Fried Frank or Davis Polk NY? Forum

[Anonymous User]

Interested in corporate transactional practice. Interested in strength of practice areas, culture, anything that could be material in this evaluation. Thanks!

[JFrench]

Interested in corporate transactional practice. Interested in strength of practice areas, culture, anything that could be material in this evaluation. Thanks!

I’m a law student also but...Davis Polk, and it’s not even close.

[LBJ's Hair]

what's stopping you from taking DPW?

[Ultramar vistas]

Worth noting that Davis Polk was off-the-charts bad (well, essentially bottom of the charts) on Amlaw’s recent associate quality of life survey.

https://www.law.com/americanlawyer/2019 ... -rankings/

I don’t know how meaningful that kind of stuff is to you, but I would certainly weigh it on the overall scale. Believe me, once you’re doing this job every day, the name on the door means a lot less than the satisfaction you have while doing it.

[LBJ's Hair]

Worth noting that Davis Polk was off-the-charts bad (well, essentially bottom of the charts) on Amlaw’s recent associate quality of life survey.

https://www.law.com/americanlawyer/2019 ... -rankings/

I don’t know how meaningful that kind of stuff is to you, but I would certainly weigh it on the overall scale. Believe me, once you’re doing this job every day, the name on the door means a lot less than the satisfaction you have while doing it.

putting aside response bias, sample size is 17....

[Anonymous User]

Worth noting that Davis Polk was off-the-charts bad (well, essentially bottom of the charts) on Amlaw’s recent associate quality of life survey.

https://www.law.com/americanlawyer/2019 ... -rankings/

I don’t know how meaningful that kind of stuff is to you, but I would certainly weigh it on the overall scale. Believe me, once you’re doing this job every day, the name on the door means a lot less than the satisfaction you have while doing it.

IDK what this survey is measuring but if it's supposed to be work life balance, absolutely no way Susman should be in the top 10

I have no idea, because I'm at one of the higher ranking firms on the list and think its fake news lol.

Though maybe seeing like Kirkland and Cahill, for instance, a factor could be above market bonuses.

[LBJ's Hair]

Worth noting that Davis Polk was off-the-charts bad (well, essentially bottom of the charts) on Amlaw’s recent associate quality of life survey.

https://www.law.com/americanlawyer/2019 ... -rankings/

I don’t know how meaningful that kind of stuff is to you, but I would certainly weigh it on the overall scale. Believe me, once you’re doing this job every day, the name on the door means a lot less than the satisfaction you have while doing it.

IDK what this survey is measuring but if it's supposed to be work life balance, absolutely no way Susman should be in the top 10

I have no idea, because I'm at one of the higher ranking firms on the list and think its fake news lol.

Though maybe seeing like Kirkland and Cahill, for instance, a factor could be above market bonuses.

I edited, my bad--number of issues with this lol

[Anonymous User]

what's stopping you from taking DPW?

I have an interest in real estate, and heard some interesting stuff about Davis Polk's culture. Don't know if the overall "prestige" at DP would trump real estate/asset management strengths at FF.

[Anonymous User]

I got an extremely positive impression of FF-NY's culture.

[Anonymous User]

what's stopping you from taking DPW?

I have an interest in real estate, and heard some interesting stuff about Davis Polk's culture. Don't know if the overall "prestige" at DP would trump real estate/asset management strengths at FF.

I work at FF, so take with a grain of salt. The RE practice is great. Really top notch. Any firm will take a FF RE lateral.

The culture is also really great. I don't know anyone at DPW that likes their job. I know a lot that like their jobs at FF (but I also obviously know a lot more people in general at FF).

The asset management practice is also very strong.

With that said, if you want to do M&A or something like that, I don't see how you can pick DPW over FF. FF is good and all but DPW is one of the top firms for other corporate practice groups. If you know what you are actually interested in, FF can be a fine choice.

[DoveBodyWash]

If you're set on real estate then FF. A small slice of DPW's RE group (already tiny group, they occupy less than half a floor) gets to do what I imagine are "real" RE deals and the rest just provide diligence support to M&A and sometimes bankruptcy. Their head partner was actually brought in from Fried Frank 6-7 years ago to help build that group out but looks like results are lukewarm.

ETA: Good chance you never get to rotate through RE at DPW in the first place. It's a small and popular group. Zero chance you get to rotate through both fund management and RE. You'd almost certainly have to sacrifice one rotation (i.e., FIG or finance) to have a chance at RE.

[Anonymous User]

what's stopping you from taking DPW?

I have an interest in real estate, and heard some interesting stuff about Davis Polk's culture. Don't know if the overall "prestige" at DP would trump real estate/asset management strengths at FF.

I work at FF, so take with a grain of salt. The RE practice is great. Really top notch. Any firm will take a FF RE lateral.

The culture is also really great. I don't know anyone at DPW that likes their job. I know a lot that like their jobs at FF (but I also obviously know a lot more people in general at FF).

The asset management practice is also very strong.

With that said, if you want to do M&A or something like that, I don't see how you can pick DPW over FF. FF is good and all but DPW is one of the top firms for other corporate practice groups. If you know what you are actually interested in, FF can be a fine choice.

Very nice to get an inside perspective. As a FF summer, would it be possible to get assignments from both asset management and real estate? How difficult is it to get real estate as an associate? Can you work in both departments as an associate?

[Anonymous User]

If you're set on real estate then FF. A small slice of DPW's RE group (already tiny group, they occupy less than half a floor) gets to do what I imagine are "real" RE deals and the rest just provide diligence support to M&A and sometimes bankruptcy. Their head partner was actually brought in from Fried Frank 6-7 years ago to help build that group out but looks like results are lukewarm.

ETA: Good chance you never get to rotate through RE at DPW in the first place. It's a small and popular group. Zero chance you get to rotate through both fund management and RE. You'd almost certainly have to sacrifice one rotation (i.e., FIG or finance) to have a chance at RE.

My understanding, based on some insider knowledge, is that it's pretty do-able to request rotations at DPW through groups to have a strong interest in. So the standard is 2 rotations, but you can request a 3rd, for example. Maybe things have changed, very recently?

I'm curious what the other poster said about "interesting" things about DPW's culture. Interesting-good, or interesting-bad?

[DoveBodyWash]

If you're set on real estate then FF. A small slice of DPW's RE group (already tiny group, they occupy less than half a floor) gets to do what I imagine are "real" RE deals and the rest just provide diligence support to M&A and sometimes bankruptcy. Their head partner was actually brought in from Fried Frank 6-7 years ago to help build that group out but looks like results are lukewarm.

ETA: Good chance you never get to rotate through RE at DPW in the first place. It's a small and popular group. Zero chance you get to rotate through both fund management and RE. You'd almost certainly have to sacrifice one rotation (i.e., FIG or finance) to have a chance at RE.

My understanding, based on some insider knowledge, is that it's pretty do-able to request rotations at DPW through groups to have a strong interest in. So the standard is 2 rotations, but you can request a 3rd, for example. Maybe things have changed, very recently?

I'm curious what the other poster said about "interesting" things about DPW's culture. Interesting-good, or interesting-bad?

You could always request a third rotation if you didn't like your first two (or they didn't like you) but most people would want to avoid a third trip as a rotator. Not really a desirable outcome and really only works with larger groups that have the capacity for it. Small/popular groups like RE--even if you could get a third rotation--are far less likely to ultimately take you full-time afterwards.

You can request rotations you have a strong interest in, of course. Everyone does. The internal policy is to do their best to get you into at least one of your preferred rotations, which is what they believe is the fairest way to balance requests with firm needs. But firm needs will trump whatever your interests are every time. If finance or cap markets needs more juniors and RE is slow, then it's over.

Why roll the dice with the hope of getting into a weaker RE group? If OP only has a mild curiosity towards RE and wants to experience the bigger groups too, then FF makes less sense.

[Anonymous User]

what's stopping you from taking DPW?

I have an interest in real estate, and heard some interesting stuff about Davis Polk's culture. Don't know if the overall "prestige" at DP would trump real estate/asset management strengths at FF.

I work at FF, so take with a grain of salt. The RE practice is great. Really top notch. Any firm will take a FF RE lateral.

The culture is also really great. I don't know anyone at DPW that likes their job. I know a lot that like their jobs at FF (but I also obviously know a lot more people in general at FF).

The asset management practice is also very strong.

With that said, if you want to do M&A or something like that, I don't see how you can pick DPW over FF. FF is good and all but DPW is one of the top firms for other corporate practice groups. If you know what you are actually interested in, FF can be a fine choice.

Very nice to get an inside perspective. As a FF summer, would it be possible to get assignments from both asset management and real estate? How difficult is it to get real estate as an associate? Can you work in both departments as an associate?

Former non-RE FF associate here. I'm not sure how the summer program/first year is working now as they were in the process of overhauling it while I was there, so take this with a grain of salt, but if you want RE at FF I would make your interest known ASAP. The RE group is very tight-knit and they pull almost all of their first-years from people who worked with them the summer before. If you don't do work for the RE group as a summer you have a slim chance of getting placed in that group when you come back as a first-year. That being said, you can definitely get assignments from RE and Asset Mgmt as a summer. But if you think you want RE I would bang that drum early and often.

[QContinuum]

I work at FF, so take with a grain of salt. The RE practice is great. Really top notch. Any firm will take a FF RE lateral.

The culture is also really great. I don't know anyone at DPW that likes their job. I know a lot that like their jobs at FF (but I also obviously know a lot more people in general at FF).

The asset management practice is also very strong.

With that said, if you want to do M&A or something like that, I don't see how you can pick DPW over FF. FF is good and all but DPW is one of the top firms for other corporate practice groups. If you know what you are actually interested in, FF can be a fine choice.

I don't work at FF but I second the above. If OP's laser-focused on RE, then they should go to FF. But if OP's just mildly curious about RE and wants to spend the summer exploring (which is perfectly fine, there's usually no good reason why any rising 2L should be laser-focused on a particular practice area), then DPW's the obvious choice.

[Anonymous User]

what's stopping you from taking DPW?

I have an interest in real estate, and heard some interesting stuff about Davis Polk's culture. Don't know if the overall "prestige" at DP would trump real estate/asset management strengths at FF.

I work at FF, so take with a grain of salt. The RE practice is great. Really top notch. Any firm will take a FF RE lateral.

The culture is also really great. I don't know anyone at DPW that likes their job. I know a lot that like their jobs at FF (but I also obviously know a lot more people in general at FF).

The asset management practice is also very strong.

With that said, if you want to do M&A or something like that, I don't see how you can pick DPW over FF. FF is good and all but DPW is one of the top firms for other corporate practice groups. If you know what you are actually interested in, FF can be a fine choice.

Very nice to get an inside perspective. As a FF summer, would it be possible to get assignments from both asset management and real estate? How difficult is it to get real estate as an associate? Can you work in both departments as an associate?

Former non-RE FF associate here. I'm not sure how the summer program/first year is working now as they were in the process of overhauling it while I was there, so take this with a grain of salt, but if you want RE at FF I would make your interest known ASAP. The RE group is very tight-knit and they pull almost all of their first-years from people who worked with them the summer before. If you don't do work for the RE group as a summer you have a slim chance of getting placed in that group when you come back as a first-year. That being said, you can definitely get assignments from RE and Asset Mgmt as a summer. But if you think you want RE I would bang that drum early and often.

Appreciate it. Is that something one would do while at the firm? Beforehand? Is there a formal process for that?

[Anonymous User]

what's stopping you from taking DPW?

I have an interest in real estate, and heard some interesting stuff about Davis Polk's culture. Don't know if the overall "prestige" at DP would trump real estate/asset management strengths at FF.

I work at FF, so take with a grain of salt. The RE practice is great. Really top notch. Any firm will take a FF RE lateral.

The culture is also really great. I don't know anyone at DPW that likes their job. I know a lot that like their jobs at FF (but I also obviously know a lot more people in general at FF).

The asset management practice is also very strong.

With that said, if you want to do M&A or something like that, I don't see how you can pick DPW over FF. FF is good and all but DPW is one of the top firms for other corporate practice groups. If you know what you are actually interested in, FF can be a fine choice.

Very nice to get an inside perspective. As a FF summer, would it be possible to get assignments from both asset management and real estate? How difficult is it to get real estate as an associate? Can you work in both departments as an associate?

Former non-RE FF associate here. I'm not sure how the summer program/first year is working now as they were in the process of overhauling it while I was there, so take this with a grain of salt, but if you want RE at FF I would make your interest known ASAP. The RE group is very tight-knit and they pull almost all of their first-years from people who worked with them the summer before. If you don't do work for the RE group as a summer you have a slim chance of getting placed in that group when you come back as a first-year. That being said, you can definitely get assignments from RE and Asset Mgmt as a summer. But if you think you want RE I would bang that drum early and often.

Appreciate it. Is that something one would do while at the firm? Beforehand? Is there a formal process for that?

FF associate here again. Echoing above in that you should make your interest in RE known going in (you will get a group preference sheet a few weeks before the summer begins, rank RE #1 to make sure you get work in it, or you can even ask to do a second look and to talk to some RE people--that will let recruiting know your interest). You will definitely be able to try asset management work as a summer. People who want RE generally get it, just make your interest known. I've never heard of anyone wanting asset management not getting that group.

There are no associate that formally work in multiple groups. Every once in awhile a corp. associate will be asked to help out in another dept. (i.e. a M&A associate helping out in finance), but that won't be your main gig and I have never heard of someone from RE doing corporate work (except for corporate RE associates). The only exception to this is that sometimes associates will switch groups, which happens with a few people every year.

[Anonymous User]

what's stopping you from taking DPW?

I have an interest in real estate, and heard some interesting stuff about Davis Polk's culture. Don't know if the overall "prestige" at DP would trump real estate/asset management strengths at FF.

I work at FF, so take with a grain of salt. The RE practice is great. Really top notch. Any firm will take a FF RE lateral.

The culture is also really great. I don't know anyone at DPW that likes their job. I know a lot that like their jobs at FF (but I also obviously know a lot more people in general at FF).

The asset management practice is also very strong.

With that said, if you want to do M&A or something like that, I don't see how you can pick DPW over FF. FF is good and all but DPW is one of the top firms for other corporate practice groups. If you know what you are actually interested in, FF can be a fine choice.

Very nice to get an inside perspective. As a FF summer, would it be possible to get assignments from both asset management and real estate? How difficult is it to get real estate as an associate? Can you work in both departments as an associate?

Former non-RE FF associate here. I'm not sure how the summer program/first year is working now as they were in the process of overhauling it while I was there, so take this with a grain of salt, but if you want RE at FF I would make your interest known ASAP. The RE group is very tight-knit and they pull almost all of their first-years from people who worked with them the summer before. If you don't do work for the RE group as a summer you have a slim chance of getting placed in that group when you come back as a first-year. That being said, you can definitely get assignments from RE and Asset Mgmt as a summer. But if you think you want RE I would bang that drum early and often.

Appreciate it. Is that something one would do while at the firm? Beforehand? Is there a formal process for that?

FF associate here again. Echoing above in that you should make your interest in RE known going in (you will get a group preference sheet a few weeks before the summer begins, rank RE #1 to make sure you get work in it, or you can even ask to do a second look and to talk to some RE people--that will let recruiting know your interest). You will definitely be able to try asset management work as a summer. People who want RE generally get it, just make your interest known. I've never heard of anyone wanting asset management not getting that group.

There are no associate that formally work in multiple groups. Every once in awhile a corp. associate will be asked to help out in another dept. (i.e. a M&A associate helping out in finance), but that won't be your main gig and I have never heard of someone from RE doing corporate work (except for corporate RE associates). The only exception to this is that sometimes associates will switch groups, which happens with a few people every year.

In terms of long-term career, is it wise to specialize in RE, or is asset management or some other corporate group better to get a broad base of knowledge, perhaps of other asset classes?

[Anonymous User]

In terms of long-term career, is it wise to specialize in RE, or is asset management or some other corporate group better to get a broad base of knowledge, perhaps of other asset classes?

I'm the non-RE FF anon above. Not sure if you've already made this decision, but to be clear, asset management at FF = fund formation. You will represent PE or hedge fund sponsors (Goldman Sachs, Bain Capital, Brookfield Asset Mgmt, etc) in the formation and launching of their funds. You draft the offering documents, the operating documents of the fund, and deal with investors. It's highly technical and you generally aren't dealing with business folks, but in-house lawyers. It's a niche practice in the sense that the skills you develop are particular to the PE and hedge fund (and VC, but FF does not represent VC funds generally) industries. It's not something that will give you a "broad base of knowledge" like general corporate work or M&A. That being said the FF fund formation group is highly regarded and the QoL is pretty good for biglaw (more of a 9-9 type practice then the all-nighters you might experience in RE or M&A), so if you think the above sounds interesting to you, it's certainly worth exploring. Some people find the actual work incredibly boring. Note that exit options will be pretty limited to PE funds, banks, hedge funds, etc.

[Anonymous User]

Like some people above said, unless you are laser-focused on RE, you should go to DPW. Except in rare circumstances, I just don't see any wisdom in committing to one specialty as a law student. Another note about law firm reputations and prestige, I am a 3rd year in NYC and I can tell you where you start off your career matters so much. For corporate generally, the lateral opportunities (both for biglaw and in-house) for a midlevel/junior working at a firm like DPW, STB, Cravath are much wider than they are for someone working at a firm like FF, Dechert, etc.