Second-tier DC firms vs. NY V5 Forum

[Anonymous User]

Exclusively interested in litigation. Potentially have the grades for a feeder clerkship. Deciding between one of the firms ranked 4-10 in Vault DC and a V5 in NYC with a strong lit practice (not WLRK).

Particularly interested in effect on clerkships and post-clerkship lit boutique hiring. Obviously there are lots of other considerations, but this is one I know nothing about. For those considerations, does the choice matter at all? On the one hand, DC has lots of the top boutiques, appellate work that could be good for clerkships, and is the more "prestigious" and selective market, but on the other hand, I'm not in the running for the top top firms there and the NYC firm is no slouch.

[Anonymous User]

I don't think this choice really moves the needle one way or another. If you're particularly interested in 2d Cir./SDNY/EDNY maybe the NYC firm is marginally better, but that's all that occurs to me. Unless you were headed to a truly exceptional firm like WLRK or a top lit boutique, in my experience judges and their clerks don't really care about fine gradations between markets and firms. My judge (non-2 but 9/DC) didn't care. That said, if you're gunning for NYC clerkships in particular there may be some benefit there. I'd be curious to hear from folks who clerked on one of those courts.

[Elston Gunn]

Extremely unlikely to matter for clerkships. Generically, I would say that you’re much better off taking the DC firm over the NY V5 for litigation — your life will be better and there won’t be any prestige/exit options downgrade among litigators. (Indeed, people in these circles understand it’s harder to get a job at Arnold & Porter than Skadden NY, to the extent anyone cares.) But a bit hard to say without naming the firms.

[Anonymous User]

Most NY V5s develop their reputation on corporate - not lit - practices, so it's hard to draw a comparison without more specificity about the DC firm.

[Anonymous User]

NY firms are Cravath and Kirkland, DC firms are Latham and Sidley

[2013]

NY firms are Cravath and Kirkland, DC firms are Latham and Sidley

Cravath

[Anonymous User]

NY firms are Cravath and Kirkland, DC firms are Latham and Sidley

Cravath

This does not answer the question at all (unless you’re just not explaining yourself).

[Res Ipsa Loquitter]

if you think you'll be happier living in DC, take Latham, but don't do it for an imagined clerkship/prestige boost. Only selectivity obsessed law students would look at a Cravath associate and think "But that guy works in an easy-to-enter market compared to DC!"

Don't let the DC > NY circlejerk push you toward a worse firm

edit: accidental anon, my bad

[QContinuum]

if you think you'll be happier living in DC, take Latham, but don't do it for an imagined clerkship/prestige boost. Only selectivity obsessed law students would look at a Cravath associate and think "But that guy works in an easy-to-enter market compared to DC!"

Don't let the DC > NY circlejerk push you toward a worse firm

Res Ipsa has the right of it, IMO. No one outside TLS is gonna look down on Cravath for not being a D.C. firm.

[Elston Gunn]

I personally would go to Sidley DC with these options (Latham is to be avoided in all markets imo), but, yes, Cravath is certainly the most prestigious of your options. Not that judges will care.

[QContinuum]

(Latham is to be avoided in all markets imo)

Were the infamous Lathamings of last recession across all offices?

[Res Ipsa Loquitter]

Before "Latham" was a verb, it was considered a great place to work. Is Sidley a safe place to be in the next recession? Who knows.

Cravath is your most recession-proof option. no dead-weight satellite offices, among the most profitable firms, very diverse practice, can't axe all their juniors because they homegrow their midlevels/partners.

The worst they'd do is throw you 40% salary and a one year deferral, while other firms would be straight up pulling offers.

[Elston Gunn]

(Latham is to be avoided in all markets imo)

Were the infamous Lathamings of last recession across all offices?

Honestly I don’t know, but unless I had a very good reason to think the office had a different approach — both on that front and their to-this-day continuing practice of pushing our associates earlier and more often than their peers and even much less profitable firms — than I would not go there if I had any comparable option.

[Elston Gunn]

Before "Latham" was a verb, it was considered a great place to work. Is Sidley a safe place to be in the next recession? Who knows.

Cravath is your most recession-proof option. no dead-weight satellite offices, among the most profitable firms, very diverse practice, can't axe all their juniors because they homegrow their midlevels/partners.

The worst they'd do is throw you 40% salary and a one year deferral, while other firms would be straight up pulling offers.

Sure, if your only concern is surviving if another deep recession hits, you should go to Cravath with these options. Personally, I would certainly consider that fact, but I’d also consider that Cravath is an especially miserable place to work, and you’re not really giving up anything by going to a very good, respected firm in DC where the pay is the same and the expectations are lower.

[Res Ipsa Loquitter]

Before "Latham" was a verb, it was considered a great place to work. Is Sidley a safe place to be in the next recession? Who knows.

Cravath is your most recession-proof option. no dead-weight satellite offices, among the most profitable firms, very diverse practice, can't axe all their juniors because they homegrow their midlevels/partners.

The worst they'd do is throw you 40% salary and a one year deferral, while other firms would be straight up pulling offers.

Sure, if your only concern is surviving if another deep recession hits, you should go to Cravath with these options. Personally, I would certainly consider that fact, but I’d also consider that Cravath is an especially miserable place to work, and you’re not really giving up anything by going to a very good, respected firm in DC where the pay is the same and the expectations are lower.

I agree with you for the most part. Sidley DC is an easily defensible choice for OP. But he should choose DC for rational reasons, not because it's the more selective market.

But it's a Saturday so I'll do this anyway:

*Fade in* [Law Review meeting begins]

Girl: "Where are you gonna be this summer?"

OP: "Sidley"

Girl: "Not bad, but I usually date V10 summers only"

OP: "It's Sidley DC. I turned down Cravath for that shit, baby."

Girl [to friend later]: "Did [OP] get a lot hotter over the summer? I have such a huge crush on him. Did you hear he got Sidley DC?"

[Anonymous User]

I have decent but not fantastic reasons to believe both that Latham DC was mostly protected in the last recession and that Sidley is not in a good position in a recession.

Should I even be considering recession-proofing if I’m not starting until 2022 at the earliest? I think CW is that the next recession will have hit by then.

[BlackAndOrange84]

Re Latham, avoid it like the fucking plague:
https://abovethelaw.com/2009/02/nationw ... 250-staff/

At 8:00 a.m. Eastern time, managing partner Bob Dell sent out an email announcing that the firm is laying off 190 associates and 250 staff. These numbers are on top of any “stealth layoffs” that may have previously occurred at the firm in the past year.

. . . .

According to Dell’s email, the cuts constitute approximately 12 percent of associates and 10 percent of paralegals and support staff. One LW tipster, however, tells us that in terms of U.S. associates being laid off, the number may be closer to 20 percent.

https://abovethelaw.com/2010/06/how-did ... r-layoffs/

Regular readers of Above the Law know that the one-time-only [layoff] spin is false. Latham started conducting stealth layoffs before its 440 person bloodbath, and the people who were stealthily let go in December and January didn’t receive the generous severance package given to the ones laid off in February. That kind of behavior breeds animosity from those who were quietly shoved out of the door.

. . . .

And, of course, Latham laid off first-years — people with no work experience and no chance to prove themselves, who most likely didn’t “deserve” to be laid off after just a few months on the job. And now people who have had a hell of a time breaking back into Biglaw. It’s hard to get a job when you have almost no work experience while carrying around a pink slip.

Re Sidley v. Cravath, I think this comes down to preference for DC vs. NYC, appetite for grinding hours, appetite for pure prestige, and a more formal culture vs. Sidley's midwestern-nice culture. Personally, for me, this wouldn't be an easy choice.

ETA to add more material on why Latham is qualitatively different from other firms that laid off associates back in 08–09. See also: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 3&t=124209

[Slippin' Jimmy]

Before "Latham" was a verb, it was considered a great place to work. Is Sidley a safe place to be in the next recession? Who knows.

Cravath is your most recession-proof option. no dead-weight satellite offices, among the most profitable firms, very diverse practice, can't axe all their juniors because they homegrow their midlevels/partners.

The worst they'd do is throw you 40% salary and a one year deferral, while other firms would be straight up pulling offers.

Sure, if your only concern is surviving if another deep recession hits, you should go to Cravath with these options. Personally, I would certainly consider that fact, but I’d also consider that Cravath is an especially miserable place to work, and you’re not really giving up anything by going to a very good, respected firm in DC where the pay is the same and the expectations are lower.

I agree with you for the most part. Sidley DC is an easily defensible choice for OP. But he should choose DC for rational reasons, not because it's the more selective market.

But it's a Saturday so I'll do this anyway:

*Fade in* [Law Review meeting begins]

Girl: "Where are you gonna be this summer?"

OP: "Sidley"

Girl: "Not bad, but I usually date V10 summers only"

OP: "It's Sidley DC. I turned down Cravath for that shit, baby."

Girl [to friend later]: "Did [OP] get a lot hotter over the summer? I have such a huge crush on him. Did you hear he got Sidley DC?"

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