Dallas: 2019 State of the Market Forum

[Anonymous User]

I know the forum had a previous discussion regarding the state of the market about a year ago, but I was wondering what everyone’s thoughts are now? Who is now in tier one/two/three on the transactional and litigation sides? How have Kirkland and Winston performed in their arrival? Are old established firms (akin, Gibson) still performing well? Best places for incoming law students to go/associates to lateral to? Open to anywhere the conversation goes.

[Anonymous User]

I just finished up my 2L SA in a Dallas transactional practice, and here are some of my thoughts, starting with a rough breakdown of the tiers as I see them (and I’m sure I forgot some firms):

- Tier 1A: VE, KE, Weil, Sidley
- Tier 1B: GDC, Jones Day, Akin Gump, Winston, BB, HayBoo
- Tier 2: HAK, Locke Lord
- Tier 3: Fulbright, Gardere, Jackson Walker, Winstead
- Tier 4 (the rest): Bracewell, Strasburger, HK, MWE, Baker McKenzie, etc. I admittedly don’t know much about any of the firms in this tier

Other points:

- Calling GDC an “old established firm” is kind of bizarre in Dallas. The two main “old established firms” are Baker Botts and V&E. Fulbright used to be one of the big three in TX but has fallen off pretty hard (at least for transactional), while VE seems to be the pretty clear top dog of the old guard.

- Houston seems to have a more settled hierarchy than Dallas does. From what I’ve gathered, the top 3 transactional shops in Houston are pretty clearly VE, KE, and LW in some order. In Dallas, I think there’s a lot more fluidity at the top of the list. I’m sure there are good arguments to be made for some firms in my Dallas 1B Tier to jump to 1A, and vice versa.

- I’m not nearly as familiar with the Dallas litigation scene as I am with the transactional scene, but I’ve heard good things about GDC, McKool Smith, Winston, VE, and Sidley.

[Anonymous User]

[quote="Anonymous User"]
- Houston seems to have a more settled hierarchy than Dallas does. From what I’ve gathered, the top 3 transactional shops in Houston are pretty clearly VE, KE, and LW in some order. In Dallas, I think there’s a lot more fluidity at the top of the list. I’m sure there are good arguments to be made for some firms in my Dallas 1B Tier to jump to 1A, and vice versa.

This sounds about right to me. BB probably slides into 4th place for Houston after that.

[Anonymous User]

Does anyone know how difficult lateraling from Houston to Dallas is on the lit side (if it matters)?

[Anonymous User]

Granted this is all secondhand, but I have heard mixed reviews about KE Dallas. Apparently they are having trouble generating their own work and the office is largely serving as an overflow for KE Houston.

[Anonymous User]

I just finished up my 2L SA in a Dallas transactional practice, and here are some of my thoughts, starting with a rough breakdown of the tiers as I see them (and I’m sure I forgot some firms):

- Tier 1A: VE, KE, Weil, Sidley
- Tier 1B: GDC, Jones Day, Akin Gump, Winston, BB, HayBoo
- Tier 2: HAK, Locke Lord
- Tier 3: Fulbright, Gardere, Jackson Walker, Winstead
- Tier 4 (the rest): Bracewell, Strasburger, HK, MWE, Baker McKenzie, etc. I admittedly don’t know much about any of the firms in this tier

Other points:

- Calling GDC an “old established firm” is kind of bizarre in Dallas. The two main “old established firms” are Baker Botts and V&E. Fulbright used to be one of the big three in TX but has fallen off pretty hard (at least for transactional), while VE seems to be the pretty clear top dog of the old guard.

- Houston seems to have a more settled hierarchy than Dallas does. From what I’ve gathered, the top 3 transactional shops in Houston are pretty clearly VE, KE, and LW in some order. In Dallas, I think there’s a lot more fluidity at the top of the list. I’m sure there are good arguments to be made for some firms in my Dallas 1B Tier to jump to 1A, and vice versa.

- I’m not nearly as familiar with the Dallas litigation scene as I am with the transactional scene, but I’ve heard good things about GDC, McKool Smith, Winston, VE, and Sidley.

The list shakes out similarly in litigation.
- Tier 1A: Winston, Gibson Dunn, BB, Sidley
- Tier 1B: V&E, Jones Day, Akin Gump, NRF
- Tier 2: Haynes and Boone, Locke Lord, Thompson & Knight
- Tier 3: Jackson Walker, Winstead, Gardere
- Tier 4: The rest.

Dallas just isn't the boutique market that Houston is. McKool Smith is the big name in town. Lynn Pinker and Figari & Davenport are good firms. A lot of the old Dallas boutiques have dissolved or been absorbed by big firms (e.g., Sayles Werbner, Gruber Hurst).

[Anonymous User]

Granted this is all secondhand, but I have heard mixed reviews about KE Dallas. Apparently they are having trouble generating their own work and the office is largely serving as an overflow for KE Houston.

This would probably be my biggest concern about going to that office - it's increasingly leveraged and seemingly dependent on importing work. Obviously happy to be corrected by someone who knows a little more about the situation, but K&E is pretty up front about one of the primary reasons for having that office is to widen the associate pool they can draw from as HOU has become pretty competitive on the hiring front.

I think HayBoo and BB would feel a little hard done to be put in the 1B tier, and of the non-native firms I would probably argue GDC is the one to watch. Weil and Sidley have been here a long time and are doing fine, just wouldn't think of them ahead of BB and HB. Winstead also has a really prominent real estate group so I guess I think of them better than as a tier 3.

I'm also coming from a transactional perspective and don't really know how lit would shake out in a tier list

[Anonymous User]

I just finished up my 2L SA in a Dallas transactional practice, and here are some of my thoughts, starting with a rough breakdown of the tiers as I see them (and I’m sure I forgot some firms):

- Tier 1A: VE, KE, Weil, Sidley
- Tier 1B: GDC, Jones Day, Akin Gump, Winston, BB, HayBoo
- Tier 2: HAK, Locke Lord
- Tier 3: Fulbright, Gardere, Jackson Walker, Winstead
- Tier 4 (the rest): Bracewell, Strasburger, HK, MWE, Baker McKenzie, etc. I admittedly don’t know much about any of the firms in this tier

Other points:

- Calling GDC an “old established firm” is kind of bizarre in Dallas. The two main “old established firms” are Baker Botts and V&E. Fulbright used to be one of the big three in TX but has fallen off pretty hard (at least for transactional), while VE seems to be the pretty clear top dog of the old guard.

- Houston seems to have a more settled hierarchy than Dallas does. From what I’ve gathered, the top 3 transactional shops in Houston are pretty clearly VE, KE, and LW in some order. In Dallas, I think there’s a lot more fluidity at the top of the list. I’m sure there are good arguments to be made for some firms in my Dallas 1B Tier to jump to 1A, and vice versa.

- I’m not nearly as familiar with the Dallas litigation scene as I am with the transactional scene, but I’ve heard good things about GDC, McKool Smith, Winston, VE, and Sidley.

Respectively disagree. I'm a fourth year corporate associate in Dallas that has been at a couple of your top tiered firms. Here are my thoughts:

Tier 1: V&E, GDC, Weil (I'll get to K&E later in my post)
Tier 2: JD, Sidley, HB, BB
Tier 3: Akin, Locke, others

V&E Dallas has lost a lot of their top Dallas people through the various national law firm raids. 95% of their work is energy, oil and gas, driven from the Houston office. This is the gold standard name in the state, but they've absolutely lost their foothold overall. I have multiple friends there that have been slow for a long time. The rainmaker partners that remain there, are old and being driven out slowly, as most biglaw firms do after year ~65.

GDC has most of the Dallas F500 clientele, has the top former V&E rainmakers and has made partners in the corporate and litigation practices recently. They're extremely selective though and care about grades. I don't know how anyone would view Sidley Dallas over GDC Dallas.

Weil had a bad rep the past few years but has been recovering and becoming a top player again in the market.

I think it's too early to rank K&E anywhere without it being a total guess. They've been open only a year. Here's what I've heard about K&E Dallas, so just providing another data point: most of their work is overflow from the Houston office. It's all private equity oil and gas (and that's where they view and desire that office continuing to head, they told multiple friends that did lateral interviews there and ultimately passed on that office). The few partners that they brought over from other firms weren't able to bring the book that K&E anticipated them bringing. Multiple clients stayed with V&E, for example. In addition, I've heard that many associates are slow, yet they continue to expand the office very quickly (and disproportionately) as compared to other Dallas offices. I'd caution anyone before accepting an offer there, unless you're content doing PE oil and gas deals that Houston didn't want/have capacity for.

[Anonymous User]

So just quickly jumping back in - I would bet the above is coming from an M&A perspective, which is fine but misses the substantial CapM and Finance practices in town. One of the reasons I didn't really want to do a "tier list" is because my vision is clouded by the reality of being in a practice group. That also strikes me as a little too bull on GDC and bear on V&E, but obviously both are great landing spots for someone trying to land in Dallas.

[Anonymous User]

Again, not sure where you’re coming from. Look at the league tables and band rankings, Dallas capital markets is essentially non-existent outside of Energy oil and gas clients that come from Houston. If you want securities work, you go to Houston.

Admittedly not sure about finance work generally, but I think most people think M&A and securities (but see my point above for securities) work when they are discussing general transactional—not the subgroups.

[Anonymous User]

There was a very comprehensive thread on the Dallas market in 2018 and it remains basically accurate as far as I can tell. (see http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 3&t=296826). Some of the above posts are inaccurate and misleading. For example, Weil Dallas has been a sinking ship for years. Putting them at tier 1A for anything is highly dubious at best. Their lit team bolted to Sidley, and their corp team has been bleeding to Kirkland et al.

[Anonymous User]

For lit, if you want substantive trial work and can handle the rougher culture, McKool might be worth exploring. As for general selectivity and prestige (in lit), GDC is in a tier its own, then followed by Winston, McKool, V&E, Sidley, etc. Sidley is known for tough personalities in lit. Don't know much about corporate.

[Anonymous User]

There was a very comprehensive thread on the Dallas market in 2018 and it remains basically accurate as far as I can tell. (see http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 3&t=296826). Some of the above posts are inaccurate and misleading. For example, Weil Dallas has been a sinking ship for years. Putting them at tier 1A for anything is highly dubious at best. Their lit team bolted to Sidley, and their corp team has been bleeding to Kirkland et al.

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[Anonymous User]

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[Anonymous User]

Weil Dallas is no more of a sinking ship then Sidley, V&E or JD as all the referenced firms had defections when K&E came to town. It’s the nature of the Dallas market to see movement when new shops come to town. I have friends in the corp group and not sure what makes it a “sinking ship.” My understanding is that a Winston partner rejoined Weil recently as well.

[Anonymous User]

Weil Dallas is no more of a sinking ship then Sidley, V&E or JD as all the referenced firms had defections when K&E came to town. It’s the nature of the Dallas market to see movement when new shops come to town. I have friends in the corp group and not sure what makes it a “sinking ship.” My understanding is that a Winston partner rejoined Weil recently as well.

Any more info on Weil Dallas would be greatly appreciated please!

[Anonymous User]

I also disagree with the idea that Kirkland is “sinking” Weil. Kirkland opened their office, it was exciting, they took a couple Weil of counsel and a couple associates but my understanding is they didn’t really take any significant business from Weil. I’m sure Weil has since replaced the people they lost and they’re now just doing deals like normal. But I think it is an interesting example of the state of the Dallas market.

On the one hand, you have firms like Weil. It’s been in the market for 30+ years. It has a handful of corporate partners with good enough deal flow to support a team of associates. They’ve carved out a handful of Dallas clients that are willing to pay NY rates and they also service some of the clients from other offices. For a firm like Weil, Dallas is a good market to have a presence in but the firm probably doesn’t view it as a growth opportunity. It’s not that exciting but you kind of know what you are getting into.

Then you have firms like Kirkland who have recently decided to give Dallas a try and it’s genuinely exciting for those involved. I’m sure there is an entrepreneurial vibe that has helped them in recruiting. And you look at what they did in Houston and it’s impressive. But you can’t be sure how it will turn out so it has an element of risk. They’ve been aggressive in hiring and it sounds like Houston has enough work to keep them busy but it’s yet to be seen if they are going to be able to build a diverse Dallas client base.

At the end of the day, I think the quality of work / deal sophistication is similar but it’s just different approaches to business development and I can see the appeal of both.

Intentionally anon.

[Anonymous User]

I just finished up my 2L SA in a Dallas transactional practice, and here are some of my thoughts, starting with a rough breakdown of the tiers as I see them (and I’m sure I forgot some firms):

- Tier 1A: VE, KE, Weil, Sidley
- Tier 1B: GDC, Jones Day, Akin Gump, Winston, BB, HayBoo
- Tier 2: HAK, Locke Lord
- Tier 3: Fulbright, Gardere, Jackson Walker, Winstead
- Tier 4 (the rest): Bracewell, Strasburger, HK, MWE, Baker McKenzie, etc. I admittedly don’t know much about any of the firms in this tier

Other points:

- Calling GDC an “old established firm” is kind of bizarre in Dallas. The two main “old established firms” are Baker Botts and V&E. Fulbright used to be one of the big three in TX but has fallen off pretty hard (at least for transactional), while VE seems to be the pretty clear top dog of the old guard.

- Houston seems to have a more settled hierarchy than Dallas does. From what I’ve gathered, the top 3 transactional shops in Houston are pretty clearly VE, KE, and LW in some order. In Dallas, I think there’s a lot more fluidity at the top of the list. I’m sure there are good arguments to be made for some firms in my Dallas 1B Tier to jump to 1A, and vice versa.

- I’m not nearly as familiar with the Dallas litigation scene as I am with the transactional scene, but I’ve heard good things about GDC, McKool Smith, Winston, VE, and Sidley.

This list forgot TK, which should go in Tier 1B imo. Currently, my Tier 1A, Tier 1B and Tier 2 would be as follows (no clue why GDC isn't in the top tier and Akin Gump corporate is really struggling in Dallas):
- Tier 1A: GDC, VE
- Tier 1B: KE, Weil, Sidley, Jones Day, Winston, BB, HayBoo, TK
- Tier 2: Akin Gump, HAK, Locke Lord

All of these firms have their plusses and minuses (as well as some question marks), and some firms clearly focus more on middle market than others, but I view this list as sort of how I would make a decision on where to go if I was a student.