Partnership Prospects Forum

[Anonymous User]

My ultimate goal is to make partner somewhere at a biglaw firm (I know it is difficult). Right now, I have offers from a V10 firm versus an offer from a V50, which has a lot more homegrown partners. If becoming partner somewhere is my ultimate goal, would it be better to take the V10 offer and then lateral to a lower vault-ranked firm and make partner? Or, would it be better for me to go to the V50 in hopes of becoming partner there?

[yodamiked]

My ultimate goal is to make partner somewhere at a biglaw firm (I know it is difficult). Right now, I have offers from a V10 firm versus an offer from a V50, which has a lot more homegrown partners. If becoming partner somewhere is my ultimate goal, would it be better to take the V10 offer and then lateral to a lower vault-ranked firm and make partner? Or, would it be better for me to go to the V50 in hopes of becoming partner there?

Others feel free to chime in and disagree with me, but if your plan is to stay in biglaw for your entire career, I would start as high up the ladder as you can (i.e., the V10). That being said, most people realize within a year or two of being in biglaw that it's incredibly difficult and unsatisfying (to be blunt, it's an inhumane career with little upside, IMO). Although I would argue, even if that's the case for you, picking the V10 may still be the best choice as it will likely give you the wider array of exit options a few years down the road (depending on where else you would want to end up if not a partner in biglaw).

[notinbiglaw]

Most partners basically clocked hours and were trusted by the partners they worked for and consequently got to inherit the clients they have been working on.

This basically means if you want to make partner, work for big firms with big and steady clients and in specialty groups where associates/partner ratios are low and the partners are old.

Another common route is a firm is developing a new practice and hires a senior from a firm with such a practice developed and the senior just grows into partner as the practice grows.

Though we hear a lot about rainmaker partners, they are in a tiny minority.

[Person1111]

My ultimate goal is to make partner somewhere at a biglaw firm (I know it is difficult). Right now, I have offers from a V10 firm versus an offer from a V50, which has a lot more homegrown partners. If becoming partner somewhere is my ultimate goal, would it be better to take the V10 offer and then lateral to a lower vault-ranked firm and make partner? Or, would it be better for me to go to the V50 in hopes of becoming partner there?

Depends on the market and whether you are in litigation or transactional. I actually think that being a homegrown associate at a firm in the lower two thirds of the V100 is an underrated path to partnership, particularly in markets other than NYC and in practices other than generic corporate/M&A.

[Anonymous User]

NYC and transactional.

[64Fl]

The only real consideration at this point should be if you're at an equity-only shop or one with two partnership tracks. Your chances of making partner at an equity-only shop are so extraordinarily low that I'd personally start at a shop with both an income partner and share partner track.

[Anonymous User]

As someone who is getting close to the end of my associate years and has seen many folks I have been close to either make it or not, I would seriously suggest you put this somewhere toward the bottom of your list of considerations when choosing a law firm. Definitely no problem with this being a goal even from day one, but there are so many factors that are way beyond your control or ability to foresee at this stage that choosing a place where you are most likely to make partner is a fool's errand. Some of these external factors include the presence of superstars in your chosen practice group a year ahead or behind you, general economic conditions, business needs of your practice group, lateral hires, sickness, family needs, etc. 8-10 years is even long enough that a firm hitting on all cylinders today could be facing serious headwinds tomorrow.

Rather than focusing on a firm's partnership prospects, you should focus on finding a place where you can become a partner, meaning a place where you can see yourself working incredibly hard for the next 15-20 years of your life and developing the skills to become a true expert in your chosen area. What kind of place that is varies wildly by personality, but that is what you are looking for, even if you have to lateral a little down the road to get there. I have seen many partners made over the years, and I have never been surprised at who made it, because they were already functioning as partners without the title. V-10 vs. V-50 has little to do with your ability to or desire to function at that level.

[Anonymous User]

As someone who is getting close to the end of my associate years and has seen many folks I have been close to either make it or not, I would seriously suggest you put this somewhere toward the bottom of your list of considerations when choosing a law firm. Definitely no problem with this being a goal even from day one, but there are so many factors that are way beyond your control or ability to foresee at this stage that choosing a place where you are most likely to make partner is a fool's errand. Some of these external factors include the presence of superstars in your chosen practice group a year ahead or behind you, general economic conditions, business needs of your practice group, lateral hires, sickness, family needs, etc. 8-10 years is even long enough that a firm hitting on all cylinders today could be facing serious headwinds tomorrow.

Rather than focusing on a firm's partnership prospects, you should focus on finding a place where you can become a partner, meaning a place where you can see yourself working incredibly hard for the next 15-20 years of your life and developing the skills to become a true expert in your chosen area. What kind of place that is varies wildly by personality, but that is what you are looking for, even if you have to lateral a little down the road to get there. I have seen many partners made over the years, and I have never been surprised at who made it, because they were already functioning as partners without the title. V-10 vs. V-50 has little to do with your ability to or desire to function at that level.

This is a great comment. As a more junior associate with one eye towards partnership this thought is both anxiety inducing and relieving, but more the latter because over my time here i've come to recognize just how out of my hands it is. Yes, I could torpedo my own chances, but also if I do everything right the timing could just be off. At which point, at least i'll have some good exit options - perhaps even partner at another firm.

[CHEESEISLYFE]

You will never become partner so this is a silly thread. You should go to the V10 as exit opportunities will be better if you want to go in-house. Easier to lateral down, hard to lateral up.
I think the majority of associates leave biglaw between 3-5 years. The statistics on becoming partner are so small - probably about 3-5%, if that - that it's fair enough to say it's not happening. So much depends on luck and personality and circumstance. There are lots of people who stay longer as they had much quieter times and billed 150-180 hour months, left at 7 most days, little to no weekend work. Then as it starts getting busy, move - take month or two off in between jobs and start in a quiet time at the new firm.
Others who work 300 hour months are less likely to survive.

[64Fl]

You will never become partner so this is a silly thread. You should go to the V10 as exit opportunities will be better if you want to go in-house. Easier to lateral down, hard to lateral up.
I think the majority of associates leave biglaw between 3-5 years. The statistics on becoming partner are so small - probably about 3-5%, if that - that it's fair enough to say it's not happening. So much depends on luck and personality and circumstance. There are lots of people who stay longer as they had much quieter times and billed 150-180 hour months, left at 7 most days, little to no weekend work. Then as it starts getting busy, move - take month or two off in between jobs and start in a quiet time at the new firm.
Others who work 300 hour months are less likely to survive.

This is a bad comment. Most people won't become judges. It's still a valid question to ask what would be the best route to become a judge. 3-5% of any summer class becomes a partner at that specific firm, but, if I had to guess, the overall partner rate of summer associates is 10% when you include those who lateral and make partner elsewhere. A 1/10 shot at making partner is not so astronomically crazy that it's worth not talking about. If that were true, then it'd be pointless to talk about the fed clerking process at Columbia, NYU, and some other fantastic schools.

[CHEESEISLYFE]

You will never become partner so this is a silly thread. You should go to the V10 as exit opportunities will be better if you want to go in-house. Easier to lateral down, hard to lateral up.
I think the majority of associates leave biglaw between 3-5 years. The statistics on becoming partner are so small - probably about 3-5%, if that - that it's fair enough to say it's not happening. So much depends on luck and personality and circumstance. There are lots of people who stay longer as they had much quieter times and billed 150-180 hour months, left at 7 most days, little to no weekend work. Then as it starts getting busy, move - take month or two off in between jobs and start in a quiet time at the new firm.
Others who work 300 hour months are less likely to survive.

This is a bad comment. Most people won't become judges. It's still a valid question to ask what would be the best route to become a judge. 3-5% of any summer class becomes a partner at that specific firm, but, if I had to guess, the overall partner rate of summer associates is 10% when you include those who lateral and make partner elsewhere. A 1/10 shot at making partner is not so astronomically crazy that it's worth not talking about. If that were true, then it'd be pointless to talk about the fed clerking process at Columbia, NYU, and some other fantastic schools.

Oh great, a law student who thinks they know it all.
No - 3-5% of making partner ANYWHERE. The statistics aren't available, but 10% is ridiculous. Legitimately absurd. Very, very associates make partner. You are seriously out of touch with the law firm business model.
Obviously depends on specific area but biglaw shifts people into high value transactional areas where burn out / turnover / demand is high, and most of these associates end up leaving to go in-house.
Becoming partner is not even on the agenda for the next 5-7 years. As someone said, there's no problem with having that as a goal - but goals change. Most first year associates have that goal at the back of their minds; few have it by the end of the first or second year. The OP still has to be a junior lawyer and get through the grunt work associated with being junior. And then responsibility / pressures change at mid-level and senior, and again as partner. Then there are family considerations etc.

Moderator note: User CHEESEISLYFE outed for anon abuse. Please refrain from using anonymous feature when not discussing personal or confidential information.

[oblig.lawl.ref]

You will never become partner so this is a silly thread. You should go to the V10 as exit opportunities will be better if you want to go in-house. Easier to lateral down, hard to lateral up.
I think the majority of associates leave biglaw between 3-5 years. The statistics on becoming partner are so small - probably about 3-5%, if that - that it's fair enough to say it's not happening. So much depends on luck and personality and circumstance. There are lots of people who stay longer as they had much quieter times and billed 150-180 hour months, left at 7 most days, little to no weekend work. Then as it starts getting busy, move - take month or two off in between jobs and start in a quiet time at the new firm.
Others who work 300 hour months are less likely to survive.

This is a bad comment. Most people won't become judges. It's still a valid question to ask what would be the best route to become a judge. 3-5% of any summer class becomes a partner at that specific firm, but, if I had to guess, the overall partner rate of summer associates is 10% when you include those who lateral and make partner elsewhere. A 1/10 shot at making partner is not so astronomically crazy that it's worth not talking about. If that were true, then it'd be pointless to talk about the fed clerking process at Columbia, NYU, and some other fantastic schools.

Oh great, a law student who thinks they know it all.
No - 3-5% of making partner ANYWHERE. The statistics aren't available, but 10% is ridiculous. Legitimately absurd. Most associates do not make partner. You are seriously out of touch with the law firm business model.
Obviously depends on specific area but biglaw shifts people into high value transactional areas where burn out / turnover / demand is high, and most of these associates end up leaving to go in-house.

This is a weird comment. It's often not pretty, and it's very rarely at a V15 or whatever, but lots of people do make partner. I know many people who have made partner. If partnership is your goal, NYC is probably the worst place to try it. But it's still possible even there and certainly possible elsewhere. It's an okay goal to have.

Believe it or not, lots of BL associates do not want to make partner. And lots that do are actually pretty bad at the job. That means that the odds for those who still really want to make partner 6+ years in and are reasonably good at their job are not unreasonably bad.

[CHEESEISLYFE]

You will never become partner so this is a silly thread. You should go to the V10 as exit opportunities will be better if you want to go in-house. Easier to lateral down, hard to lateral up.
I think the majority of associates leave biglaw between 3-5 years. The statistics on becoming partner are so small - probably about 3-5%, if that - that it's fair enough to say it's not happening. So much depends on luck and personality and circumstance. There are lots of people who stay longer as they had much quieter times and billed 150-180 hour months, left at 7 most days, little to no weekend work. Then as it starts getting busy, move - take month or two off in between jobs and start in a quiet time at the new firm.
Others who work 300 hour months are less likely to survive.

This is a bad comment. Most people won't become judges. It's still a valid question to ask what would be the best route to become a judge. 3-5% of any summer class becomes a partner at that specific firm, but, if I had to guess, the overall partner rate of summer associates is 10% when you include those who lateral and make partner elsewhere. A 1/10 shot at making partner is not so astronomically crazy that it's worth not talking about. If that were true, then it'd be pointless to talk about the fed clerking process at Columbia, NYU, and some other fantastic schools.

Oh great, a law student who thinks they know it all.
No - 3-5% of making partner ANYWHERE. The statistics aren't available, but 10% is ridiculous. Legitimately absurd. Most associates do not make partner. You are seriously out of touch with the law firm business model.
Obviously depends on specific area but biglaw shifts people into high value transactional areas where burn out / turnover / demand is high, and most of these associates end up leaving to go in-house.

This is a weird comment. It's often not pretty, and it's very rarely at a V15 or whatever, but lots of people do make partner. I know many people who have made partner. If partnership is your goal, NYC is probably the worst place to try it. But it's still possible even there and certainly possible elsewhere. It's an okay goal to have.

Believe it or not, lots of BL associates do not want to make partner. And lots that do are actually pretty bad at the job. That means that the odds for those who still really want to make partner 6+ years in and are reasonably good at their job are not unreasonably bad.

I was editing my post as you were posting. Odds of partnership are infinitesimal. Point you're making above is super weird - is it easily possible for an NYC V10 corporate associate to make partner somewhere? Well, obviously but you can't compare apples and oranges. Chances of partnership at a large law firm in NYC are tiny. If you pushed most associates who "want" partnership, they'd rather make more money in a great in-house gig than make much less as a partner in a small firm.

Done arguing about this, thanks.

[64Fl]

1) Nothing you posted required the use of anon. Don't abuse the feature.

2) Ad hominems are not cool.

3) Baseless assumptions of my background are not cool.

4) As the other poster pointed out, 10% is not at all unreasonable when you consider people who lateral elsewhere to midlaw, boutiques, or even shitlaw. It's not unreasonable for someone to ask how to best set position for partnership from day one. There are definitely people who would prefer great in-house gigs than partnership at smaller/less prestigious shops, but there is also a crowd who would prefer the flip scenario. Partnership isn't all about pay. It's a great deal about autonomy and ownership. Those are two things you often do not get in-house; plus, you have to deal with the additional "cost center" instead of "revenue driver" problem.

[LaLiLuLeLo]

This thread is about making partner in biglaw. It is a near impossible shot if we’re talking “real” partners (read: Kirkland “partners” who are just glorified seniors don’t count). Weil makes about 10 new partners a year. S&C is fewer than 10. Latham is around 20. Skadden is around 10. You get the idea and there’s no telling if all those partners are equity partners. I doubt it.

10% chance is laughable.

[cavalier1138]

Quick! Someone else throw out another number they made up instead of acknowledging that firms differ so widely in this practice that they can't possibly speak to it with any specificity across the whole biglaw market! It's so much more fun this way.

[soft blue]

Probably a more useful question would be what percent of people who actually want to make partner do so -- let's say what % of V100 7th years (on the theory that you would've left by now if you didn't care about it / weren't capable of it) get the nod?

[nealric]

This thread is about making partner in biglaw. It is a near impossible shot if we’re talking “real” partners (read: Kirkland “partners” who are just glorified seniors don’t count). Weil makes about 10 new partners a year. S&C is fewer than 10. Latham is around 20. Skadden is around 10. You get the idea and there’s no telling if all those partners are equity partners. I doubt it.

10% chance is laughable.

Well, do the math. Weil takes ~100 summer associates a year. If it makes 10 new partners a year, that's about 10% making partner. I suspect your chances are a bit better if you are an uber gunner for partner from day 1. I know a lot of people, myself included, who were pretty ambivalent about partnership from the beginning. I went into it thinking I will see how it goes. I didn't hate biglaw like some, but it wasn't something I wanted for the rest of my career. I couldn't imagine doing it now that I have kids and a spouse still in biglaw.

There are a lot of people who self-select out somewhere during their associate career because the realize they don't want partnership. I think the percentage of people who really truly want partnership, and are shut out by involuntary dismissal, denial and wallowing in "of counsel", or other means is probably in the 50-60% range.

Which is not to say an incoming SA can remotely make plans on being partner, but I think some of the folks on this thread are being a bit too negative. For reference, my law school class was up for partnership at my old firm last year. 10% was about right. Incoming class was ~25 or so, two made partner, one of counsel. But personally, I'm, glad I never attempted to stick around at partnership- it's just not the lifestyle I want.

[nealric]

Quick! Someone else throw out another number they made up instead of acknowledging that firms differ so widely in this practice that they can't possibly speak to it with any specificity across the whole biglaw market! It's so much more fun this way.

That's very true, but I think we can make some generalizations.

Highly leveraged firms/practices have lower odds. If the firm has 4 associates for every partner in a practice group, right away your chances are probably much worse than at a firm where the ratio is 1:1. Some markets are also more churn and burn than others. Your chances are also probably a bit better in a secondary market where the culture is less intense.

It's true that the data isn't all that great, but there is data on incoming associate class sizes and partnership class sizes. What can't be measured as accurately is why the associates who didn't make partner left or were made of counsel instead.

[inter-associate]

As some have pointed out, the odds of making partner in general are not that relevant to this tread. Regardless of whether the number is 2-3%, 10% or higher, there are folks that make it and there are certainly many things within an associate's control that he/she can do to maximize their chances of being in that select group. It is not an easy path, and there are no guarantees, but making partner is not equivalent to winning the lottery. Those who made it (for the most part) earned it. There is some luck involved, but to treat it like a complete crap shoot is really downplaying the accomplishments of others and feels like sour grapes from those who did not, do not expect to, or never had any desire to make it.

Edit, to get back to the point of this thread. Even with the above, I would not choose a firm based on partnership prospects. There are many other factors that are more relevant to your ability to succeed and thrive, which will ultimately determine your chances of making partner. It can be hard from the outside looking in, but choose the place where you see yourself as most likely to fit in and receive the type of mentoring (or lack thereof) that is best for you.

[beepboopbeep]

This thread is about making partner in biglaw. It is a near impossible shot if we’re talking “real” partners (read: Kirkland “partners” who are just glorified seniors don’t count). Weil makes about 10 new partners a year. S&C is fewer than 10. Latham is around 20. Skadden is around 10. You get the idea and there’s no telling if all those partners are equity partners. I doubt it.

10% chance is laughable.

Well, do the math. Weil takes ~100 summer associates a year. If it makes 10 new partners a year, that's about 10% making partner. I suspect your chances are a bit better if you are an uber gunner for partner from day 1. I know a lot of people, myself included, who were pretty ambivalent about partnership from the beginning. I went into it thinking I will see how it goes. I didn't hate biglaw like some, but it wasn't something I wanted for the rest of my career. I couldn't imagine doing it now that I have kids and a spouse still in biglaw.

There are a lot of people who self-select out somewhere during their associate career because the realize they don't want partnership. I think the percentage of people who really truly want partnership, and are shut out by involuntary dismissal, denial and wallowing in "of counsel", or other means is probably in the 50-60% range.

Which is not to say an incoming SA can remotely make plans on being partner, but I think some of the folks on this thread are being a bit too negative. For reference, my law school class was up for partnership at my old firm last year. 10% was about right. Incoming class was ~25 or so, two made partner, one of counsel. But personally, I'm, glad I never attempted to stick around at partnership- it's just not the lifestyle I want.

Matches my experience to a T. My class is a few years out still, but have observed a few cycles of friends/colleagues go through the process. ~20-25 entering associates each year. By partnership time, typically seemed like 6-8 were still there and actively gunning for it; maybe 2-3 would make it year 1 of eligibility and the same at year 2, so something like 50-60% of the people who made it to that stage as senior associates got it. Of course lots more filtered out beforehand, so about 10-15% of total incoming associates making partner seems about right.

I'll say I picked my firm in part because of a perception -- that turned out to be justified, see above -- that partnership was a real, attainable goal. I was similar to you in that I came in sort of ambivalent about it, and now definitely do not want that for my life holy shit, but just the fact that it felt possibly realistic made a difference in my personal mindset without which I predict I would've been (more) miserable. It's a different game when you're considering staying at a place for your career vs. acting as a mercenary for a few years until you get whatever you wanted out of it (loans, exit ops, etc.).

The problem here for me is that OP describes partnership as their "main goal," which just seems nutty to me as a rising 2L unless they have significant contact with biglaw such that they actually have a well-informed basis for that preference. Understatement: biglaw can be rough. The people who had it roughest by far at my firm were junior partners and senior associates basically acting as partners before the formal decision was made. Between those two stages, you have like 7-8 years of just absolute bust-ass, live at the office, working-all-the-time insanity. I couldn't do it, and I would question 95% of people who think they actively want that (let alone are capable of doing great work while maintaining that pace).