Zero vacation for 1st year? Forum

[Anonymous User]

I am moving to a small law firm, which is an old boys' club, and they have offered me zero vacation time for the first year saying that this is the firm's policy. I was wondering how common that was, how many vacation days I should be asking for. I have three weeks' vacation at my current firm.

And has anyone worked for an old boys' club? How is it like?

[cavalier1138]

Smaller firms are all going to vary wildly, but that sounds like a bullshit policy. Also, why do they consider you a first year if you're coming to them from another firm?

[jarofsoup]

Working for an old boys club is awful.

[nixy]

This will be the OP’s first year at this new firm, it doesn’t mean that the firm is considering them a first year.

I think the idea of working for a firm so clearly identifiable as an old boy’s club is terrible, but I’m not an old boy (and beggars can’t be choosers). But not having any vacation time at all during the first year is objectively terrible. OP, why not lead with “I have 3 weeks at my current firm” and see where negotiations go? That may be nowhere, but it’s a starting point.

[Lawman1865]

I am moving to a small law firm, which is an old boys' club, and they have offered me zero vacation time for the first year saying that this is the firm's policy. I was wondering how common that was, how many vacation days I should be asking for. I have three weeks' vacation at my current firm.

And has anyone worked for an old boys' club? How is it like?

Seems like a strange policy, especially considering you are lateraling to this firm. Ultimately, if it's a company policy then I suspect they won't budge, but if it seems like there's some exceptions made/leniency for certain people it may be helpful to negotiate considering your current vacation policy. As far as what you should ask for, it really is firm-dependent but somewhere between 7-20 days, probably closer to 7-10 days in this case since they seem hell bent on squeezing every drop of your life into the firm.

[Anonymous User]

I think the idea of working for a firm so clearly identifiable as an old boy’s club is terrible.

Can you explain why it is so terrible? I am currently working at an opposite firm - everyone is fresh out of law school (turnover rate is so high) and I have nothing to learn from anyone at the firm.

[Anonymous User]

This is very interesting-I’m also starting a new job though with four years of experience. I’m planning on asking for time off after six months-this is a chilled government/nonprofit type job. Does it look bad? Should I wait a whole year before asking for vacation?

[Anonymous User]

As far as what you should ask for, it really is firm-dependent but somewhere between 7-20 days, probably closer to 7-10 days in this case since they seem hell bent on squeezing every drop of your life into the firm.

Thank you. The thing is that their billable requirements are only 1500 hours per year, so I am really confused about why they do not offer me any vacation time. It sounds like they will have me develop new client base since I can speak foreign language. Can they ask me to work like additional 500 non-billable hours per year to develop marketing materials?

[nixy]

I think the idea of working for a firm so clearly identifiable as an old boy’s club is terrible.

Can you explain why it is so terrible? I am currently working at an opposite firm - everyone is fresh out of law school (turnover rate is so high) and I have nothing to learn from anyone at the firm.

So we may have different definitions of "old boy's club." To me it means an exclusionary group of old straight white men who network/support each other and exclude people who don't fit that definition. (Like this: https://www.urbandictionary.com/define. ... %20Network) So that's why it doesn't sound like a place I'd want to work.

This is very interesting-I’m also starting a new job though with four years of experience. I’m planning on asking for time off after six months-this is a chilled government/nonprofit type job. Does it look bad? Should I wait a whole year before asking for vacation?

Goodness no. First, you should probably be getting some kind of regular vacation days that you can use when you want rather than having to ask anyone (apart from making sure there's nothing in your schedule that would be affected). But second, no, you don't have to wait a whole year. This isn't a normal thing.

[sparty99]

Some companies have such a policy. However, i would not accept such an offer. You should be allowed time off.

[Bingo_Bongo]

That sounds awful. I can understand giving vacation priority to more senior attorneys (I'd expect this, actually), but flat out denying any vacation time seems like a dumb way to attract talent.

And to me "old boy's club" means a group of close friends who run a business for their own benefit, excluding anyone who hasn't earned their way into their club, yet. To me, it doesn't have the same social justice connotations that others think of. Either way, I wouldn't want to work at a place where it is abundantly apparent you will be an outsider for a while

[nixy]

And to me "old boy's club" means a group of close friends who run a business for their own benefit, excluding anyone who hasn't earned their way into their club, yet. To me, it doesn't have the same social justice connotations that others think of.

The term actually comes from the networks formed among the (male, white) graduates of elite British prep schools.

[Halp]

Hmm, I thought the expectation that first years wouldn’t take vacation (other than maybe Thanksgiving and Christmas) was standard. (Meaning that for the first 12 months, including but not limited to stub year, a vacation would be a major faux pas.) That was my experience, and my impression was that it was standard. Maybe I was misinformed as to how common this is...

Edit: nevermind; I read too quickly and OP is a lateral.

[Halp]

I think the idea of working for a firm so clearly identifiable as an old boy’s club is terrible.

Can you explain why it is so terrible? I am currently working at an opposite firm - everyone is fresh out of law school (turnover rate is so high) and I have nothing to learn from anyone at the firm.

So we may have different definitions of "old boy's club." To me it means an exclusionary group of old straight white men who network/support each other and exclude people who don't fit that definition. (Like this: https://www.urbandictionary.com/define. ... %20Network) So that's why it doesn't sound like a place I'd want to work.

This is very interesting-I’m also starting a new job though with four years of experience. I’m planning on asking for time off after six months-this is a chilled government/nonprofit type job. Does it look bad? Should I wait a whole year before asking for vacation?

Goodness no. First, you should probably be getting some kind of regular vacation days that you can use when you want rather than having to ask anyone (apart from making sure there's nothing in your schedule that would be affected). But second, no, you don't have to wait a whole year. This isn't a normal thing.

Well, if you’re a *young* straight white male, then it might not be so bad (depending on if the old boys like you)...

[cavalier1138]

Hmm, I thought the expectation that first years wouldn’t take vacation (other than maybe Thanksgiving and Christmas) was standard. (Meaning that for the first 12 months, including but not limited to stub year, a vacation would be a major faux pas.) That was my experience, and my impression was that it was standard. Maybe I was misinformed as to how common this is...

Edit: nevermind; I read too quickly and OP is a lateral.

Where is that standard?

I understand not taking two weeks to go totally off-grid, but for firms that allocate vacation time, I've never heard of some unwritten rule that first years are expected to not use it.

[Yea All Right]

Hmm, I thought the expectation that first years wouldn’t take vacation (other than maybe Thanksgiving and Christmas) was standard. (Meaning that for the first 12 months, including but not limited to stub year, a vacation would be a major faux pas.) That was my experience, and my impression was that it was standard. Maybe I was misinformed as to how common this is...

Edit: nevermind; I read too quickly and OP is a lateral.

Where is that standard?

I understand not taking two weeks to go totally off-grid, but for firms that allocate vacation time, I've never heard of some unwritten rule that first years are expected to not use it.

Yeah, first-years are definitely allowed to take vacations, lol.

[RaceJudicata]

Hmm, I thought the expectation that first years wouldn’t take vacation (other than maybe Thanksgiving and Christmas) was standard. (Meaning that for the first 12 months, including but not limited to stub year, a vacation would be a major faux pas.) That was my experience, and my impression was that it was standard. Maybe I was misinformed as to how common this is...

Edit: nevermind; I read too quickly and OP is a lateral.

Where is that standard?

I understand not taking two weeks to go totally off-grid, but for firms that allocate vacation time, I've never heard of some unwritten rule that first years are expected to not use it.

Yeah, first-years are definitely allowed to take vacations, lol.

... and definitely should take vacation

[Halp]

Hmm, I thought the expectation that first years wouldn’t take vacation (other than maybe Thanksgiving and Christmas) was standard. (Meaning that for the first 12 months, including but not limited to stub year, a vacation would be a major faux pas.) That was my experience, and my impression was that it was standard. Maybe I was misinformed as to how common this is...

Edit: nevermind; I read too quickly and OP is a lateral.

Where is that standard?

I understand not taking two weeks to go totally off-grid, but for firms that allocate vacation time, I've never heard of some unwritten rule that first years are expected to not use it.

I’m not comfortable giving details about where this was, but I was literally explicitly told about this rule at this firm. Seemed like part of the General suckitude of the gig so I just never questioned it. Good to know that was insane...

[Anonymous User]

One first year in my group took a one-week vacation this summer. It stood out in being unusual but there were no adverse consequences. The associates noticed it more than the partners - I imagine largely because of the unwritten rule at a lot of biglaw shops (mine included) that your first vacation should be as a 2nd year.

Note - people take time off for holidays without issue here. 4 day weekends around Memorial Day or Independence Day, longer for Thanksgiving or Christmas. I'm talking about taking a M-F week off in the middle of June or something without bumping up against a holiday. People just think of it differently here at least. (Would rather stay anon to discuss this openly.)

[yodamiked]

Wow...this is insane to me that there are firms out there who have an unwritten rule that you're not allowed to take vacation in your first year. Or firms out there who won't let a lateral take vacation for their first year. I'm literally at a loss for words. Coming from a non-US background, all I can say is 'Merica!

[Anonymous User]

One first year in my group took a one-week vacation this summer. It stood out in being unusual but there were no adverse consequences. The associates noticed it more than the partners - I imagine largely because of the unwritten rule at a lot of biglaw shops (mine included) that your first vacation should be as a 2nd year.

Note - people take time off for holidays without issue here. 4 day weekends around Memorial Day or Independence Day, longer for Thanksgiving or Christmas. I'm talking about taking a M-F week off in the middle of June or something without bumping up against a holiday. People just think of it differently here at least. (Would rather stay anon to discuss this openly.)

Wow this is crazy, is this big law? I'm in big law and stub years take their full vacation before year end (5 days since pro-rated and they start in Q4) and first years take the full 20 days. Or at least they should.

[inter-associate]

One first year in my group took a one-week vacation this summer. It stood out in being unusual but there were no adverse consequences. The associates noticed it more than the partners - I imagine largely because of the unwritten rule at a lot of biglaw shops (mine included) that your first vacation should be as a 2nd year.

Note - people take time off for holidays without issue here. 4 day weekends around Memorial Day or Independence Day, longer for Thanksgiving or Christmas. I'm talking about taking a M-F week off in the middle of June or something without bumping up against a holiday. People just think of it differently here at least. (Would rather stay anon to discuss this openly.)

Wow this is crazy, is this big law? I'm in big law and stub years take their full vacation before year end (5 days since pro-rated and they start in Q4) and first years take the full 20 days. Or at least they should.

Seriously. My experience has been that first years have more chances to take advantage of vacation days than the more senior folks. I grumble to myself when they leave for a week while working on a project for me, but that has nothing to do with how senior they are and is really just a reflection of my personality shortcomings. Obviously this varies from firm to firm, but I would not have accepted an offer if I was not permitted to take any vacation days during my first year.

[Halp]

One first year in my group took a one-week vacation this summer. It stood out in being unusual but there were no adverse consequences. The associates noticed it more than the partners - I imagine largely because of the unwritten rule at a lot of biglaw shops (mine included) that your first vacation should be as a 2nd year.

Note - people take time off for holidays without issue here. 4 day weekends around Memorial Day or Independence Day, longer for Thanksgiving or Christmas. I'm talking about taking a M-F week off in the middle of June or something without bumping up against a holiday. People just think of it differently here at least. (Would rather stay anon to discuss this openly.)

Wow this is crazy, is this big law? I'm in big law and stub years take their full vacation before year end (5 days since pro-rated and they start in Q4) and first years take the full 20 days. Or at least they should.

Seriously. My experience has been that first years have more chances to take advantage of vacation days than the more senior folks. I grumble to myself when they leave for a week while working on a project for me, but that has nothing to do with how senior they are and is really just a reflection of my personality shortcomings. Obviously this varies from firm to firm, but I would not have accepted an offer if I was not permitted to take any vacation days during my first year.

FWIW, at my firm I was told AFTER starting about this unwritten policy (and yes, a supposedly generous multi week vacation package was dangled as part of the benefits to induce acceptance of the offer). I seriously thought this was the case everywhere.

[Anonymous User]

One first year in my group took a one-week vacation this summer. It stood out in being unusual but there were no adverse consequences. The associates noticed it more than the partners - I imagine largely because of the unwritten rule at a lot of biglaw shops (mine included) that your first vacation should be as a 2nd year.

Note - people take time off for holidays without issue here. 4 day weekends around Memorial Day or Independence Day, longer for Thanksgiving or Christmas. I'm talking about taking a M-F week off in the middle of June or something without bumping up against a holiday. People just think of it differently here at least. (Would rather stay anon to discuss this openly.)

Wow this is crazy, is this big law? I'm in big law and stub years take their full vacation before year end (5 days since pro-rated and they start in Q4) and first years take the full 20 days. Or at least they should.

This is at a not huge but not tiny office of a V10. The firm has an unlimited vacation policy; we do not accrue vacation days. In theory I can take off on a vacation whenever I want for as long as I want and there is no mechanism for me to record that/have my days “deducted.” In practice of course this rarely happens, but it does happen, for example when a big case settles on the eve of trial.

I did not know there were biglaw firms where first years were taking 5 weeks vacation within their first 15 months or whatever. That would be very uncommon for associates of any class year here, unless you are counting “vacation” as a Friday off here or there or an extra day or two tacked on to the July 4 holiday or something.

[cavalier1138]

The firm has an unlimited vacation policy; we do not accrue vacation days.

This is exactly the type of firm I would imagine having these kinds of unwritten expectations. It's actually a helpful thing for people to know when they're looking at benefits: Four weeks of paid vacation is always better than "unlimited" vacation. Having the accrued days means that you actually get to take the vacation; when it's "unlimited," you'll actually end up taking fewer days off.