When Are Associates Pushed Out? Forum

[Anonymous User]

Rising third-year at a V20, I heard several third year associates at my firm were given 90 days to find another source of employment, and was wondering how common that is, and if it normally starts that early (absent some major screw up).

[Anonymous User]

My former firm, V100, did begin to push some associates out that early or even earlier, but the process was much slower and gentler. I've only heard of one associate ever actually being let go officially in the manner you describe. With the others, the firm just gave unfavorable reviews and/or refused to raise or promote them and they left on their own. In one case, the firm placed the associate in-house with a client.

[Wild Card]

In one case, the firm placed the associate in-house with a client.

This happens very often at my firm: but I heard that these associates are being paid biglaw salaries to work the 9-5 in-house.

At my firm, I've seen associates leave three months after the first month of their second year, which suggests that they might have gotten the talk then. But IDK.

[barkschool]

In one case, the firm placed the associate in-house with a client.

This happens very often at my firm: but I heard that these associates are being paid biglaw salaries to work the 9-5 in-house.

At my firm, I've seen associates leave three months after the first month of their second year, which suggests that they might have gotten the talk then. But IDK.

Where can I sign up for that sort of exit?

[Wild Card]

In one case, the firm placed the associate in-house with a client.

This happens very often at my firm: but I heard that these associates are being paid biglaw salaries to work the 9-5 in-house.

At my firm, I've seen associates leave three months after the first month of their second year, which suggests that they might have gotten the talk then. But IDK.

Where can I sign up for that sort of exit?

Not an exit. As a first/second/third year, you're sent off to Credit Suisse or Deutsche or w/e for 6 months, and then you return to the firm, not necessarily to the same practice group.

It's kind of like a corporate clerkship, which is pretty cool, especially if you're making your regular biglaw salary.

[ConfusedNYer]

The type of arrangement Wild Card is describing is usually called a secondment (at least that's what the firm where I summered called it) and while some associates will come back a healthy chunk used it to just move in-house while keeping a big law salary for half a year. In fact, secondment to in-house position was maybe the most common plan you'd hear when asking midlevels what their long term plans were (maybe tied with going into the government or returning to a local market.)

No clue how common this practice is across firms.

[Elston Gunn]

This really doesn’t seem to happen at my DC-based firm. You almost never see juniors/3rd years leave for other firms, and the only exits I see at that level with any regularity are clerkships.

[SowhatsNU]

Yea IMO secondments are definitely not equivalent to being let go (with notice)- unlikely that a firm would send a client an associate it was planning on letting go as it would risk damaging the firm’s reputation.

[nealric]

Yea IMO secondments are definitely not equivalent to being let go (with notice)- unlikely that a firm would send a client an associate it was planning on letting go as it would risk damaging the firm’s reputation.

Agreed. From the firm's perspective, secondments are done to build relationships with important clients. The firm wouldn't risk sending over a dud. There were people who were seconded at my old firm who went on to make partner. While clients do occasionally hire seconded lawyers, that's not really the main intent. If a firm really wants to get rid of you, they get rid of you.

There's no real time frame on being pushed out. It's happened 6 months after starting, and it can happen to partners. Sometimes the lawyer is truly a dud, sometimes the lawyer stepped on the wrong toes politically, and sometimes it's an economic layoff disguised as a performance-based firing.

You can find some solace in the fact that if your hours remain reasonably high (on track for 2,000+), being pushed out is pretty rare. Also, keep in mind that firms generally don't like to push people out. If they don't have you tagged to make partner, they'd much rather you end up at a client on your own accord.

[Anonymous User]

V10 lit fourth year of strong writing skills but low managerial ability and mediocre hours also wondering when I can expect to be fired

[Anonymous User]

My V10 (non NYC but major market) starts pushing people out at the 1 year mark like clockwork. I've even heard of people being warned for low hours at the 6 month mark.

Strangely enough, we also have a big problem with retention, so there's that.

[Vexed]

Yea IMO secondments are definitely not equivalent to being let go (with notice)- unlikely that a firm would send a client an associate it was planning on letting go as it would risk damaging the firm’s reputation.

Depends on why they're being pushed out, I know of one associate at my firm who effectively was pushed out to the client via secondment but it wasn't because they did bad work, their group had just slowed and needed to trim associates.

[beeoBoop]

V10 lit fourth year of strong writing skills but low managerial ability and mediocre hours also wondering when I can expect to be fired

This depends. What do you consider to be mediocre hours?

[Wild Card]

My V10 (non NYC but major market) starts pushing people out at the 1 year mark like clockwork. I've even heard of people being warned for low hours at the 6 month mark.

Strangely enough, we also have a big problem with retention, so there's that.

lol I started last September and just got warned for low hours. Gonna die.

Many of my classmates don't even have half my hours...

[barkschool]

My V10 (non NYC but major market) starts pushing people out at the 1 year mark like clockwork. I've even heard of people being warned for low hours at the 6 month mark.

Strangely enough, we also have a big problem with retention, so there's that.

lol I started last September and just got warned for low hours. Gonna die.

Many of my classmates don't even have half my hours...

Formal meeting?

[Anonymous User]

2nd year associate class of 2017. I got a call around April or May that my hours (on an annualized basis for 2019) were looking low and that I should step it up. Proceeded with a bunch of different partners calling me to staff me on things, so looks like they look at it in monthly meetings and stuff. That being said I billed like under 1700 as a first year with no repercussions.

I've heard of associates at different firms in similar class year and situations being warned that if they didn't pick up, they would check back in like in 3 months to reassess.

[LaLiLuLeLo]

I love when partners tell you to step it up and bill more hours. Maybe you guys need to be better about giving us work.

[Wild Card]

I love when partners tell you to step it up and bill more hours. Maybe you guys need to be better about giving us work.

The thing is, we submit availability sheets every week, so the partners know exactly how busy are. Essentially, are they MAF about us not going around BEGGING for more work?

[LaLiLuLeLo]

Second year associate beside himself. Walking around the office begging (thru texts) pantherns for more billable work.

[notinbiglaw]

Most firms would love to plant more of their associates in big clients’ offices.

[Anonymous User]

At my V40 (or V50, not sure as it falls every year), pushing out starts from 2nd year.

[Wild Card]

pantherns

His gaze has from the pasing of the bars
grown so tired, that it holds nothing anymore.
It seems to him there are a thousand bars
and behind a thousand bars no world.

The supple pace of powerful soft strides,
turning in the very smallest circle,
is like a dance of strength around a center
in which a great will stands numbed.

Only sometimes the curtain of the pupils
soundlessly slides up --. Then an image enters,
glides through the limbs' taut stillness,
dives into the heart and dies.

[miguelfoogo]

how now brown cow? the man said in his slumber

also, that poem strikes me relatable ha

[Anonymous User]

.

[UnfrozenCaveman]

What firms are more "up or out" for junior and mid-level associates? It seems like some firms will let associates stay until they are a super-senior, while others push out associates much earlier.

Bump

Can't really give a good, definitive answer. I think Kirkland is known for this, but that's my general impression of the firms that name mid-level to sr associates partners early.