What are signs of no offer? Forum

[Anonymous User]

For those firms with 95-100% offer rate but where summers are not told whether they will get a return offer during end-of-summer review, what are signs of being no-offered? Receiving some negative reviews? Not being told "we want you to return"? Or is it completely blindsided?

My firm is a traditionally high offer firm with 100% offer last year, but it almost doubled summer class size, making me bit paranoid and kinda urging me now to send some resumes to firms hiring 3Ls. My review was a mix of good and bad (aka "constructive feedback").

[beeoBoop]

If they doubled their class it's because they have a hiring need, not because they plan to no offer students in advance. Relax you're fine

[BrainsyK]

IME if your gut is telling you that something is "off" in how you are or were being treated by attorneys at the firm as the summer winds down, then something probably IS off. That doesn't necessarily mean it will turn into a no-offer, sometimes there are "close case" candidates that some on the hiring committee want to no offer but others are advocating for. This could be the cause of some of those askance glances and strained facial expressions you've been picking up on, because when this kind of debate is going on about about a summer tons of people in the firm know about it, not just the hiring committee.

And yes, doing something that gets a "bad" or "mixed" review as an SA is definitely NOT a good sign. Firms want SAs to have a great experience so they go back to campus and tell all their 1L and 2L friends what an AMAZING firm Jones Day/Fried Frank/Whatever is because that helps their recruiting. As long as it is not turned in late and does not evince contempt total contempt for the assignment, most SA work will receive very good to glowing reviews, even though most of what you all turn in is actually crap. Most partners at most firms will try to avoid giving a bad review and leaving a bad taste in an SAs mouth which might get spread to future recruits. Then again, some partners/associates are just hard asses looking to bust your chops and some firms encourage this kind of "tough love" culture more than others.

So maybe everything's actually great and you're just paranoid?

I'll disagree with this except for the last two sentences. There are way too many stressed out attorneys and neurotic law students walking around a biglaw firm at any given time for there to be even semiaccurate non-verbal communication about offers. Also, the person getting no offered is probably so clueless that they'd miss even active communications of discomfort from others.

[shock259]

You're not going to want to hear this, but in my experience, sometimes there are signs and sometimes there are not. Just do your best, be social, and keep a good attitude.

[Wild Card]

I just wrote this in another thread.

You'll get an offer, but your firm will likely put you in a shitty group that nobody wants, such as real estate or finance.

There are many people whom I thought were smart, competent, and decent people who got fucked over like this.

Just be thankful you'll have a job, I guess.

[Petrichor]

I just wrote this in another thread.

You'll get an offer, but your firm will likely put you in a shitty group that nobody wants, such as real estate or finance.

There are many people whom I thought were smart, competent, and decent people who got fucked over like this.

Just be thankful you'll have a job, I guess.

Can you expand a bit on why these are shitty groups that nobody wanted? Bad hours? Lack of exit options?

[cheaptilts]

I just wrote this in another thread.

You'll get an offer, but your firm will likely put you in a shitty group that nobody wants, such as real estate or finance.

There are many people whom I thought were smart, competent, and decent people who got fucked over like this.

Just be thankful you'll have a job, I guess.

How did you surmise all this (what you termed a likelihood) based on OP saying that she was given constructive feedback? No other details of terrible reviews, an egregious faux pas with partners, etc. just constructive feedback—a mix of good and bad.

[cavalier1138]

I just wrote this in another thread.

You'll get an offer, but your firm will likely put you in a shitty group that nobody wants, such as real estate or finance.

There are many people whom I thought were smart, competent, and decent people who got fucked over like this.

Just be thankful you'll have a job, I guess.

How did you surmise all this (what you termed a likelihood) based on OP saying that she was given constructive feedback? No other details of terrible reviews, an egregious faux pas with partners, etc. just constructive feedback—a mix of good and bad.

They used a traditional technique known as "bullshitting." I assume the main benefit is that scaring some poor SA makes people who don't like their job feel better about their life choices.

[Anonymous User]

IME if your gut is telling you that something is "off" in how you are or were being treated by attorneys at the firm as the summer winds down, then something probably IS off. That doesn't necessarily mean it will turn into a no-offer, sometimes there are "close case" candidates that some on the hiring committee want to no offer but others are advocating for. This could be the cause of some of those askance glances and strained facial expressions you've been picking up on, because when this kind of debate is going on about about a summer tons of people in the firm know about it, not just the hiring committee.

And yes, doing something that gets a "bad" or "mixed" review as an SA is definitely NOT a good sign. Firms want SAs to have a great experience so they go back to campus and tell all their 1L and 2L friends what an AMAZING firm Jones Day/Fried Frank/Whatever is because that helps their recruiting. As long as it is not turned in late and does not evince contempt total contempt for the assignment, most SA work will receive very good to glowing reviews, even though most of what you all turn in is actually crap. Most partners at most firms will try to avoid giving a bad review and leaving a bad taste in an SAs mouth which might get spread to future recruits. Then again, some partners/associates are just hard asses looking to bust your chops and some firms encourage this kind of "tough love" culture more than others.

So maybe everything's actually great and you're just paranoid?

Completed my summer program on last Friday and was invited to my firm's OCI reception today. A partner, who is my school's alumni but at the different office, gave me weird vibes--not making an eye contact with me, not asking my summer experience, and just keep talking with rising 2Ls who received pre-oci offers. My end-of-summer review wasn't 100% positive (no terrible reviews though). I feel really worrisome now. Usually 95-100% offer firm.

[notinbiglaw]

Seriously don’t worry too much about it. It could just be he was the one that did pre-OCI interviews so he recognized them.

Do your job well and don’t be super weird/jackass and you’ll be fine.