[Split] Track Changes v. Handwritten Redline Forum

[Vexed]

As to how is it any of my business why they work from home - employers have always made it their business, that's where the concept of sick/personal/vacation days came from. To take a more middle of the road approach - if it truly has no impact on work then I don't really care. The issue I have (as do a number of more senior folks) is that it does impact my work when I have to waste time scanning 100 page docs and trying to flip them on calls. Maybe I'm not progressive enough on this front, but my understanding is that it is the junior folks' responsibility to adapt to their supervisors and not the other way around.

Based on this it seems that your problem isn't actually around working from home, it's that you're still doing your mark-ups by hand instead of track changes. Literally have never encountered that issue.

[Anonymous User]

For personal reasons, I’ve been working almost exclusively from home for the last two months. Nothing has substantively changed.

Being in the office is a total flame. Sometimes you even get in situations where you almost totally work with attorneys outside your office and, shocker, it works out just fine.

[Anonymous User]

As to how is it any of my business why they work from home - employers have always made it their business, that's where the concept of sick/personal/vacation days came from. To take a more middle of the road approach - if it truly has no impact on work then I don't really care. The issue I have (as do a number of more senior folks) is that it does impact my work when I have to waste time scanning 100 page docs and trying to flip them on calls. Maybe I'm not progressive enough on this front, but my understanding is that it is the junior folks' responsibility to adapt to their supervisors and not the other way around.

Based on this it seems that your problem isn't actually around working from home, it's that you're still doing your mark-ups by hand instead of track changes. Literally have never encountered that issue.

Keep telling myself to leave this thread alone because I am contributing to it going off the rails, but why is it a problem that I do mark-ups by hand? No problem with folks using track changes, but for me it is so much easier to nail my review when I print out the doc and mark it up by hand. Don't think my way is the best approach, but it works for me and many others at my level of seniority so I don't see a need to change.

One thing that younger associates often fail to realize is that for the vast majority of them their time in biglaw is a very short stop in their legal career. They come and go and are really there for the convenience of the more senior folks. Not saying we shouldn't try to make a miserable profession more palatable, but my view is that new associates should first learn to succeed within the system. Once they have a few years under their belts they can (and do) help make changes based on their experiences/preferences/etc. Expecting the system to cater to the younger generation when they haven't even gotten their feet wet is backwards.

Again, apologies for taking this off the rails. I continue to stand by my view that working remotely is fine if it works for those you interact with. Just don't think there is necessarily going to be a dramatic cultural shift in the near term, and I don't feel obligated to make it happen.

[UnfrozenCaveman]

As to how is it any of my business why they work from home - employers have always made it their business, that's where the concept of sick/personal/vacation days came from. To take a more middle of the road approach - if it truly has no impact on work then I don't really care. The issue I have (as do a number of more senior folks) is that it does impact my work when I have to waste time scanning 100 page docs and trying to flip them on calls. Maybe I'm not progressive enough on this front, but my understanding is that it is the junior folks' responsibility to adapt to their supervisors and not the other way around.

Based on this it seems that your problem isn't actually around working from home, it's that you're still doing your mark-ups by hand instead of track changes. Literally have never encountered that issue.

Keep telling myself to leave this thread alone because I am contributing to it going off the rails, but why is it a problem that I do mark-ups by hand? No problem with folks using track changes, but for me it is so much easier to nail my review when I print out the doc and mark it up by hand. Don't think my way is the best approach, but it works for me and many others at my level of seniority so I don't see a need to change.

One thing that younger associates often fail to realize is that for the vast majority of them their time in biglaw is a very short stop in their legal career. They come and go and are really there for the convenience of the more senior folks. Not saying we shouldn't try to make a miserable profession more palatable, but my view is that new associates should first learn to succeed within the system. Once they have a few years under their belts they can (and do) help make changes based on their experiences/preferences/etc. Expecting the system to cater to the younger generation when they haven't even gotten their feet wet is backwards.

Again, apologies for taking this off the rails. I continue to stand by my view that working remotely is fine if it works for those you interact with. Just don't think there is necessarily going to be a dramatic cultural shift in the near term, and I don't feel obligated to make it happen.

I'm certainly not disagreeing that junior folks should be adapting to their supervisors, but it seems to me that your overall mindset is what makes it miserable. I agree with your sentiment generally, but juniors are often juggling multiple more senior attorneys who act like their work should be the most important thing to the junior and most sr attorneys don't plan their workload, expecting a junior to be able to respond instantly whenever it is that the senior gets around to the work that the junior submitted. Just having a little bit of respect for the junior's time goes miles.

[Vexed]

Aside from the fact that it's apparently a massive issue if you ever want to work through a mark-up with someone who is remote, it's literally less efficient. Everything you do by hand you're going to have to do electronically anyways.

I get it, some people just prefer marking by hand. Just seems odd that your problem with working from home is based on the inefficiency of the mark-up process when your default process is relatively inefficient to begin with.

[Carl Carlson]

As to how is it any of my business why they work from home - employers have always made it their business, that's where the concept of sick/personal/vacation days came from. To take a more middle of the road approach - if it truly has no impact on work then I don't really care. The issue I have (as do a number of more senior folks) is that it does impact my work when I have to waste time scanning 100 page docs and trying to flip them on calls. Maybe I'm not progressive enough on this front, but my understanding is that it is the junior folks' responsibility to adapt to their supervisors and not the other way around.

Based on this it seems that your problem isn't actually around working from home, it's that you're still doing your mark-ups by hand instead of track changes. Literally have never encountered that issue.

Keep telling myself to leave this thread alone because I am contributing to it going off the rails, but why is it a problem that I do mark-ups by hand? No problem with folks using track changes, but for me it is so much easier to nail my review when I print out the doc and mark it up by hand. Don't think my way is the best approach, but it works for me and many others at my level of seniority so I don't see a need to change.

One thing that younger associates often fail to realize is that for the vast majority of them their time in biglaw is a very short stop in their legal career. They come and go and are really there for the convenience of the more senior folks. Not saying we shouldn't try to make a miserable profession more palatable, but my view is that new associates should first learn to succeed within the system. Once they have a few years under their belts they can (and do) help make changes based on their experiences/preferences/etc. Expecting the system to cater to the younger generation when they haven't even gotten their feet wet is backwards.

Again, apologies for taking this off the rails. I continue to stand by my view that working remotely is fine if it works for those you interact with. Just don't think there is necessarily going to be a dramatic cultural shift in the near term, and I don't feel obligated to make it happen.

No, not exactly. Juniors should adapt to more senior/experienced people only if it's the right way to do things. If you maintain a method/process that is wrong or inefficient, you need to change. Forcing an inefficient process to stay in place and not listening to others (no matter their experience) simply because "its the way it's been done" or "I'm the boss" is the hallmark of poor management and literally the exact opposite of what they teach in business schools. Everyone needs to adapt and everyone needs to listen to each other.

[icansortofmath]

Please stop marking up by hand or at least get a touch screen and a pen to mark up in something like OneNote. It’s a giant waste of time to pass a hand marked document around for everyone involved, including yourself.

Fun story. I got yelled at once a long time ago for not incorporating a comment an MD wrote on very edge of the page.

I never saw the comment because I was handed a photocopy of the markup and the machine never copied the margins.

[LaLiLuLeLo]

Some people also have garbage handwriting. A hand markup greatly increases the room for error.

Track changes accomplishes the same thing and, as someone mentioned, is more efficient because you don’t have someone writing comments and someone retyping them when they could’ve been typed to start.

I get that looking at a paper document is easier to review. I agree. But do edits in track changes and it’s a much more efficient, less error prone method.

Technology is beautiful. Embrace it.

[Anonymous User]

For what it’s worth, I am also a senior lawyer and track changes works much, much less well than hand markups when communicating comments to juniors. I don’t know for sure why this is the case, but I suspect most importantly because there is a temptation for the junior to accept changes rather than actually conform them into the document appropriately. I’d much prefer to use track changes and use them almost exclusively when giving markups to other lawyers at my level or above. But for juniors I have to stick to hand markups to limit [screw] ups.

The ideal method for giving comments, balancing pedagogy and effectiveness, is a hand markup that I walk through with the junior in person. Everything else proves less effective in practice.

[totesTheGoat]

For what it’s worth, I am also a senior lawyer and track changes works much, much less well than hand markups when communicating comments to juniors. I don’t know for sure why this is the case, but I suspect most importantly because there is a temptation for the junior to accept changes rather than actually conform them into the document appropriately.

I've run into this issue with senior partners at my OC firms as well. It usually comes down to lack of attention to detail because they're running behind. I found that a combination of track changes (for minor typos) and comments (for larger/structural issues) yields the best results. They can't just click "accept changes" and be done, but they also aren't dealing with some redlined piece of paper that has to be manually transcribed into the computer. If I sent them some handmarked photocopy, they'd laugh at me, half-ass it and probably bill me $500 for the honor.

I've also been on the other side of the coin where I submitted work product to the partner weeks ahead of time, they got to it less than 24 hours before the deadline, and they sent me an email at the deadline saying "I made some changes and filed this document, go look at the redline in the document repo if you want to see what I did." Yeah, I went back maybe twice to see what changed... I was already onto the next handful of things on my docket.

Returning to the topic at hand, I think that remote working simply exposes and accentuates flawed processes. If juniors aren't adequately reviewing redlines, it's a process problem, not a technology or location problem. They could be reviewing a hand-marked copy in their office or a track changes doc on the beach, but if they're charged with turning it around in 3 hours, there's not much thinking and reflecting involved.

[inter-associate]

Some people also have garbage handwriting. A hand markup greatly increases the room for error.

Track changes accomplishes the same thing and, as someone mentioned, is more efficient because you don’t have someone writing comments and someone retyping them when they could’ve been typed to start.

I get that looking at a paper document is easier to review. I agree. But do edits in track changes and it’s a much more efficient, less error prone method.

Technology is beautiful. Embrace it.

Everyone is welcome to their own style - but there is no way tracked changes would be more efficient for me. When we get close to closing and I get a mass of random one pagers review I ask my secretary to print them all, I mark them up one at a time, and then I hand the markups over to a junior. I can't imagine having to go back and forth between a clean physical copy on my desk and a digital markup on my screen. Those are also the times I get most annoyed if I have to have all of them scanned and emailed to the junior.

Maybe I just became an old geezer too early in life - but my way works for me and gets deals done and I have never received a single complaint from anyone about inefficiency. I also know folks who are very proficient at working through docs on a screen and have no problem with going through them on the phone. Seems to work for them fine, but they aren't more efficient than me.

I will acquiesce on one point - there is actual new technology (unlike tracked changes which has been around forever) all the time that can make things more efficient. I do like when junior enlighten me so I have the chance to embrace it. Maybe something will come along to change my mind on working remotely as well - just haven't seen it yet.

[Vexed]

Everyone is welcome to their own style - but there is no way tracked changes would be more efficient for me. When we get close to closing and I get a mass of random one pagers review I ask my secretary to print them all, I mark them up one at a time, and then I hand the markups over to a junior. I can't imagine having to go back and forth between a clean physical copy on my desk and a digital markup on my screen. Those are also the times I get most annoyed if I have to have all of them scanned and emailed to the junior.

You're just describing passing that same inefficiency to the junior. I'm sure you are more "efficient" than your colleagues working digitally, but that's because they're literally doing more of the actual work of putting the document together whereas you're passing that leg of the work onto the junior.

Also, I don't know anyone who uses track changes and does the bolded, that's kind of the point of doing it in track. But you know who does have to do that? Juniors incorporating your hand-marks.

[ghostoftraynor]

Some people also have garbage handwriting. A hand markup greatly increases the room for error.

Track changes accomplishes the same thing and, as someone mentioned, is more efficient because you don’t have someone writing comments and someone retyping them when they could’ve been typed to start.

I get that looking at a paper document is easier to review. I agree. But do edits in track changes and it’s a much more efficient, less error prone method.

Technology is beautiful. Embrace it.

Everyone is welcome to their own style - but there is no way tracked changes would be more efficient for me. When we get close to closing and I get a mass of random one pagers review I ask my secretary to print them all, I mark them up one at a time, and then I hand the markups over to a junior. I can't imagine having to go back and forth between a clean physical copy on my desk and a digital markup on my screen. Those are also the times I get most annoyed if I have to have all of them scanned and emailed to the junior.

Maybe I just became an old geezer too early in life - but my way works for me and gets deals done and I have never received a single complaint from anyone about inefficiency. I also know folks who are very proficient at working through docs on a screen and have no problem with going through them on the phone. Seems to work for them fine, but they aren't more efficient than me.

I will acquiesce on one point - there is actual new technology (unlike tracked changes which has been around forever) all the time that can make things more efficient. I do like when junior enlighten me so I have the chance to embrace it. Maybe something will come along to change my mind on working remotely as well - just haven't seen it yet.

I'm much less anti hand mark-up than a lot of posters here, but is it really that hard to hand your stack of markups to your secretary and ask them to scan and send? I actually get hand markup-ups through scans more often than not because partners are often off-site themselves (outside of business hours, travel, summer house, etc.).

Also not understanding the need to go over markup in person or at all. I'll call/go to partners office if I don't understand something, but it's usually a matter of just implementing.

I get it. Facetime helps to build relationships. But there really isn't anything I can thank of in terms of work product that suffers from remote work. Sure, it can piss off certain people (like the above poster), but you generally know if you are working with someone who is going to strongly prefer office conferences to the phone and can plan accordingly.

[inter-associate]

You're just describing passing that same inefficiency to the junior. I'm sure you are more "efficient" than your colleagues working digitally, but that's because they're literally doing more of the actual work of putting the document together whereas you're passing that leg of the work onto the junior.

Yes, passing that leg of the work to someone whose billing rate is half of mine. That’s why we push stuff like incorporating comments down.

[LaLiLuLeLo]

You're just describing passing that same inefficiency to the junior. I'm sure you are more "efficient" than your colleagues working digitally, but that's because they're literally doing more of the actual work of putting the document together whereas you're passing that leg of the work onto the junior.

Yes, passing that leg of the work to someone whose billing rate is half of mine. That’s why we push stuff like incorporating comments down.

How does that argument work when you are billing to write out the comments and a junior is billing to type in those comments?

The end result is still more expensive than had you typed them in even with your higher billing rate.

[icansortofmath]

Only one partner/MD did this and I thought it was really good system.

He just changed the font of stuff he wanted changed to red and inserted a comment and made the interns and juniors make changes themselves.

[LawAndBehold]

I work from home quite frequently. About 2 half days a week. Sometimes full days but I prefer going in every day as I quite like the change of scenery and secondly, I do think it is important to mostly be in the office. Socializing with your colleagues goes a long way in liking your job and to build relationships with people it helps if you are in the same location.

I am actually more responsive to emails when i work from home because I do not want people to think I am not working. I take working from home seriously and the partners know that. Also, before I started working from home, I had been with the firm for about 3 years. WFH now since 2 years. My firm’s policy is that juniors are not allowed to WFH. I think that makes sense as you learn more/quicker when you are in the office because it’s hard to mentor people that are not there, plus you will generally get more feedback on a particular work product as a junior, which is best done face to face I think. Seems weird to mentor/provide feedback over the phone. Only problem is that partners are now also working more from home so...

On the markup bit: frankly I don’t care. If people want to be old school and do it by hand, which some partners at my firm do, my secretary will just scan their notes and email to me if I am WFH.

[Ultramar vistas]

Some people also have garbage handwriting. A hand markup greatly increases the room for error.

Track changes accomplishes the same thing and, as someone mentioned, is more efficient because you don’t have someone writing comments and someone retyping them when they could’ve been typed to start.

I get that looking at a paper document is easier to review. I agree. But do edits in track changes and it’s a much more efficient, less error prone method.

Technology is beautiful. Embrace it.

Everyone is welcome to their own style - but there is no way tracked changes would be more efficient for me. When we get close to closing and I get a mass of random one pagers review I ask my secretary to print them all, I mark them up one at a time, and then I hand the markups over to a junior. I can't imagine having to go back and forth between a clean physical copy on my desk and a digital markup on my screen. Those are also the times I get most annoyed if I have to have all of them scanned and emailed to the junior.

Maybe I just became an old geezer too early in life - but my way works for me and gets deals done and I have never received a single complaint from anyone about inefficiency. I also know folks who are very proficient at working through docs on a screen and have no problem with going through them on the phone. Seems to work for them fine, but they aren't more efficient than me.

I will acquiesce on one point - there is actual new technology (unlike tracked changes which has been around forever) all the time that can make things more efficient. I do like when junior enlighten me so I have the chance to embrace it. Maybe something will come along to change my mind on working remotely as well - just haven't seen it yet.

Ah, the beautiful obliviousness of thinking that because you have never received feedback none of the juniors are thinking it...

[Daboose]

I really don't understand the aversion ITT to hand markups.

In my group, everyone almost exclusively uses hand markups. I'm still pretty junior but I actually prefer receiving hand markups because it helps me keep ownership of the document and it's a decent learning experience and easy billable hours.

If a deal is fee-sensative and I need to be more efficient, I can always hit the substantive comments and then just pass the markup off to document services to take the first crack at the other stuff and then quickly check their work.

And now that I am also reviewing junior work, hand markups are much quicker for me and it keeps me from making unnecessary and/or annoying comments. If something is drafted generally fine but maybe I would just say it a different way, I'm less likely to mark it up if I have to write out my comments by hand.

Also, seniors in my group usually just send along riders for more lengthy comments and let the junior conform/incorporate the language into our doc.
I've noticed that only if someone really botches a document will the senior associate have to actually send track changes or if it's really a lost cause, they may just jump in the document and fix it themselves.

[smokeylarue]

Strange comments ITT. Agree with the above. Handmarking documents is totally the norm and is usually easier for reviewers to read/comment on paper as opposed to a computer screen. The people who are railing against it in this thread clearly have not been in Biglaw.

[Vexed]

You're just describing passing that same inefficiency to the junior. I'm sure you are more "efficient" than your colleagues working digitally, but that's because they're literally doing more of the actual work of putting the document together whereas you're passing that leg of the work onto the junior.

Yes, passing that leg of the work to someone whose billing rate is half of mine. That’s why we push stuff like incorporating comments down.

It really only works out that way if the extra time it would take you to do a digital mark is roughly equivalent or longer to how long it takes the junior to incorporate your mark-up digitally. Seeing as they're doing they're not just doing the digital mark-up you would have done but have the added task of interpreting your hand mark-up, that is unlikely. Plus, even if they're the same cost efficiency the first scenario goes out the door faster.

And now that I am also reviewing junior work, hand markups are much quicker for me and it keeps me from making unnecessary and/or annoying comments. If something is drafted generally fine but maybe I would just say it a different way, I'm less likely to mark it up if I have to write out my comments by hand.

Also, seniors in my group usually just send along riders for more lengthy comments and let the junior conform/incorporate the language into our doc.
I've noticed that only if someone really botches a document will the senior associate have to actually send track changes or if it's really a lost cause, they may just jump in the document and fix it themselves.

My partners I work for do all of these things and none of them do hand-marks. You just use the comment bubbles in the track function.

[nixy]

Only one partner/MD did this and I thought it was really good system.

He just changed the font of stuff he wanted changed to red and inserted a comment and made the interns and juniors make changes themselves.

I'm confused how this is easier/better than track changes?

[Vexed]

Strange comments ITT. Agree with the above. Handmarking documents is totally the norm and is usually easier for reviewers to read/comment on paper as opposed to a computer screen. The people who are railing against it in this thread clearly have not been in Biglaw.

oh ok brb gotta let my group know we're not in biglaw

[LaLiLuLeLo]

Strange comments ITT. Agree with the above. Handmarking documents is totally the norm and is usually easier for reviewers to read/comment on paper as opposed to a computer screen. The people who are railing against it in this thread clearly have not been in Biglaw.

oh ok brb gotta let my group know we're not in biglaw

I’ll wake up and realize it was all a dream and my life hasn’t been a waste being a biglaw attorney

[Daboose]

You're just describing passing that same inefficiency to the junior. I'm sure you are more "efficient" than your colleagues working digitally, but that's because they're literally doing more of the actual work of putting the document together whereas you're passing that leg of the work onto the junior.

Yes, passing that leg of the work to someone whose billing rate is half of mine. That’s why we push stuff like incorporating comments down.

It really only works out that way if the extra time it would take you to do a digital mark is roughly equivalent or longer to how long it takes the junior to incorporate your mark-up digitally. Seeing as they're doing they're not just doing the digital mark-up you would have done but have the added task of interpreting your hand mark-up, that is unlikely. Plus, even if they're the same cost efficiency the first scenario goes out the door faster.

And now that I am also reviewing junior work, hand markups are much quicker for me and it keeps me from making unnecessary and/or annoying comments. If something is drafted generally fine but maybe I would just say it a different way, I'm less likely to mark it up if I have to write out my comments by hand.

Also, seniors in my group usually just send along riders for more lengthy comments and let the junior conform/incorporate the language into our doc.
I've noticed that only if someone really botches a document will the senior associate have to actually send track changes or if it's really a lost cause, they may just jump in the document and fix it themselves.

My partners I work for do all of these things and none of them do hand-marks. You just use the comment bubbles in the track function.

I think the difference in billable rates doesn't tell the whole story. At my firm, juniors are billed out at $500-650 and midlevels/seniors are around $700-800 with junior partners coming in around $900-1000, so there is not that much difference in hourly rate relative to seniority. Senior associates can get work done drastically faster than I can, so if you wanted to be perfectly efficient, you would have the senior associate do all the work but that is just not how law firms are set up. Senior associates are on more deals than the juniors so from a time efficiency perspective, it makes sense for them to push down as much work as their clients are willing to pay the inefficient junior associate rates for.