BigLaw firms that are progressive about working remote Forum

[Anonymous User]

Been doing a lot of reading on the benefits (both wellness wise and efficiency wise) of remote working. I know some firms are starting to embrace it in some capacity — a handful are now allowing associates to work from home several days a week/month without any questions asked. Eg Shearman, Weil recently... I even heard that Paul Weiss is allowing a partner to work from Hawaii.

But I feel like there’s a lack of real info on who actually allows for this and millennials are afraid to make the push for more. Seems silly to me given how much of this job really can be done from anywhere. Also seems like partners who want the most productivity from their associates should consider what enabling them to cut two hours of commute time from their day would mean. To say nothing of what this would mean for diversity efforts!

Would love to hear any reflections “from the field” on this.

[objctnyrhnr]

My view is this, which might not be a popular one: yes some firms are going to expressly say there’s no FaceTime requirement, and many firms aren’t going to make a thing about an occasional remote working day.

Now that being said, for a junior/mid arriving at a firm and looking to make a good impression, I don’t think it’s a good idea. This is the time that you will be 1. Learning everything and 2. Trying to get partner allies/mentors. Even assuming all other things are equal, is the partner going to get closer with the associate s/he sees every day and occasionally gets lunch/coffee/beer with, or the associate who just dials into phone calls? In sum, I see working remotely with frequency (whether technically permitted or not) as coming with more cons than pros for a young associate.

For better or worse, in order to really do the biglaw thing right (and maybe even enjoy a some of it), I think that one needs to immerse themselves in it. This is inconsistent with more than a work from home day every few weeks as a junior, IMHO.

Now once your rep is solidified, I think that number could creep up to remote work every 1-2 weeks, but I still wouldn’t go higher.

[nixy]

I get a lot of your arguments. I think to those opposed to the practice, the length of your commute isn’t going to be very convincing (just move closer to work), nor the diversity argument (how does allowing remote work contribute to diversity?). And a partner working from Hawaii is obviously not your typical case (certain partners are going to be able to do essentially what they like). So I think you might have to work on your pitch?

That said, it’s likely to vary a lot by firm, and maybe group, depending on how the people you work for feel about it.

[ghostoftraynor]

My view is this, which might not be a popular one: yes some firms are going to expressly say there’s no FaceTime requirement, and many firms aren’t going to make a thing about an occasional remote working day.

Now that being said, for a junior/mid arriving at a firm and looking to make a good impression, I don’t think it’s a good idea. This is the time that you will be 1. Learning everything and 2. Trying to get partner allies/mentors. Even assuming all other things are equal, is the partner going to get closer with the associate s/he sees every day and occasionally gets lunch/coffee/beer with, or the associate who just dials into phone calls? In sum, I see working remotely with frequency (whether technically permitted or not) as coming with more cons than pros for a young associate.

For better or worse, in order to really do the biglaw thing right (and maybe even enjoy a some of it), I think that one needs to immerse themselves in it. This is inconsistent with more than a work from home day every few weeks as a junior, IMHO.

Now once your rep is solidified, I think that number could creep up to remote work every 1-2 weeks, but I still wouldn’t go higher.

I think a lot of this is very situation specific. If you are often working with people in other offices, there can be little difference working from home or coming to the office in terms of face-to-face interaction. A first year should definitely generally always be in the office during business hours, but otherwise I think how feasible this is going to vary widely.

Anecdotally, NY offices seem to be much bigger sticklers about facetime. See, e.g., DPW associate tracking system.

*accidental anon. This is ghostoftraynor.

[Slippin' Jimmy]

My view is this, which might not be a popular one: yes some firms are going to expressly say there’s no FaceTime requirement, and many firms aren’t going to make a thing about an occasional remote working day.

Now that being said, for a junior/mid arriving at a firm and looking to make a good impression, I don’t think it’s a good idea. This is the time that you will be 1. Learning everything and 2. Trying to get partner allies/mentors. Even assuming all other things are equal, is the partner going to get closer with the associate s/he sees every day and occasionally gets lunch/coffee/beer with, or the associate who just dials into phone calls? In sum, I see working remotely with frequency (whether technically permitted or not) as coming with more cons than pros for a young associate.

For better or worse, in order to really do the biglaw thing right (and maybe even enjoy a some of it), I think that one needs to immerse themselves in it. This is inconsistent with more than a work from home day every few weeks as a junior, IMHO.

Now once your rep is solidified, I think that number could creep up to remote work every 1-2 weeks, but I still wouldn’t go higher.

I think a lot of this is very situation specific. If you are often working with people in other offices, there can be little difference working from home or coming to the office in terms of face-to-face interaction. A first year should definitely generally always be in the office during business hours, but otherwise I think how feasible this is going to vary widely.

Anecdotally, NY offices seem to be much bigger sticklers about facetime. See, e.g., DPW associate tracking system.

*accidental anon. This is ghostoftraynor.

Not to take the thread too off topic, but what kind of associate tracking system does DPW have? Do they microchip you after you get an offer?

[UnfrozenCaveman]

It's going to be firm-dependent, practice-group dependent and partner-dependent on this. Probably going to have the best luck at the massive firms with multiple power centers.

[inter-associate]

Personally not a big fan of working remotely. I agree that most of what we do can be done at any location with a decent printer/scanner and two screen setup, but much of what we learn comes from actual interaction. Sitting in a partner's office during a call may seem pointless when everyone can dial in, but learning by osmosis is a thing, and that gets lost without actually being there. Much of my ability to pay attention to detail came from observing how the first partner I worked for reviewed documents. It wasn't just his markups, but watching how he slowly and methodically worked through docs went a long way toward my development as a lawyer.

As a senior associate now, there is nothing I hate more than asking someone to come down to my office to review a markup only to learn that they are working remotely. Yes, I can scan the doc and we can flip it on a call. But in my experience that has never been as effective as walking through it in person.

I personally also dislike working from home generally, but I can accept that others have a different view.

Ultimately, I think working remotely that should be a tool to enable folks to manage life outside the firm, such as personal issues that pop up, sick days, holidays and working in the evenings. Unfortunately it has been abused by those who try to stay away from the office and by firms to destroy any semblance of a life outside of work (such as vacations).

[Ultramar vistas]

Personally not a big fan of working remotely. I agree that most of what we do can be done at any location with a decent printer/scanner and two screen setup, but much of what we learn comes from actual interaction. Sitting in a partner's office during a call may seem pointless when everyone can dial in, but learning by osmosis is a thing, and that gets lost without actually being there. Much of my ability to pay attention to detail came from observing how the first partner I worked for reviewed documents. It wasn't just his markups, but watching how he slowly and methodically worked through docs went a long way toward my development as a lawyer.

As a senior associate now, there is nothing I hate more than asking someone to come down to my office to review a markup only to learn that they are working remotely. Yes, I can scan the doc and we can flip it on a call. But in my experience that has never been as effective as walking through it in person.

I personally also dislike working from home generally, but I can accept that others have a different view.

Ultimately, I think working remotely that should be a tool to enable folks to manage life outside the firm, such as personal issues that pop up, sick days, holidays and working in the evenings. Unfortunately it has been abused by those who try to stay away from the office and by firms to destroy any semblance of a life outside of work (such as vacations).

What a wonderful anecdote, you sound like a joy to work for. Unfortunately, completely not what OP asked.

[MaxMcMann]

Personally not a big fan of working remotely. I agree that most of what we do can be done at any location with a decent printer/scanner and two screen setup, but much of what we learn comes from actual interaction. Sitting in a partner's office during a call may seem pointless when everyone can dial in, but learning by osmosis is a thing, and that gets lost without actually being there. Much of my ability to pay attention to detail came from observing how the first partner I worked for reviewed documents. It wasn't just his markups, but watching how he slowly and methodically worked through docs went a long way toward my development as a lawyer.

As a senior associate now, there is nothing I hate more than asking someone to come down to my office to review a markup only to learn that they are working remotely. Yes, I can scan the doc and we can flip it on a call. But in my experience that has never been as effective as walking through it in person.

I personally also dislike working from home generally, but I can accept that others have a different view.

Ultimately, I think working remotely that should be a tool to enable folks to manage life outside the firm, such as personal issues that pop up, sick days, holidays and working in the evenings. Unfortunately it has been abused by those who try to stay away from the office and by firms to destroy any semblance of a life outside of work (such as vacations).

What a wonderful anecdote, you sound like a joy to work for. Unfortunately, completely not what OP asked.

Great use of anon.

[abiglawyer]

Typical TLS exchange:

OP: I love my dog and want to know if anyone else has tips on keeping a dog with a biglaw workload?

1st reply: As a senior associate I hate dogs. I kick them when I see them on the street. I would take joy in being cruel to them if I were still capable of feeling anything

2nd reply (anon): That doesn’t answer OP’s question also you sound just like my boss

3rd reply (0L): Wow great use of anon! Anyway here’s the definitive answer on working as a biglawyer with a dog based on talking to my uncle, who is the only licensed attorney I’ve ever spoken with

[Excellent117]

In my experience and speaking with friends in biglaw, the prevalence and acceptance of working remotely is much more driven by practice group and age of the partners in the group than it is by specific firms, at least at the moment.

It's going to be easier to work remotely in a corporate group than a litigation group (generally speaking), and it's going to be easier to work remotely for younger partners (again, generally speaking). It also seems like the more international the practice, the more common it is for associates and partners to work remotely on a regular basis.

[byrdscales]

Agree that it's very practice (and even office) dependent. Both tech trans groups I've worked in have been extremely accommodating of working remotely, e.g. I could not come in for a week and so long as I'm doing my work, no one would care. My impression is the corporate teams at the firms where I've worked don't get that flexibility, and with litigation it's very partner/senior associate dependent.

[inter-associate]

Personally not a big fan of working remotely. I agree that most of what we do can be done at any location with a decent printer/scanner and two screen setup, but much of what we learn comes from actual interaction. Sitting in a partner's office during a call may seem pointless when everyone can dial in, but learning by osmosis is a thing, and that gets lost without actually being there. Much of my ability to pay attention to detail came from observing how the first partner I worked for reviewed documents. It wasn't just his markups, but watching how he slowly and methodically worked through docs went a long way toward my development as a lawyer.

As a senior associate now, there is nothing I hate more than asking someone to come down to my office to review a markup only to learn that they are working remotely. Yes, I can scan the doc and we can flip it on a call. But in my experience that has never been as effective as walking through it in person.

I personally also dislike working from home generally, but I can accept that others have a different view.

Ultimately, I think working remotely that should be a tool to enable folks to manage life outside the firm, such as personal issues that pop up, sick days, holidays and working in the evenings. Unfortunately it has been abused by those who try to stay away from the office and by firms to destroy any semblance of a life outside of work (such as vacations).

What a wonderful anecdote, you sound like a joy to work for. Unfortunately, completely not what OP asked.

Fair - I skipped to the "reflections from the field" at the end and missed the meat of the question, although I disagree that preferring to meet with juniors in person makes me miserable to work for (I've got plenty of other character flaws that cover me there).

My experience has been that firms with more collaboration between locations and those where practice groups don't sit on the same floor tend to be more flexible with working remotely. I understand that associates at Latham NY tend to work remotely pretty frequently, to the point that it caused grumblings by the partnership (not sure if anything has changed since the last I heard). Second the point that this is very firm/office/practice group specific. If partners and senior associates never expect to talk with juniors in person then working remotely is likely going to be rampant.

[RaceJudicata]

My firm has a remote working program in place (allows for a few days at home per week). Plenty of people - mostly those with kids/long commute - take advantage of the policy and seem to enjoy it. But I think the policy just formalized the norm (for my group, at least). Plenty of associates were already working a day or two (or more) per week remotely.

Again, office/group dependent, but I don’t think the associates who utilize the policy miss out on any meaningful interaction/development. But a lot of that is because the partners in my office/group work remotely WAY more than any associate.

[dabigchina]

But a lot of that is because the partners in my office/group work remotely WAY more than any associate.

This. My partners come into work maybe two or three times a week. I come in on those days. When they are working from home, there's no reason for me to sit alone in an empty hallway.

[totesTheGoat]

Unfortunately it has been abused by those who try to stay away from the office

I'd say that the abuse is more from the people who don't actually work, but that happens both in the office and remotely.

I would work from home 5 days per week if I could. My "clients" (I'm in-house) are 3000 miles and half a world away, respectively. The only reason I have for going into the office is to see my manager face-to-face. I'm more productive at home, too. Sure, the 2 year old may occasionally want to go for a spin on the office chair, but I don't have 10 different people trying to strike up conversations with me in order to ask for small favors and pull me into site-specific makework.

[RedGiant]

Cosign all of the advice that this is a privilege not to be abused, but you should take advantage if it's OK, and if colleagues at the same level do so.

Do not be the first year at my prior firm who bought a house on Cape Cod and left every Thursday at 4pm "to beat traffic" and then "worked remote" on Friday with a response time of 2-3 hours. Do not. It will not end well, even if you have a house on Cape Cod.

You really do learn a lot and forge alliances by partners dropping by, staffing you on matters, and _acting like you want to be at work_.

Also, OP, I have worked in NY, Boston, London and SV and SV was by far the most progressive in terms of working remote.

[wons]

The answer to this question also depends much on what your goals are. If you’re just aiming to be a good document turner who leaves for an in house job after a resume-appropriate number of years, you probably can get away with lots more remote work - the vast majority of the actual work can be done anywhere.

But - and this is a big but - lots of the stuff that eventually helps you become a successful senior lawyer requires you to be present in person. Taking calls live and debriefing informally afterwards. Getting pulled into client meeting and lunches at the last minute if someone has to bail. Answering quick questions from the partner down the hall who doesn’t know your practice well but doesn’t want to bother the partner with what may be a stupid question. All this is like 5% or less of the TIME of your job but it’s disproportionately important, and you lose it when you’re remote.

Separately, for many fire drill, group intensive projects, remote work isn’t really viable, but you can steer around those if you are focused on not coming to the office. It limits your practice options somewhat (transactional work, and particularly M&A and restructuring generally require more face time to deal with fire drills) but that may be worth it to you.

[Anonymous User]

I have two comments:

1) Shearman's remote work policy is no where near as used as they advertise. I was in the lit group and we could use it occasionally, but not often, and in corporate it's almost a joke.

2) To the senior associate above who thinks remote work should only be used to "manage life," those types of viewpoints on culture are exactly why remote work hasn't progressed enough. If someone is in the office regularly enough to have the connections needed and can also balance that with working at home occasionally, why does working at home need to be reserved for people with issues that pop up / have kids / etc? How is it any of your business why someone chooses to work from home, if it isn't otherwise impacting their work?

[Halp]

I have two comments:

1) Shearman's remote work policy is no where near as used as they advertise. I was in the lit group and we could use it occasionally, but not often, and in corporate it's almost a joke.

2) To the senior associate above who thinks remote work should only be used to "manage life," those types of viewpoints on culture are exactly why remote work hasn't progressed enough. If someone is in the office regularly enough to have the connections needed and can also balance that with working at home occasionally, why does working at home need to be reserved for people with issues that pop up / have kids / etc? How is it any of your business why someone chooses to work from home, if it isn't otherwise impacting their work?

BeCausE kIdS todAy dONt WorK hArD enOuGh.

[inter-associate]

I have two comments:

2) To the senior associate above who thinks remote work should only be used to "manage life," those types of viewpoints on culture are exactly why remote work hasn't progressed enough. If someone is in the office regularly enough to have the connections needed and can also balance that with working at home occasionally, why does working at home need to be reserved for people with issues that pop up / have kids / etc? How is it any of your business why someone chooses to work from home, if it isn't otherwise impacting their work?

I would counter that in some folk's view working remotely has already progressed too far. It is an argument that can go back and forth forever and we are way too early into this trend to know its true impact on productivity and mental health. I will confess that I have no idea other than how working remotely affects me (and I acknowledge that everyone is different on this front).

As to how is it any of my business why they work from home - employers have always made it their business, that's where the concept of sick/personal/vacation days came from. To take a more middle of the road approach - if it truly has no impact on work then I don't really care. The issue I have (as do a number of more senior folks) is that it does impact my work when I have to waste time scanning 100 page docs and trying to flip them on calls. Maybe I'm not progressive enough on this front, but my understanding is that it is the junior folks' responsibility to adapt to their supervisors and not the other way around.

This really goes back to the view that everyone is expressing here - this is completely dependent on who you work with, and I have absolutely no problems with this. Maybe the trend will pick up steam as younger attorneys advance and the culture will change, but I don't otherwise see why the folks at the top are obligated to make their lives more difficult just to allow first years to work in their PJs.

[Wild Card]

Anecdotally, NY offices seem to be much bigger sticklers about facetime. See, e.g., DPW associate tracking system.

Guys, pls STFU: I want to learn more about why DPW sucks.

[LaLiLuLeLo]

Anecdotally, NY offices seem to be much bigger sticklers about facetime. See, e.g., DPW associate tracking system.

Guys, pls STFU: I want to learn more about why DPW sucks.

DPW becomes the only NY to 210, but you have to wear an ankle monitor. Accept?

[texas1100]

Do not be the first year at my prior firm who bought a house on Cape Cod and left every Thursday at 4pm "to beat traffic" and then "worked remote" on Friday with a response time of 2-3 hours. Do not. It will not end well, even if you have a house on Cape Cod.

As a counterpoint, this is not atypical at my current firm (to dip out slightly early Thursday and work remote Friday). The delayed response time is the issue. You have to be just as responsive and efficient if working remote. It's the people that go out and about doing things as if they're off, while working remote, that have it bite them in the ass.

[Wild Card]

Anecdotally, NY offices seem to be much bigger sticklers about facetime. See, e.g., DPW associate tracking system.

Guys, pls STFU: I want to learn more about why DPW sucks.

DPW becomes the only NY to 210, but you have to wear an ankle monitor. Accept?

Only if I can just sleep in the office to avoid paying ~$30,000 in Manhattan rent.