Detroit exit options Forum

[Anonymous User]

Hey all, slightly below median at a lower t-14 here. Thinking of throwing in maybe 2-4 OCI bids for the Detroit market. I went to Michigan for undergrad and still have friends in the area as well as my SO's family. I figured it'd be a good idea to explore a couple secondary markets given my grades.

Particularly, Honigman intrigues me. I'm interested in corporate work and based on their website the seem to promote to partner after four years (.....???). Also, Vault has them as the #3 firm for business outlook, slotted right between Wachtell and Williams & Connolly, which I find strange/intriguing for a regional firm, although I'm not quite sure what the criteria is for that category.

Problem is, I'm not sure I want to be in Michigan forever. I was happy there as a college student and I'm sure my SO would love to live there the rest of her life. I'd be happy living in Michigan for 3-5 years, but at the end of the day I'd want my career to end in NY. My entire family (and most of my SO's family) is in New York and that's where I've always wanted to ultimately end up.

Putting aside the issues with Michigan not being a UBE state, what kinds of obstacles can I expect if I decided to go this route? Would starting my career in Detroit pigeonhole me to the Midwest? Would I have to try to sneak into Chicago first and then ride that to NY? Essentially, would I have a hard time hustling to get back to the Northeast, or would it be like any other out-of-town lateral?

[SFSpartan]

Bay Area corporate midlevel with Michigan ties. Explored lateraling to Michigan in 2018, but ultimately decided against it. Based on that, a couple observations here:

1. Outside of ranking NYC corporate practices, Vault is useless.

2. My impression of the Detroit legal market is that it's MUCH smaller than the big markets, and, subject to exceptions (i.e. Honigman's private equity team, Bodman for bank/finance work, etc.) tends to have less sophisticated work than Chicago/NYC/other major markets, both in terms of sophistication and volume. There's a reason there are really only a couple big shops in Michigan.

3. I think it's probably easier to lateral the other way (starting out in NY/Chicago and moving to Michigan) because of the above. I'm sure a Michigan to NYC move is possible, but it will probably be demonstrably tougher than moving the other way.

4. I didn't have a super positive impression of the people at Honigman. They seem to really want to be a major player in the national legal market, and think of themselves as such, but I really don't see them that way. With the exception of Jones Day, all of the firms in Michigan are just regional players.

[deanrobbins1]

But SFSpartan, tell us what you REALLY think about the utility of Vault, aside from ranking NYC corporate practices, of course.

[SFSpartan]

But SFSpartan, tell us what you REALLY think about the utility of Vault, aside from ranking NYC corporate practices, of course.

Not sure what the point of this is - OP shouldn't use Vault as a proxy for ranking Honigman's relative prestige. Honigman is a great law firm, but slotting it between Cravath and W&C seems kind of ridiculous,

[cheaptilts]

The vault survey on “business outlook” is basically associates rating how they think the business outlook is for their specific firm. I wouldn’t think anything of it; it may just be that associates there think the Detroit legal market/economy is booming and will continue to boom for awhile. I note that you’re also looking at 2019’s ranking; 2020 is totally different (and Honigman is absent from the list you were referring to). Each year is totally different.

I wouldn’t start in Detroit hoping to lateral to NYC biglaw corporate department as a 3-5th year. You may be able to pull that off as a first year, but you’d be a hard sell as a 4th year.

[Anonymous User]

Sorry to piggyback here, but I’ve been mulling over putting out some lateral apps to the Detroit market (junior/mid level, litigation). Anyone have idea what the larger firms are paying these days for 3-4 year associates?

I have close family ties to metro Detroit, and am currently in Chicago biglaw.

[Anonymous User]

Anon because I don’t want people linking back to person:

My classmate used to work at Honigman. He was able to lateral to a V50 in Chicago. He had more difficulty finding an offer in NY. He said that Honigman is a good firm but it operates like a boutique that really requires associates to drum up business early on, which can be stressful. He said the firm was really supportive and great, but, at the end of the day, it was just a different type of firm he wasn’t interested in.

[Anonymous User]

Hey all, slightly below median at a lower t-14 here. Thinking of throwing in maybe 2-4 OCI bids for the Detroit market. I went to Michigan for undergrad and still have friends in the area as well as my SO's family. I figured it'd be a good idea to explore a couple secondary markets given my grades.

Particularly, Honigman intrigues me. I'm interested in corporate work and based on their website the seem to promote to partner after four years (.....???). Also, Vault has them as the #3 firm for business outlook, slotted right between Wachtell and Williams & Connolly, which I find strange/intriguing for a regional firm, although I'm not quite sure what the criteria is for that category.

Problem is, I'm not sure I want to be in Michigan forever. I was happy there as a college student and I'm sure my SO would love to live there the rest of her life. I'd be happy living in Michigan for 3-5 years, but at the end of the day I'd want my career to end in NY. My entire family (and most of my SO's family) is in New York and that's where I've always wanted to ultimately end up.

Putting aside the issues with Michigan not being a UBE state, what kinds of obstacles can I expect if I decided to go this route? Would starting my career in Detroit pigeonhole me to the Midwest? Would I have to try to sneak into Chicago first and then ride that to NY? Essentially, would I have a hard time hustling to get back to the Northeast, or would it be like any other out-of-town lateral?

FYI I'm in the MI market. You will work close to NYC hours at Honigman corp. But, it is a great firm and everybody in Michigan respects it (or should). I really enjoy the attorneys I know from Honigman minus one guy... It is really selective though. Also, Honigman has two tiers of partner. 4 years = nonequity partner.

Foley and Jones Day also have offices in Detroit if you want to try a national firm. However, their headcount is way less than Honigman's.

[Anonymous User]

The vault survey on “business outlook” is basically associates rating how they think the business outlook is for their specific firm. I wouldn’t think anything of it; it may just be that associates there think the Detroit legal market/economy is booming and will continue to boom for awhile. I note that you’re also looking at 2019’s ranking; 2020 is totally different (and Honigman is absent from the list you were referring to). Each year is totally different.

I wouldn’t start in Detroit hoping to lateral to NYC biglaw corporate department as a 3-5th year. You may be able to pull that off as a first year, but you’d be a hard sell as a 4th year.

OP here. Why would it be a harder sell as a 4th year than a 1st year? Would it be a question of whether or not I've gotten worthwhile training or a question of if I'm going to stay in NY?

[Anonymous User]

But SFSpartan, tell us what you REALLY think about the utility of Vault, aside from ranking NYC corporate practices, of course.

Not sure what the point of this is - OP shouldn't use Vault as a proxy for ranking Honigman's relative prestige. Honigman is a great law firm, but slotting it between Cravath and W&C seems kind of ridiculous,

OP here. Obviously it's not on the level of those kinds of firms, I was more surprised that they'd be anywhere close to that caliber of firm in any metric. But I see what you're saying.

[Anonymous User]

Anon because I don’t want people linking back to person:

My classmate used to work at Honigman. He was able to lateral to a V50 in Chicago. He had more difficulty finding an offer in NY. He said that Honigman is a good firm but it operates like a boutique that really requires associates to drum up business early on, which can be stressful. He said the firm was really supportive and great, but, at the end of the day, it was just a different type of firm he wasn’t interested in.

Good to hear at least that they're decent people over there. Any chance you can speak a little bit more as to his process of lateraling? Did he have ties to NY or Chicago?

[Anonymous User]

Hey all, slightly below median at a lower t-14 here. Thinking of throwing in maybe 2-4 OCI bids for the Detroit market. I went to Michigan for undergrad and still have friends in the area as well as my SO's family. I figured it'd be a good idea to explore a couple secondary markets given my grades.

Particularly, Honigman intrigues me. I'm interested in corporate work and based on their website the seem to promote to partner after four years (.....???). Also, Vault has them as the #3 firm for business outlook, slotted right between Wachtell and Williams & Connolly, which I find strange/intriguing for a regional firm, although I'm not quite sure what the criteria is for that category.

Problem is, I'm not sure I want to be in Michigan forever. I was happy there as a college student and I'm sure my SO would love to live there the rest of her life. I'd be happy living in Michigan for 3-5 years, but at the end of the day I'd want my career to end in NY. My entire family (and most of my SO's family) is in New York and that's where I've always wanted to ultimately end up.

Putting aside the issues with Michigan not being a UBE state, what kinds of obstacles can I expect if I decided to go this route? Would starting my career in Detroit pigeonhole me to the Midwest? Would I have to try to sneak into Chicago first and then ride that to NY? Essentially, would I have a hard time hustling to get back to the Northeast, or would it be like any other out-of-town lateral?

FYI I'm in the MI market. You will work close to NYC hours at Honigman corp. But, it is a great firm and everybody in Michigan respects it (or should). I really enjoy the attorneys I know from Honigman minus one guy... It is really selective though. Also, Honigman has two tiers of partner. 4 years = nonequity partner.

Foley and Jones Day also have offices in Detroit if you want to try a national firm. However, their headcount is way less than Honigman's.

Yeah, according to NALP Foley only takes 2 SA's in Detroit and Jones Day takes 4. Not exactly ideal if that's what I'm shooting for.

[cheaptilts]

The vault survey on “business outlook” is basically associates rating how they think the business outlook is for their specific firm. I wouldn’t think anything of it; it may just be that associates there think the Detroit legal market/economy is booming and will continue to boom for awhile. I note that you’re also looking at 2019’s ranking; 2020 is totally different (and Honigman is absent from the list you were referring to). Each year is totally different.

I wouldn’t start in Detroit hoping to lateral to NYC biglaw corporate department as a 3-5th year. You may be able to pull that off as a first year, but you’d be a hard sell as a 4th year.

OP here. Why would it be a harder sell as a 4th year than a 1st year? Would it be a question of whether or not I've gotten worthwhile training or a question of if I'm going to stay in NY?

The former.