Is DC QoL any better than NYC? Forum

[eightleggedfreaks]

I'm targeting Chicago. I'm a hair above median at Duke. Everyone has been telling me to bid NYC but I am kicking and screaming about it because while I love New York City, I hate everything between 106th street and the Village--so, I'd be working every single day in one of my least favorite places. Furthermore, I've heard the quality of life at biglaw firms in NYC is just awful.

I was hoping to get a Chicago offer and spend the rest of my bids on DC (I know it's a crapshoot, but I'm not going for a Williams and Connolly or a Covington or anything). The logic here is that DC is more bearable than NYC and I think I'd like to incorporate regulatory work into my practice.

But is DC actually more bearable? Am I less likely to have to cancel a vacation or get a 2am phone call to come into the office in DC? Or is it just a pickier New York? Thanks!

[barkschool]

What’s your career service list look like for folks with your GPA, that’ll probably be your best guide.

Alternatively, if your from Chicago you’ll probably do good bidding there from Duke.

[Anonymous User]

I’ve worked in biglaw in dc and nyc. Yes dc has a better quality of life if you’re talking strictly work hours. But DC is very very hard to get. It’s the most grade conscious legal market, and very lit/regulatory focused/government contracts focused. DC firms are also harder to make partner at unless you get some government experience at some point. Lots of partners are laterals from government. And some of the firms don’t pay market. Also, you have to live in DC, Virginia or Maryland which are fine, but not comparable to the vibe in NYC imo. I had far fewer hours in DC, but New York was more enjoyable place to be an associate.

[eightleggedfreaks]

What’s your career service list look like for folks with your GPA, that’ll probably be your best guide.

Alternatively, if your from Chicago you’ll probably do good bidding there from Duke.

That's the plan re: DC-- only target schools that have actually hired people with my GPA.

[eightleggedfreaks]

I’ve worked in biglaw in dc and nyc. Yes dc has a better quality of life if you’re talking strictly work hours. But DC is very very hard to get. It’s the most grade conscious legal market, and very lit/regulatory focused/government contracts focused. DC firms are also harder to make partner at unless you get some government experience at some point. Lots of partners are laterals from government. And some of the firms don’t pay market. Also, you have to live in DC, Virginia or Maryland which are fine, but not comparable to the vibe in NYC imo. I had far fewer hours in DC, but New York was more enjoyable place to be an associate.

I like to go to bed at 10 or 11 every night-- I'd definitely take far fewer hours and less craziness. And I'm interested in lit and regulatory anyway so. My big concern is grade consciousness, to be sure.

[Anonymous User]

I’m a DC associate at a V10 with friends in NYC. Work conditions are incalculably better here than in NYC. No expectations that you be in the office until 1am—most people leave between 5:30 and 7 and log on again from home. Highly recommend and can’t imagine going anywhere else.

[Anonymous User]

I’m a DC associate at a V10 with friends in NYC. Work conditions are incalculably better here than in NYC. No expectations that you be in the office until 1am—most people leave between 5:30 and 7 and log on again from home. Highly recommend and can’t imagine going anywhere else.

Nobody at my NY V50 is expected to do any of that. Most people leave between 6-8 and log in at home too. I think you're painting with too broad of strokes. Are there scenarios where you'll need to be in the office at 1 AM if you're doing deal work? Sure. Is it required on a typical day? Not remotely.

[Anonymous User]

OP, I kinda went into interviews with a similar mentality to yours (not elite grades, but good enough where I felt comfortable bidding DC heavily)

the problem I ran into was that once you get out of the elite in DC (covington/W&C/etc.) the classes/offices get pretty small, and they also usually have relatively specific or niche practice groups.

so when it came time to go to a callback or something, I would get asked things like "why are you interested in specific statutory/reg practice XYZ" and I didn't have a good answers

so just be aware of that. I wish I had realized it before going into the whole interview process as a 2L. I probably would not have targeted DC so hard if I had, because it just wasn't a good fit for me (ignoring lifestyle concerns) and as an applicant your chances of even getting an offer are that much lower (10-12 person classes compared to the huge ones in NY)

[eightleggedfreaks]

OP, I kinda went into interviews with a similar mentality to yours (not elite grades, but good enough where I felt comfortable bidding DC heavily)

the problem I ran into was that once you get out of the elite in DC (covington/W&C/etc.) the classes/offices get pretty small, and they also usually have relatively specific or niche practice groups.

so when it came time to go to a callback or something, I would get asked things like "why are you interested in specific statutory/reg practice XYZ" and I didn't have a good answers

so just be aware of that. I wish I had realized it before going into the whole interview process as a 2L. I probably would not have targeted DC so hard if I had, because it just wasn't a good fit for me (ignoring lifestyle concerns) and as an applicant your chances of even getting an offer are that much lower (10-12 person classes compared to the huge ones in NY)

So what ended up happening for you? Also, is there any reason I can't bid 15 Chicago firms, 7-8 DC and 7-8 NYC? Thanks for the advice.

[Anonymous User]

OP, I kinda went into interviews with a similar mentality to yours (not elite grades, but good enough where I felt comfortable bidding DC heavily)

the problem I ran into was that once you get out of the elite in DC (covington/W&C/etc.) the classes/offices get pretty small, and they also usually have relatively specific or niche practice groups.

so when it came time to go to a callback or something, I would get asked things like "why are you interested in specific statutory/reg practice XYZ" and I didn't have a good answers

so just be aware of that. I wish I had realized it before going into the whole interview process as a 2L. I probably would not have targeted DC so hard if I had, because it just wasn't a good fit for me (ignoring lifestyle concerns) and as an applicant your chances of even getting an offer are that much lower (10-12 person classes compared to the huge ones in NY)

So what ended up happening for you? Thanks for the advice.

I ended up taking my lack of success/positive results in DC really hard when it was happening live. all my friends were getting amazing jobs and I just internalized all my stress/fear at the time, rather than communicating with career services/friends. beat myself up and felt real ashamed/pathetic. in a "what is wrong with me" kind of way.

so my callbacks went pretty badly as a result. just got worse and worse. did not get a job straight out of the initial on campus/callback process despite pretty decent grades (at absolute minimum I was probably top third at a T14 after 1L)

ended up at a boutique shop for my 2L summer. really enjoyed it, but it wasn't going to be a long-term thing. then ended up at a major market big law firm through 3L interviewing.

I really hope no one else ever goes through what I went through. DC is wonderful, but if you're not competitive for the cream of the crop and satellite offices of elite firms elsewhere (i.e. S&C/cleary/DPW) then it gets pretty narrow/specific (in my experience). good to know going in.

[Anonymous User]

I’m at an above market NYC boutique with many law school friends in biglaw here, mostly V10-V15ish. The “stay-till-11pm” stuff is way overblown.

I supposed if you’re some extreme gunner, it’s possible to get enough work where you’re in the office until 10 every day. However, I’ve only stayed in the office past 9pm maybe 2 times this month. You can always take your work home or do catch-up/get ahead over the weekend.

I haven’t worked in DC though, but the only way I’d imagine DC firm life is “way better” than NYC life is if DC is a consistent 9-6 every day. Even then, in NY, you’re spending 1-2 hours more in the office a day, for an average of 5-10 more hours a week. Somehow I doubt DC biglaw is consistently 9-6.

The exception to what I’ve said is M&A. If you choose that life, all bets are off. Since that work is mostly in NY, I can see why people have the perception that NY has far worse work life than other places, but if you avoid M&A you’ll be fine.

[Anonymous User]

It is definitely better in DC at the firm where I worked in the NYC office. DC office was completely empty after 6 pm if I was visiting, and I was on the NY schedule still working for many hours after that. There was more of an expectation to still be in the office and not at home. I was in litigation. For months in NY, I was working until 3 am weekdays and still coming in on weekends. My lawyer friends all had/are having similar experiences at other firms. If you know already that you hate NY without working there, the work environment will make you hate your entire life. I would only recommend applying if you have a solid NY social network in place and you love the city.

[Anonymous User]

Another person who has worked v50+ in both and DC is so so much more relaxed even when working similar hours.

[Anonymous User]

I work in DC and though my hours aren’t bad (40ish billable hours a week), I seem to have to be on call at all times. The last two weekends, I’ve gotten emails at 9 pm on a Saturday, which obviously ruined my plans. They aren’t even emergency level things, they are just things the partner “needs” to have to the client “first thing Monday.”

But that also means I have entire days where I’m billing 0.

[SNightHighlights]

I'm targeting Chicago. I'm a hair above median at Duke. Everyone has been telling me to bid NYC but I am kicking and screaming about it because while I love New York City, I hate everything between 106th street and the Village--so, I'd be working every single day in one of my least favorite places. Furthermore, I've heard the quality of life at biglaw firms in NYC is just awful.

I was hoping to get a Chicago offer and spend the rest of my bids on DC (I know it's a crapshoot, but I'm not going for a Williams and Connolly or a Covington or anything). The logic here is that DC is more bearable than NYC and I think I'd like to incorporate regulatory work into my practice.

But is DC actually more bearable? Am I less likely to have to cancel a vacation or get a 2am phone call to come into the office in DC? Or is it just a pickier New York? Thanks!

If you're already favoring Chicago then you'd like DC > NY. I'm summering in Chi now but took a trip to my firm's NY office - couldn't believe how much more intense everyone is there. It really is a culture that my gentle Midwestern disposition can't handle - it's literally a city of gunners (I'm kidding, and mean that as more of a compliment, I promise).

[Elston Gunn]

It’s true that the average DC biglaw job is better than the average NYC biglaw job, by a decent distance. But I feel like it hasn’t been emphasized enough ITT how tough it is to get DC firm jobs. As just an example, a friend with strong DC ties, pre-law school experience in politics, and top 40% or better grades at NYU bid exclusively DC and he very nearly got shut out. And while I’ve never interviewed him I’d be shocked if he is a bad interviewer.

Now maybe things have changed a lot since when I was in school, but it strikes me as extremely risky to bid Chicago/DC from median at Duke.

[eightleggedfreaks]

It’s true that the average DC biglaw job is better than the average NYC biglaw job, by a decent distance. But I feel like it hasn’t been emphasized enough ITT how tough it is to get DC firm jobs. As just an example, a friend with strong DC ties, pre-law school experience in politics, and top 40% or better grades at NYU bid exclusively DC and he very nearly got shut out. And while I’ve never interviewed him I’d be shocked if he is a bad interviewer.

Now maybe things have changed a lot since when I was in school, but it strikes me as extremely risky to bid Chicago/DC from median at Duke.

Would your recommendation be to drop DC altogether, or could I split the non-Chicago bids between DC and NYC? I have a strong regulatory interest so I'm not just bidding DC for funsies.

[Anonymous User]

It’s true that the average DC biglaw job is better than the average NYC biglaw job, by a decent distance. But I feel like it hasn’t been emphasized enough ITT how tough it is to get DC firm jobs. As just an example, a friend with strong DC ties, pre-law school experience in politics, and top 40% or better grades at NYU bid exclusively DC and he very nearly got shut out. And while I’ve never interviewed him I’d be shocked if he is a bad interviewer.

Now maybe things have changed a lot since when I was in school, but it strikes me as extremely risky to bid Chicago/DC from median at Duke.

Would your recommendation be to drop DC altogether, or could I split the non-Chicago bids between DC and NYC? I have a strong regulatory interest so I'm not just bidding DC for funsies.

I know several people at my T13 that struck out of DC with median to top third grades but got great firms in NYC. At a minimum, I would bid plenty of NYC firms with big classes so that you have a backup for the likely tough time you'll have in DC.

[Elston Gunn]

It’s true that the average DC biglaw job is better than the average NYC biglaw job, by a decent distance. But I feel like it hasn’t been emphasized enough ITT how tough it is to get DC firm jobs. As just an example, a friend with strong DC ties, pre-law school experience in politics, and top 40% or better grades at NYU bid exclusively DC and he very nearly got shut out. And while I’ve never interviewed him I’d be shocked if he is a bad interviewer.

Now maybe things have changed a lot since when I was in school, but it strikes me as extremely risky to bid Chicago/DC from median at Duke.

Would your recommendation be to drop DC altogether, or could I split the non-Chicago bids between DC and NYC? I have a strong regulatory interest so I'm not just bidding DC for funsies.

There’s a lot of game theory involved that I never had to calculate, so I’m not sure. When I was going through OCI, I remember the conventional wisdom being that bidding more than two markets was usually a bad idea, but others can probably give more concrete advice.

[Anonymous User]

It’s true that the average DC biglaw job is better than the average NYC biglaw job, by a decent distance. But I feel like it hasn’t been emphasized enough ITT how tough it is to get DC firm jobs. As just an example, a friend with strong DC ties, pre-law school experience in politics, and top 40% or better grades at NYU bid exclusively DC and he very nearly got shut out. And while I’ve never interviewed him I’d be shocked if he is a bad interviewer.

Now maybe things have changed a lot since when I was in school, but it strikes me as extremely risky to bid Chicago/DC from median at Duke.

At Northwestern it seems like half of what career service does is talk medians out of bidding all Chicago.

I'm from NYC and want to go come back so it makes me ecstatic that 80% of my school hates New York with a passion for reasons I don't really understand. Chicago is boring as hell - it's 100% non confrontational. Maybe a good place to retire but why would you want to spend your youth there?

[DeMihiNonCuratLex]

...80% of my school hates New York with a passion for reasons I don't really understand. Chicago is boring as hell - it's 100% non confrontational. Maybe a good place to retire but why would you want to spend your youth [in a huge metropolitan area with lots of fun stuff to do, but isn’t New York]?

Hmm...why could your classmates not like New York? (I kid I kid...mostly)

[eightleggedfreaks]

It’s true that the average DC biglaw job is better than the average NYC biglaw job, by a decent distance. But I feel like it hasn’t been emphasized enough ITT how tough it is to get DC firm jobs. As just an example, a friend with strong DC ties, pre-law school experience in politics, and top 40% or better grades at NYU bid exclusively DC and he very nearly got shut out. And while I’ve never interviewed him I’d be shocked if he is a bad interviewer.

Now maybe things have changed a lot since when I was in school, but it strikes me as extremely risky to bid Chicago/DC from median at Duke.

At Northwestern it seems like half of what career service does is talk medians out of bidding all Chicago.

I'm from NYC and want to go come back so it makes me ecstatic that 80% of my school hates New York with a passion for reasons I don't really understand. Chicago is boring as hell - it's 100% non confrontational. Maybe a good place to retire but why would you want to spend your youth there?

....Because it's the greatest city in the country? Arts, food, affordable, literally a beach down half the city...I don't remotely understand how you find it boring, but have fun in NYC, I guess.

[hdivschool]

I don't think the number of markets you bid matters. What is more important is the selectivity of the firms you're bidding. Of course most of the big summer classes are at NY offices, so bidding anything other than NY almost always means you are bidding for more selective positions, e.g., you're trading a bid on a NY office with 50 summers for a bid on a DC office with 5-10 summers.