Do you like the people you work with? Forum

[Anonymous User]

Started a new job, about a month in... having some issues with firm politics.

How do you deal with such situations? I feel singled out at social events, etc, lunch breaks. Also a URM male (only URM attorney there). It’s Small/midlaw civil litigation firm. Never really get invited with the rest of the firm’s attorneys. The firm also has a higher female to male ratio. Work product is good so far, and am still getting work from these associates, however. This may change if they don’t really like me. Feel like firm doesn’t want to socialize with me... I’m learning to ignore this and focus on my work more, but how will this affect my reviews and end of year reviews when partner asks about me? I don’t really fit into the social scene and just don’t feel like I’m a “fit” yet. I need the money, so I work hard and try to ignore this stuff. It does bother me though, and I get upset.

Is this normal at law firms? I’ve done doc review before this, so this is my first firm job ever.

[AntipodeanPhil]

In my impression, being a lateral is a bit like being the new kid at high school - it can take a while for people to warm to you, and it's possible you'll never be fully included. Not sure how the URM aspect complicates this.

[Tenzen]

Mostly, yes.

But going from biglaw to a non-profit, I'm in a position where at least a few of my colleagues insist on being distrustful for me. Because, you know, I'm clearly passionate about corporations and oppressive structures, and wasn't in it for the money.

Edit: When I was in biglaw, I was in it for the money, and put aside the personal stuff in order to get what I needed to get. I'd offer you the same advice, don't take it personal if people don't like you or seem to treat you poorly. Didn't you experience awful people in law school? Or your last job? That's life, you just ignore the worst of folks and work for what you want. If you feel you must be liked by the people you work with, consider contacting lawyers who you know like you or who kinda liked you in law school, and figure out how to join their office. If that sounds absurd, it's because it would be an absurd thing to do. Don't play the character game, be yourself, flourish in your work, and supplement this desire to be liked outside of work.

I do understand the one valid part about other's opinions, i.e. that they can impact your career trajectory. But doesn't it seem absurd you're worried that you, the person who wants to be friends with your colleagues, will be penalized for not being friendly or social enough, when it's others who are preventing that from happening?

[Anonymous User]

OP here,

I guess I should also add that I come from a different social and cultural background from most at the firm as well. I’ve also never had shit growing up and am the first to be an attorney in my family. Most people here have been and are well off. That’s what I meant by “fit.” Also, all people here are married, have spouses, etc. here I am “much younger,” living the single life and still trying to balance personal with work life.

[Anonymous User]

Thanks a bunch for the advice.

[rcharter1978]

OP here,

I guess I should also add that I come from a different social and cultural background from most at the firm as well. I’ve also never had shit growing up and am the first to be an attorney in my family. Most people here have been and are well off. That’s what I meant by “fit.” Also, all people here are married, have spouses, etc. here I am “much younger,” living the single life and still trying to balance personal with work life.

I've never been in biglaw, but I've kind of been in your position, though I had a reasonably advantaged upbringing.

Where are they going that they don't invite you? Is it stuff they think you might not be interested in, like a ballet recital, or is it something like after work happy hour?

I think the best you can do is try to ingratiate yourself. Which sucks because it would be nice if they did as much as they could to welcome you...but, there it is.

Do they talk about the bachelor, game of thrones, some other show. If so, try to join in on those conversations. If you don't want to watch the shows, read a few message boards/reddits and you'll at least have some discussion points.

Everyone at my job loves true crime podcasts and so do I, so it was a way to talk to people.

Buy whatever shitty thing their kid is selling and if you can, make your order a little big (but not obvious). That $40 - $50 is a cheap way to buy goodwill, and the cookie dough/popcorn/gift wrap/girl scout cookies are good, just overpriced. You can regift most of it to a remote family member.

Ask people questions, open ended questions if you can. People like talking about themselves and while you have to pretend to be interested at first there is generally something unique and interesting about most people. And it can form the basis for building a work friendship.

[Bingo_Bongo]

I think everyone's in that same boat at one time or another. Cliques don't stop magically once you get out of high school.

I've had the pleasure working at many different places, under different leadership, with different people, and it's always a different dynamic. Sometimes I'll fit right in, love everyone, they'll love me right back, and it's great. There's been a few times I've definitely felt like the odd man out; there's been a few times I've jived well with a group, but our group didn't jive well with a different group; there have been times me and one or two other people clicked together really well, but everyone else was so-so; there have been a few times I've gotten along with most people, but butted heads with one or two others... it just depends on the dynamic of the workplace and the people. It'll always be different. I don't think there's anything unusual about what's happening with you.

If you don't become best friends with everyone in your office, so what? You're there to work, ultimately. The thing not to do, though, is to take anything personally, burn bridges, or give them a reason to turn from simply not clicking with you, to hating you. Just be professional, and be the person you would want to deal with.

And in the future, if you ever find yourself in the majority "clique" at work, remember how you felt being the odd man out and make an effort to try to be inclusive to the new guy/gal.

[nixy]

OP here,

I guess I should also add that I come from a different social and cultural background from most at the firm as well. I’ve also never had shit growing up and am the first to be an attorney in my family. Most people here have been and are well off. That’s what I meant by “fit.” Also, all people here are married, have spouses, etc. here I am “much younger,” living the single life and still trying to balance personal with work life.

Given that last part - do they not want to socialize with you or do they just not want to socialize much, period? They may not have any problem with you, they just may not actually socialize much outside of work. Also, can you explain what you mean by feeling singled out at social events and breaks?

Keep in mind that if they’re older and if they’ve worked at that firm for a while, they have a whole set of relationships already and it may just take a while to develop your own relationships with everyone. A month isn’t very long so I wouldn’t worry about it yet.

[Anonymous User]

Just don’t want to socialize as much. I’m usually in the office alone during afternoon happy hour. Not getting asked out even if the whole group goes, at times. The environment is small enough to notice if one is left out. Same thing happens for lunch when not everyone, including the partner is going. I like the office and people, but I come to discover at times practically everyone has already left without inviting me, only to later discover the whole group walking back in together. I don’t think it’s really done intentionally but eh who knows. I kind of feel lonely. This is a culture where it’s very grouped and small enough to feel singled out, so you see what I mean. Only 4 to 5 attorneys present in the office in any given day, excluding partner. I do get asked out but that’s very rare and feels like when everyone is present there and going and the partner is going too. But, when the associates go, I’m in the dark 99.9% of the time. Granted they don’t go to lunch or happy hour everyday and I’ve only been there for such a little time to really know what’s going on. So, I think I’m just being irrational although my intuition is going berserk. Lol.

I’ve just reached a little under a month line, so it will take some time to learn the culture,etc. cliques do form early and being the new one in takes time adjusting to, from what I gather.

I guess I shouldn’t look to much into it, right? I am happy and the people here are nice and friendly overall, and again I don’t think this is intentional. I just hope they don’t secretly dislike me or want to get rid of me. Too early to tell if there is animosity developing. Even if so, I should not take it personally and focus on my work, which is what I’m there to do anyways, like others said.

Also, thanks a bunch for the advice!!

[nixy]

I think if you can avoid feeling self-conscious about it (easier said than done, I know), it's probably much less intentional on their part than it feels.

You could also try rounding people up to go to lunch/happy hour/whatever one day so that they know you want to go? Or even when they come back in, ask them where they went, and say something like "I'd love to go along next time." They may just need to be nudged.

[Anonymous User]

Day-to-day, I like the people in the office I work in, but I wouldn't trust them to have my back. There is so much backstabbing and cc'ing of the top brass over petty issues (I work for a small-ish state agency).

A lot of it stems from my difficult relationship with my direct supervisor. I think she just hates conflict, which leads to her only giving me positive feedback in person, but then turning around and throwing me under the bus when the chairman or chief executive of the agency has an issue. It also means my mistakes go uncorrected until I get a "WHY DO YOU KEEP DOING THIS!?!?" call or email. It's extremely frustrating.

Nothing is ever handled in a productive way. If I'm doing something wrong, tell me right away and I'll fix it. Don't wait for it to happen 15 times then explode at me. It's not a good environment for an attorney who is straight out of law school. People quit all the time, and I am sprinting out the door when my two year commitment is up.

[papermateflair]

OP, it's been a month. Give it time - my first month as a lateral I thought everyone was going to lunch all the time without me, when it turned out that half of those people didn't want to be going to lunch at all and were being forced to go by the partner they work for. Invite a couple of people you're friendly with to go grab something every once and a while, and see if they reciprocate, if you want a lunch buddy. I really feel like you need 6 months to a year to be fully integrated into a firm (including socially!). These lunch walks could be when people do all their gossiping, and they may not know if they can trust you. Or you may realize that there are 4 people who are tight who always go to lunch together (two associates I work with always go to lunch together, never with anyone else, but only on days they play racketball before work in the morning and didn't pack a lunch - them not inviting me to lunch isn't about me or them not liking me!) but ALWAYS leave everyone else out. Just be friendly and trustworthy and give it time.

[Anonymous User]

Law firms are similar to grade schools. Most people are in some form of clique, and management observes and plays to the strengths of the cliques. At our firm, we have a group of really outgoing folks. They’re always together, they’re at every social event, and they’ll probably all make partner. Then there’s the folks who mostly keep to themselves. Half of them have one foot out the door, most of them are quiet and every now and I see some of them standing in an office whispering. The rest of us are somewhere in between and will probably go grab lunch with you if we’re not slammed.