Biglaw Dallas - Non-Equity Partner - Exec Comp - AMA! Forum

[Anonymous User]

I originally joined this forum way back in 2007 when I was applying for law school. I came back for old time's sake and noticed the site has grown so much. I wanted to pay back the advice I received way back when by answering any questions that anyone may have on biglaw, working in Dallas or in executive compensation, making non-equity partner, etc. I think that's a solid combination of niches for which there isn't a ton of information on here.

Not your practice, but thoughts on the best litigation firms around town, and pros/cons of going into litigation vs corp in most Dallas firms? I know you mentioned the rates being lower and more billing required for junior partners earlier in the thread.

[Anonymous User]

Thanks for doing this. I'm an LLM (non NYU/GULC) and it seems like a lot of the NYU/GULC LLMs are very dismissive of ECB. I don't understand why as my executive comp/benefits class was my favorite class in law school and LLM. My question is, does working in M&A/International Tax at Big4 preclude me from making a transition to ECB after a few years if for whatever reason I decide I don't like the Big4/want to try something different? Since I took my exec comp/benefits class, I've been torn between ECB at BigLaw/MidLaw or M&A/Int. Tax at Big4. Ultimately I went with Big4 and now I'm wondering if I'm pigeon-holed.

For some reason, the vast majority of people who go and get an LLM only have an interest in doing tax. We've brought in people with LLMs who worked in both tax and ECB for a while and they always end up picking tax. I think it's just the way some tax folks are wired. ECB dabbles in the tax code (e.g., Section 83, 409A, 280G and formerly 162(m)), but if you're interested in everything else, you have to do tax. ECB is more a blend of tax, securities and corporate practice areas plus ERISA. You're basically half corporate attorney, half tax attorney. As far as technical expertise, we learn a broader variety of rules than tax attorneys but we're also not quite as technical.

To answer your question, I don't think doing M&A/international tax at the Big 4 would preclude you from working in ECB in the future. But you'll probably have a harder time finding an ECB job. Firms will want to bring you in as a tax attorney, so you'll have to convince them and you'll also have to convince the ECB attorneys that you're worth the investment. When we hire laterals, we always weigh heavily on ECB experience. You wouldn't have that but, for what it's worth, we have hired MACM attorneys who have become ECB associates. They get a little bit of a longer runway to learn the ropes given the lack of experience. The fact that you took relevant classes in law school and LLM would definitely help your case, so I would point that out whenever you can.

[Anonymous User]

I originally joined this forum way back in 2007 when I was applying for law school. I came back for old time's sake and noticed the site has grown so much. I wanted to pay back the advice I received way back when by answering any questions that anyone may have on biglaw, working in Dallas or in executive compensation, making non-equity partner, etc. I think that's a solid combination of niches for which there isn't a ton of information on here.

Not your practice, but thoughts on the best litigation firms around town, and pros/cons of going into litigation vs corp in most Dallas firms? I know you mentioned the rates being lower and more billing required for junior partners earlier in the thread.

Sorry, I am pretty ignorant on litigation practices in town. I decided back in 1L that I never wanted to do litigation, so I really don't even know many of the litigation folks in my firm other than seeing them at firm functions. With that said, I know that the transactional groups are a lot stronger at my firm and probably in Dallas biglaw in general. As a result, I think you're going to find more work and easier lateral opportunities in a transactional group. I know Susman used to have an office in Dallas but I think it closed a couple of years ago. I think Weil had a strong litigation practice (maybe they still do), but a lot of their partners bolted to Sidley a few years ago, so maybe Sidley has a strong practice now. That is the extent of my knowledge. That's probably a crappy response, but it's all I can offer, so apologies.

[Anonymous User]

Thanks so much for doing this. I am currently in transactional tax, but I am thinking of moving into exec comp. How are the exit opportunities compared to transactional tax?

My goal is to move in house ASAP. I have fairly substantive pre-law experience in federal income tax, which should be valuable to in house tax roles, but because of a variety of issues, I am having doubts as to whether I can stick it out for 2-3 years in tax before I can move in house in tax.

The exit opportunities for exec comp (ECB) are much better compared to tax, but obviously not as great as something like corporate/M&A (aka MACM). I think one of the primary reasons for this, is after the MACM folks, ECB attorneys get the most face-time with clients. I am on the phone with the CEO, CFO, GC, HR director, etc. at clients every single day. We work with them year-round on securities filings (e.g., proxy, 10-K, 10-Qs, 8-Ks, Form 4s, etc.) and day-to-day comp and benefits work (e.g., employment agreements, equity awards, bonuses, severance, 401(k), etc.). And, for the most part, interactions are very pleasant as we're mostly helping people get paid. You'll also get significant exposure to the client on transactions and IPOs, which are the primary focus of my practice. Hence, I think it is very easy for an ECB attorney to sell their skillset to an in-house company. We are a niche, but our experience is a lot more relevant to an in-house role than that of a tax attorney (unless, of course, the company is looking for a tax specialist).

Hopefully that helps but let me know if you have any follow up questions.

Thanks! how soon do exec comp attorneys typically go in house, assuming they do not mind taking the pay cut? I'm personally not sensitive about compensation, but would like to make at least 6 figures (I live in a very expensive CoL city).

[Anonymous User]

Thanks for doing this. I'm an LLM (non NYU/GULC) and it seems like a lot of the NYU/GULC LLMs are very dismissive of ECB. I don't understand why as my executive comp/benefits class was my favorite class in law school and LLM. My question is, does working in M&A/International Tax at Big4 preclude me from making a transition to ECB after a few years if for whatever reason I decide I don't like the Big4/want to try something different? Since I took my exec comp/benefits class, I've been torn between ECB at BigLaw/MidLaw or M&A/Int. Tax at Big4. Ultimately I went with Big4 and now I'm wondering if I'm pigeon-holed.

For some reason, the vast majority of people who go and get an LLM only have an interest in doing tax. We've brought in people with LLMs who worked in both tax and ECB for a while and they always end up picking tax. I think it's just the way some tax folks are wired. ECB dabbles in the tax code (e.g., Section 83, 409A, 280G and formerly 162(m)), but if you're interested in everything else, you have to do tax. ECB is more a blend of tax, securities and corporate practice areas plus ERISA. You're basically half corporate attorney, half tax attorney. As far as technical expertise, we learn a broader variety of rules than tax attorneys but we're also not quite as technical.

To answer your question, I don't think doing M&A/international tax at the Big 4 would preclude you from working in ECB in the future. But you'll probably have a harder time finding an ECB job. Firms will want to bring you in as a tax attorney, so you'll have to convince them and you'll also have to convince the ECB attorneys that you're worth the investment. When we hire laterals, we always weigh heavily on ECB experience. You wouldn't have that but, for what it's worth, we have hired MACM attorneys who have become ECB associates. They get a little bit of a longer runway to learn the ropes given the lack of experience. The fact that you took relevant classes in law school and LLM would definitely help your case, so I would point that out whenever you can.

Appreciate this effort to give back! I am actually very interested in ECB and I am trying to decide between UF/GT/NW right now. I am a 3L and I'll be beginning my LLM in the fall. I'd like to practice in Austin,Dallas or Houston upon completion of the program. Do you have any advice for me as I begin my program and heading into job search for the fall? Essentially should I reach out to employers as soon as I begin the program or should I wait until my 1st semester grades come out?

[Anonymous User]

What types of business development activities have you found to be the most useful? My firm is always having us write alerts etc. about new developments under the guise of business development, but it honestly seems like the best business development opportunities are within the firm, and for exec comp at least, it would be better to spend time having lunch with the corporate transaction teams or the SEC folks.

[Anonymous User]

Thanks for doing this. As a senior associate, this is very helpful. On a personal note, if you care to share, how are your prospects for equity? Is your firm the type that makes you go equity or leave, and, if so, how are you handling this and what time frame are you shooting for/being given? Thanks again, very insightful (from a 2009 TLSer who happened to check this randomly but is very thankful for this thread).

[Anonymous User]

Thanks for doing this. I'm an LLM (non NYU/GULC) and it seems like a lot of the NYU/GULC LLMs are very dismissive of ECB. I don't understand why as my executive comp/benefits class was my favorite class in law school and LLM. My question is, does working in M&A/International Tax at Big4 preclude me from making a transition to ECB after a few years if for whatever reason I decide I don't like the Big4/want to try something different? Since I took my exec comp/benefits class, I've been torn between ECB at BigLaw/MidLaw or M&A/Int. Tax at Big4. Ultimately I went with Big4 and now I'm wondering if I'm pigeon-holed.

For some reason, the vast majority of people who go and get an LLM only have an interest in doing tax. We've brought in people with LLMs who worked in both tax and ECB for a while and they always end up picking tax. I think it's just the way some tax folks are wired. ECB dabbles in the tax code (e.g., Section 83, 409A, 280G and formerly 162(m)), but if you're interested in everything else, you have to do tax. ECB is more a blend of tax, securities and corporate practice areas plus ERISA. You're basically half corporate attorney, half tax attorney. As far as technical expertise, we learn a broader variety of rules than tax attorneys but we're also not quite as technical.

To answer your question, I don't think doing M&A/international tax at the Big 4 would preclude you from working in ECB in the future. But you'll probably have a harder time finding an ECB job. Firms will want to bring you in as a tax attorney, so you'll have to convince them and you'll also have to convince the ECB attorneys that you're worth the investment. When we hire laterals, we always weigh heavily on ECB experience. You wouldn't have that but, for what it's worth, we have hired MACM attorneys who have become ECB associates. They get a little bit of a longer runway to learn the ropes given the lack of experience. The fact that you took relevant classes in law school and LLM would definitely help your case, so I would point that out whenever you can.

Appreciate this effort to give back! I am actually very interested in ECB and I am trying to decide between UF/GT/NW right now. I am a 3L and I'll be beginning my LLM in the fall. I'd like to practice in Austin,Dallas or Houston upon completion of the program. Do you have any advice for me as I begin my program and heading into job search for the fall? Essentially should I reach out to employers as soon as I begin the program or should I wait until my 1st semester grades come out?

OP here, sorry for the delay. I think we started getting resumes from people during the Fall when they started their program. I would definitely be proactive about it and reach out before December. You could interview on winter break. Good luck!

[Anonymous User]

What types of business development activities have you found to be the most useful? My firm is always having us write alerts etc. about new developments under the guise of business development, but it honestly seems like the best business development opportunities are within the firm, and for exec comp at least, it would be better to spend time having lunch with the corporate transaction teams or the SEC folks.

OP here, sorry for the delay. I think the alerts are pretty worthless to be honest and our firm simply doesn't believe in writing them, which is great. I think you're spot on when you say that it's better to spend time with the corporate/capital markets folks. We're primarily a service group, so those in-firm guys are your clients. So whatever you can do to spend time with them and get to know them is important. In-firm CLEs are a great idea to get exposure to them as well. Other than that, we do get some external speaking opportunities so I would seek those out and volunteer. It helps raise your profile outside of the firm and can lead to new clients, or more work from existing clients.

[Anonymous User]

Thanks for doing this. As a senior associate, this is very helpful. On a personal note, if you care to share, how are your prospects for equity? Is your firm the type that makes you go equity or leave, and, if so, how are you handling this and what time frame are you shooting for/being given? Thanks again, very insightful (from a 2009 TLSer who happened to check this randomly but is very thankful for this thread).

OP here, sorry for the delay. I think my prospects are very good. The unfortunate part of our practice is that we are small and niche. Hence, it's especially difficult to make partner. From what I've been told, I am knocking at the door but the business case just isn't quite there right now. We just made a partner (first new partner in nearly a decade) and have some older partners that are soon to retire. Given those dynamics, I think I am looking at a 3-5 year time frame before I make equity partner. My mentors have backed that up as well. In any event, I have been told that I will be the next partner made at the firm in my practice.

On your other question, my firm is not an up or out firm. We have many attorneys who are older than me who are still associates or have been non-equity partner for years. I've only seen one person get let go the entire time I've been here (and that was for cause), so I feel like we have the best job security in the firm. Even if I don't make equity partner, I know I could stick around as non-equity partner for as long as I want.