Carving out personal time as Biglaw junior - average/possible?!?! Forum

[Anonymous User]

This may turn into a bit of a rant, so apologies in advance.

Currently a second year in NYC, V50ish transactional. I think my life is pretty average for biglaw - work enough longish hours, and when I'm not busy, just make sure I'm available by randomly checking emails and stuff during the evenings. It's not enough that I would say I'm miserable or anything, but the pressure of work is enough that I always feel like I can't go OUT-out during the week, and have to save part of my brain at night just in case something might blow up from work.

In contrast, I have a classmate from law school who is in the litigation department at a V5 who seems to be really living the life. During my downtime, I would sometimes check Instagram, and he'd either be partying or drinking or off on vacation somewhere. The reason I'm posting is because I just saw that he has gone to Coachella this week when I know that he was JUST off partying in Miami like a month or two ago. I know that it's kind of juvenile to compare myself with other people (especially based off Instagram/social media), but is this totally doable/possible at most firms??? Just given the culture and workstream at my firm, I'm just kind of amazed that someone this junior can seem to take this much time off work... Can I get some perspective??? (if this is doable at most firms, would def not mind attempting a lateral move!!!)

[Anonymous User]

I can't speak to other (corporate) practices, but in lit it can be doable for a junior to get all their work done from anywhere on the planet and for no partners to notice. You might not see this guy's mornings in Miami where he is at a desk in a hotel churning through doc review or drafting deposition outlines. So I wouldn't assume he is taking all of that time "off work."

To your larger question about carving personal time, I also struggle with getting a feeling of having time that is "mine" during the work week - but it varies tremendously by who I'm working with. There are senior associates/partners who are very good about leading off every email sent after, like, 3:00 PM with a "Hi ABC, Tomorrow morning, could you do XYZ?" So I reply "Sure" and then don't look at it again that night. For those who don't, but for things that don't appear to be fire drills, I've gotten better about trying to claim my time a bit: "Sure, I will look into that first thing in the morning unless it's pressing (please let me know if so)." You can some credibility when you are occasionally available to tackle a needs-to-be-done-now project at night, so that same partner knows your response probably means something about your plans. I work with folks who are generally good about this.

Those quick email responses can be a little annoying - to be tethered to work email while trying to enjoy my evening - but they're a million times better than blowing up my plans for work at the drop of a hat.

[Anonymous User]

I can't speak to other (corporate) practices, but in lit it can be doable for a junior to get all their work done from anywhere on the planet and for no partners to notice. You might not see this guy's mornings in Miami where he is at a desk in a hotel churning through doc review or drafting deposition outlines. So I wouldn't assume he is taking all of that time "off work."

To your larger question about carving personal time, I also struggle with getting a feeling of having time that is "mine" during the work week - but it varies tremendously by who I'm working with. There are senior associates/partners who are very good about leading off every email sent after, like, 3:00 PM with a "Hi ABC, Tomorrow morning, could you do XYZ?" So I reply "Sure" and then don't look at it again that night. For those who don't, but for things that don't appear to be fire drills, I've gotten better about trying to claim my time a bit: "Sure, I will look into that first thing in the morning unless it's pressing (please let me know if so)." You can some credibility when you are occasionally available to tackle a needs-to-be-done-now project at night, so that same partner knows your response probably means something about your plans. I work with folks who are generally good about this.

Those quick email responses can be a little annoying - to be tethered to work email while trying to enjoy my evening - but they're a million times better than blowing up my plans for work at the drop of a hat.

OP here. Thank you for your response. This actually makes me feel a little better/sane. I think I still have that junior neurosis left in me where I feel that every time I get an email, habit tells me that it needs to be answered RIGHT THIS SECOND. I think seeing other juniors (my classmate being a very extreme example) just out and about made me feel that either I'm doing something wrong or that I might not be right for big law. I'm still a bit apprehensive about saying "I will do it first thing in the morning" (old habits die hard), but I will def keep this in mind...

[ghostoftraynor]

Your life will be a lot better if you get over that mental hurdle. Most things at night or on the weekend do not need to be answered immediately. Some things definitely do, but those types of things you almost certainly will know about ahead of time.

Nobody is going to fault you because you went out to dinner with some friends when there was no pressing deadline, so weren't able to answer a random question at 7:30 immediately.

[okaygo]

I definitely echo the above posters. I'm still a junior myself, but I have definitely learned that, short of urgent deadlines, my job comes second to my personal life. I like going to music festivals, and go on semi-regular vacations. I think the easiest way to do this is to build up a lot of credit in your teams so that they know you're generally available/happy to help out on last minute or fire drill assignments. That way when you really do draw boundaries or take a week or so off, people don't really trip. I also think what's been key for me is to not assign myself deadlines. If someone emails me to ask if I can look into/draft/assist with something I say that I can. But only if it's seemingly urgent do I (i) tell them when I'll have it by or (ii) ask them when they need it by.

But, I can only do this because I've already built a solid reputation for availability and responsiveness on my team, and am also well integrated into most of my cases such that I can use my judgment as to whether or not something is actually an urgent task. I get very good reviews on my responsiveness/availability from seniors and partners, but YMMV on this strategy.

[JHP]

This may turn into a bit of a rant, so apologies in advance.

Currently a second year in NYC, V50ish transactional. I think my life is pretty average for biglaw - work enough longish hours, and when I'm not busy, just make sure I'm available by randomly checking emails and stuff during the evenings. It's not enough that I would say I'm miserable or anything, but the pressure of work is enough that I always feel like I can't go OUT-out during the week, and have to save part of my brain at night just in case something might blow up from work.

From my personal experience, I can't draw distinctions between my corporate v. lit comrades, as I've seen people on both sides be either completely underwater or partying back to back (or at least leaving at 5 pm consistently). However, personally, I am completely in the same boat as you--I literally stared at my laptop from like 6pm - 10pm the other night (after working the entire weekend) ready to jump in case an e-mail came in for a project that's blowing up this week where everything is a fire drill (partially by nature of the project, partially by nature of the partner micro-managing it). I also am not *miserable*, but the constant refreshing of my e-mail when I'm with family, not being able to make fulsome plans to just go out and relax on the weekends, etc. is starting to take a toll. It has been particularly tough with the project I'm on where I know I'll be doing at least some work on the weekend, but because I am a junior, my work starts whenever the seniors/partners are done with their part of the job and expect me to be instantly available online to start my part of the work, which is unpredictable.

[jkpolk]

It also helps to have some aversion to formality/rules/planning.

There is plenty of down time to exploit for fun (especially if you live in NYC), you just have to roll with it (e.g. be ok going to a show at random times spur of the moment (and being open to the idea of doing work at midnight if something comes up) instead of pinning your hopes and dreams to one fixed time slot and being broken when you can't go). Another tip/example, it's easier to take a working vacation if you don't send a group FYI announcing your vacation (as long as you still get your work done while you're out of the office - please dont fuck over some poor midlevel because you wanted to improve your Instagram).

YMMV depending on your group, culture, etc. but in my large, typical v50 practice group the above has worked pretty well for years.

[icansortofmath]

Unequivocally yes.

One of the investment banks I interned at literally made me clock about 1000 hours over a 10 week period. But I still could find personal time to go to the gym and spend time with my wife (girlfriend at the time). My JD summers were... more summer camps than real work so no personal experience but I can't imagine it being that different.

I think the hardest thing for people is losing control of their schedule and constantly having to cancel. I worked around this in two ways:

Gymed at 6:30 in the morning and go to the office by 8. It's one of the few times I could count on MD not having anything for us. This block of time was a lock even if I was at the office until 6AM. It was a great psychological anchor that allowed me to keep track of time and keep my circadian rhythm in tact.

Scheduled nothing else, literally nothing else. No dentist appointments, no dates, nothing in stone. "Honey, I might be free Sunday, but no promises." If I got time Sunday, "want to go to xxx?" At one point I needed a root canal. I just walked in and got it done right away.

It's really not that bad once you start planning your life around the fact you really don't know if you'll be free at a certain time until like an hour or two before the hour. (MDs and most partners aren't insane enough to always say no if you ask for an hour to finish your dentist appointment before heading back.) When you realize you're free, just look at your to-do list and check off what you can.

[Anonymous User]

I would be very careful following the advice in this thread. Remember that every lawyer you’ve worked with was a junior too and is familiar with what you’re going through and can tell when they’re being managed up.

I’ve definitely had to have talks with juniors along the lines of “I know what you’re doing, and I’m already being selective about when I ask you for something at a shitty hour, so if you’re going to keep “carving out personal time” that’s cool but you’ll have to do it for someone else.”

Which is not to say that you shouldn’t protect your personal time! But there’s an art to it. If the senior lawyers on your deal are working on Saturday night, then your concert plans are definitely fucked. If the senior lawyers are NOT working on Saturday night because they are taking their significant other out or because it is a holiday, then you are also fucked because you are low man and if you think you’re going to preserve your date over someone else’s date, you’re not.

But it is perfectly reasonable to set boundaries for when you don’t do “routine” work - e.g., taking a block of time that you regularly go the gym or to a workout class or a shrink or whatever, and just blocking it on your calendar and not volunteering it as available time. As long as you understand that it will occasionally - but not often - get blown up by work that is not routine.

As you get more senior you have juniors to offload stuff to if you really want to go to that show and you also are closer to the client so develop a better sense of what you can get away with on timeline without screwing shit up. But as a junior, be very very careful about protecting your time. You are basically the lawyer equivalent of a medical resident, and your hours will suck and that is just part of the job.

[merde_happens]

I’ve definitely had to have talks with juniors along the lines of “I know what you’re doing, and I’m already being selective about when I ask you for something at a shitty hour, so if you’re going to keep “carving out personal time” that’s cool but you’ll have to do it for someone else.”

I've had this come up with juniors too, but right now it sounds like OP is making him/herself available literally all of the time and I doubt OP is going to suddenly swing wildly in the opposite direction, nor does it really sound like anyone is advocating for him/her to do that. I think that most of the advice in this thread is pretty reasonable. Like all big law associates, we need to be open to doing shit at unreasonable hours because that's just the job. But it's perfectly fine to (tactfully) ask if something needs to be done that night/that day (if it's a Saturday or something) since juniors often don't have a sense as to the larger deal timeline and a lot of mid-levels/seniors will often fire off emails without deadlines and at whatever time the thought comes to them.

And, OP, if the answer to that question is, "yes," then the unfortunate reality is that you need to get it done regardless of what other plans you may have. As the poster above alluded to, most people aren't dicks and won't make you do unnecessary weekend/evening work. It sucks - we've all been there. But, the answer won't be yes every time, and you'll save yourself some unnecessary stress.

If the senior lawyers on your deal are working on Saturday night, then your concert plans are definitely fucked. If the senior lawyers are NOT working on Saturday night because they are taking their significant other out or because it is a holiday, then you are also fucked because you are low man and if you think you’re going to preserve your date over someone else’s date, you’re not.

Really only true to some extent since juniors are only capable of handling a limited subset of the work. Senior associates get fucked because they are essentially running the deal and are the main point of client contact. If client wants to talk to the senior associate about the latest turn of the merger agreement on a Friday night, then that senior associate has to step out of their date to get on the phone because the client doesn't want to talk to some random junior associate they barely know (and who wouldn't be able to speak competently about the issues in any event).

[LaLiLuLeLo]

What do y’all do if you get an email/assignment when you’re already out drinking and have a few drinks? I usually just say will do tomorrow morning.

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

I would be very careful following the advice in this thread. Remember that every lawyer you’ve worked with was a junior too and is familiar with what you’re going through and can tell when they’re being managed up.

I’ve definitely had to have talks with juniors along the lines of “I know what you’re doing, and I’m already being selective about when I ask you for something at a shitty hour, so if you’re going to keep “carving out personal time” that’s cool but you’ll have to do it for someone else.”

Which is not to say that you shouldn’t protect your personal time! But there’s an art to it. If the senior lawyers on your deal are working on Saturday night, then your concert plans are definitely fucked. If the senior lawyers are NOT working on Saturday night because they are taking their significant other out or because it is a holiday, then you are also fucked because you are low man and if you think you’re going to preserve your date over someone else’s date, you’re not.

But it is perfectly reasonable to set boundaries for when you don’t do “routine” work - e.g., taking a block of time that you regularly go the gym or to a workout class or a shrink or whatever, and just blocking it on your calendar and not volunteering it as available time. As long as you understand that it will occasionally - but not often - get blown up by work that is not routine.

As you get more senior you have juniors to offload stuff to if you really want to go to that show and you also are closer to the client so develop a better sense of what you can get away with on timeline without screwing shit up. But as a junior, be very very careful about protecting your time. You are basically the lawyer equivalent of a medical resident, and your hours will suck and that is just part of the job.

Learning how to avoid the “Fuck your schedule; you’ll work even when I’m not working, because you have dues to pay” seniors like you was one of the best skills I ever learned as a junior.

[merde_happens]

What do y’all do if you get an email/assignment when you’re already out drinking and have a few drinks? I usually just say will do tomorrow morning.

Couple of thoughts here:

If it's a Friday or Saturday night, then I'd say you usually have an idea in advance if you're going to need to work that evening, so you can avoid the element of surprise. However, the one saving grace about a Friday night doc dump (which, btw, screw all of the firms/lawyers that do this intentionally - you're part of why this job sucks) is that generally speaking you can turn it over the weekend, so it usually doesn't screw up Friday night plans. My Friday nights more often than not got crushed by work assignments that were due "end of the week" that I just hadn't had the time to get to earlier in the week. And, like I said, you can plan for that.

If it's a weekday night, then just use common sense. Where are you in your deals? Are you expecting anything to come in that day (e.g. has seller counsel told you that disclosure schedules will be coming that day, or that additional docs will be uploaded to the data room)? Are you on the precipice of a major event (e.g., signing/closing in M&A, launch/pricing/closing in cap mkts, etc.)? Do you have a deliverable due to the client that day that your supervisor is still reviewing (meaning that you'll probably get comments later that day to turn and deliver to the client)? If so, I'd be more cautious about making plans. That said, there have been plenty of times where I've gone out for a couple of drinks, had an assignment come in, gone home, sobered up and done the assignment. Just don't get blackout drunk on a Wednesday and you should be fine.

[abiglawyer]

Learning how to avoid the “Fuck your schedule; you’ll work even when I’m not working, because you have dues to pay” seniors like you was one of the best skills I ever learned as a junior.

Credited. I've gotten talks like the anon mentions; the only takeaway for me was that the senior associate in question was an asshole.

[ghostoftraynor]

I would be very careful following the advice in this thread. Remember that every lawyer you’ve worked with was a junior too and is familiar with what you’re going through and can tell when they’re being managed up.

I’ve definitely had to have talks with juniors along the lines of “I know what you’re doing, and I’m already being selective about when I ask you for something at a shitty hour, so if you’re going to keep “carving out personal time” that’s cool but you’ll have to do it for someone else.”

Which is not to say that you shouldn’t protect your personal time! But there’s an art to it. If the senior lawyers on your deal are working on Saturday night, then your concert plans are definitely fucked. If the senior lawyers are NOT working on Saturday night because they are taking their significant other out or because it is a holiday, then you are also fucked because you are low man and if you think you’re going to preserve your date over someone else’s date, you’re not.

But it is perfectly reasonable to set boundaries for when you don’t do “routine” work - e.g., taking a block of time that you regularly go the gym or to a workout class or a shrink or whatever, and just blocking it on your calendar and not volunteering it as available time. As long as you understand that it will occasionally - but not often - get blown up by work that is not routine.

As you get more senior you have juniors to offload stuff to if you really want to go to that show and you also are closer to the client so develop a better sense of what you can get away with on timeline without screwing shit up. But as a junior, be very very careful about protecting your time. You are basically the lawyer equivalent of a medical resident, and your hours will suck and that is just part of the job.

I'll join the posters above responding to this.

I think we need to be clear what people are recommending (at least me and how I interpret others). Yes, as a junior you need to work hard. Yes, you need to be willing to cancel plans.

The point is, unlike what OP describes, you don't need to glue yourself to a screen. If something is mission critical, I stay at home/office by a computer. You almost always know when those instances are, and yea, you should be ready to respond immediately in those scenarios.

Other times, you know you are going to need to respond to things, but nothing is going to demand your full attention. In those scenarios, I often bring my laptop with me (i've done this at dinners, birthday parties, and just club hoping).

In both of the above scenarios, sometimes you are caught off-guard. Something actually "important" comes up and you have to turn asap. I've cancelled plans and got home as soon as possible in those scenarios.

But, much more often, you get an email after hours or on a weekend, and it does not need to be answered right away. That is extremely common. Learn to wait until the next day (or next couple of days) for that kind of thing.

Also, there is a sliding scale to all of this. If I'm at a wedding, the kind of thing that makes me run up to my hotel room is much more important than the kind of thing that would normally cancel my bar hoping plans.

It's all some part experience, but a lot of this is just common sense. People won't respect any reasonable personal boundaries if you dont respect yours yourself. And avoid seniors/partners who look down on you for that--most big law offices are big enough where it's not hard to do.

[Anonymous User]

I think some of this does turn on your firm's culture.

When I was an investment banker, and at my 2L firm, unless you were on vacation or literally in the hospital, you were expected to respond to emails within 1-2 hours, no exceptions. That doesn't mean you have an *answer*, but it does mean you would acknowledge receipt of the email and provide a timeline for when you would be providing one. If you didn't like it, that was fine, but the solution wasn't 'carve out personal time.' It was 'quit.' Which people did. My partner's firm is the same way: They're selective in hiring, work on high profile cases, get compensated very well, but are expected to be available round the clock.

But on the other hand, this isn't every firm's culture---I have friends who would never accept the experience I described above for any amount of money and have successful legal careers at quality law firms. If other people at your firm seem to find a way to balance their work and their personal lives and you're the exception, the solutions others have described in this thread make total sense to me.

[Anonymous User]

What do y’all do if you get an email/assignment when you’re already out drinking and have a few drinks? I usually just say will do tomorrow morning.

I think some of this does turn on your firm's culture.

When I was an investment banker, and at my 2L firm, unless you were on vacation or literally in the hospital, you were expected to respond to emails within 1-2 hours, no exceptions. That doesn't mean you have an *answer*, but it does mean you would acknowledge receipt of the email and provide a timeline for when you would be providing one. If you didn't like it, that was fine, but the solution wasn't 'carve out personal time.' It was 'quit.' Which people did. My partner's firm is the same way: They're selective in hiring, work on high profile cases, get compensated very well, but are expected to be available round the clock.

But on the other hand, this isn't every firm's culture---I have friends who would never accept the experience I described above for any amount of money and have successful legal careers at quality law firms. If other people at your firm seem to find a way to balance their work and their personal lives and you're the exception, the solutions others have described in this thread make total sense to me.

My firm is only a bit like quoted anon's--the general rule of thumb for us seems to be that, before 7:30 pm, if you have an email that is along the line of "Hey can you do XYZ?" and no specified "by tonight" language, then you should do your best to respond with at least a "Sure, I'll make sure to get to it tomorrow morning if that works?" Of course, some partners or more senior associates may expect a "Yes, right away, I'll do it right now" kind of response, but I find that to be more on the rare end and only ever widely expected when we're in the heart of a deal and any reasonable junior should have known that they would be needed into the evening that week. We are not the "no exceptions" "you need to be on vacation or in the hospital". If you send/receive an e-mail after 7:30 pm, the email, I think, is generally viewed as in the realm of dwindling likelihood of response, and no one is really shocked or miffed if they don't get responded to until the morning.

[Anonymous User]

I would be very careful following the advice in this thread. Remember that every lawyer you’ve worked with was a junior too and is familiar with what you’re going through and can tell when they’re being managed up.

I’ve definitely had to have talks with juniors along the lines of “I know what you’re doing, and I’m already being selective about when I ask you for something at a shitty hour, so if you’re going to keep “carving out personal time” that’s cool but you’ll have to do it for someone else.”

Which is not to say that you shouldn’t protect your personal time! But there’s an art to it. If the senior lawyers on your deal are working on Saturday night, then your concert plans are definitely fucked. If the senior lawyers are NOT working on Saturday night because they are taking their significant other out or because it is a holiday, then you are also fucked because you are low man and if you think you’re going to preserve your date over someone else’s date, you’re not.

But it is perfectly reasonable to set boundaries for when you don’t do “routine” work - e.g., taking a block of time that you regularly go the gym or to a workout class or a shrink or whatever, and just blocking it on your calendar and not volunteering it as available time. As long as you understand that it will occasionally - but not often - get blown up by work that is not routine.

As you get more senior you have juniors to offload stuff to if you really want to go to that show and you also are closer to the client so develop a better sense of what you can get away with on timeline without screwing shit up. But as a junior, be very very careful about protecting your time. You are basically the lawyer equivalent of a medical resident, and your hours will suck and that is just part of the job.

Learning how to avoid the “Fuck your schedule; you’ll work even when I’m not working, because you have dues to pay” seniors like you was one of the best skills I ever learned as a junior.

+2. So true. The anon posting this sounds like a miserable person to work for no matter how hard and diligently you may be willing to work. It's a stain on Biglaw, and it's mostly unnecessary. It's also just false that "that's the job" or "this is what you signed up for." Talk about lazy, self-inflated hazing-ritual BS mentalities...

[LaLiLuLeLo]

There are certainly some people that don’t “get” it, but agree that the “jump when I say” mentality of some people is toxic as hell. It’s rarely super urgent and if it is and you know it’s coming you need to communicate that with those who work with you. There’s a big difference between the junior who wants to dip out for a couple hours the day before signing and the junior who is a normal person with normal person plans who doesn’t want to drop everything for something that can wait until tomorrow.

[ghostoftraynor]

I think some of this does turn on your firm's culture.

When I was an investment banker, and at my 2L firm, unless you were on vacation or literally in the hospital, you were expected to respond to emails within 1-2 hours, no exceptions. That doesn't mean you have an *answer*, but it does mean you would acknowledge receipt of the email and provide a timeline for when you would be providing one. If you didn't like it, that was fine, but the solution wasn't 'carve out personal time.' It was 'quit.' Which people did. My partner's firm is the same way: They're selective in hiring, work on high profile cases, get compensated very well, but are expected to be available round the clock.

But on the other hand, this isn't every firm's culture---I have friends who would never accept the experience I described above for any amount of money and have successful legal careers at quality law firms. If other people at your firm seem to find a way to balance their work and their personal lives and you're the exception, the solutions others have described in this thread make total sense to me.

Fair point on this being culture dependent. Still hard for me to imagine OP's firm is as demanding as OP seems to think it is.

[MaxMcMann]

I think some of this does turn on your firm's culture.

When I was an investment banker, and at my 2L firm, unless you were on vacation or literally in the hospital, you were expected to respond to emails within 1-2 hours, no exceptions. That doesn't mean you have an *answer*, but it does mean you would acknowledge receipt of the email and provide a timeline for when you would be providing one. If you didn't like it, that was fine, but the solution wasn't 'carve out personal time.' It was 'quit.' Which people did. My partner's firm is the same way: They're selective in hiring, work on high profile cases, get compensated very well, but are expected to be available round the clock.

But on the other hand, this isn't every firm's culture---I have friends who would never accept the experience I described above for any amount of money and have successful legal careers at quality law firms. If other people at your firm seem to find a way to balance their work and their personal lives and you're the exception, the solutions others have described in this thread make total sense to me.

Here's something that (as a student) bothers me - how am I expected to respond to a 4am email right away if I'm sleeping?

I'm a heavy sleeper with one of those old school metal alarms to wake me up. A phone call would do the job to, but a little email blip wouldn't. What's the solution, set your emails to "Alarm" on iphone? Seems super annoying the rest of the day...

[LaLiLuLeLo]

I think some of this does turn on your firm's culture.

When I was an investment banker, and at my 2L firm, unless you were on vacation or literally in the hospital, you were expected to respond to emails within 1-2 hours, no exceptions. That doesn't mean you have an *answer*, but it does mean you would acknowledge receipt of the email and provide a timeline for when you would be providing one. If you didn't like it, that was fine, but the solution wasn't 'carve out personal time.' It was 'quit.' Which people did. My partner's firm is the same way: They're selective in hiring, work on high profile cases, get compensated very well, but are expected to be available round the clock.

But on the other hand, this isn't every firm's culture---I have friends who would never accept the experience I described above for any amount of money and have successful legal careers at quality law firms. If other people at your firm seem to find a way to balance their work and their personal lives and you're the exception, the solutions others have described in this thread make total sense to me.

Here's something that (as a student) bothers me - how am I expected to respond to a 4am email right away if I'm sleeping?

I'm a heavy sleeper with one of those old school metal alarms to wake me up. A phone call would do the job to, but a little email blip wouldn't. What's the solution, set your emails to "Alarm" on iphone? Seems super annoying the rest of the day...

You aren’t unless you have warning it’s expected (e.g. securities filings). I actually set my phone for do not disturb overnight so I can sleep well (most emails are daily BS emails that get sent out at 5 am)

[abiglawyer]

Here's something that (as a student) bothers me - how am I expected to respond to a 4am email right away if I'm sleeping?

I'm a heavy sleeper with one of those old school metal alarms to wake me up. A phone call would do the job to, but a little email blip wouldn't. What's the solution, set your emails to "Alarm" on iphone? Seems super annoying the rest of the day...

The answer, of course, is that no sane partner would expect you to answer an out-of-the-blue 4 a.m. email. It would also benefit you to cultivate the attitude that it would be unreasonable for a senior attorney to expect that level of responsiveness of you--fair or not, setting boundaries is often the associate's responsibility.

[MaxMcMann]

Here's something that (as a student) bothers me - how am I expected to respond to a 4am email right away if I'm sleeping?

I'm a heavy sleeper with one of those old school metal alarms to wake me up. A phone call would do the job to, but a little email blip wouldn't. What's the solution, set your emails to "Alarm" on iphone? Seems super annoying the rest of the day...

The answer, of course, is that no sane partner would expect you to answer an out-of-the-blue 4 a.m. email. It would also benefit you to cultivate the attitude that it would be unreasonable for a senior attorney to expect that level of responsiveness of you--fair or not, setting boundaries is often the associate's responsibility.

Look at the V10 partner thread. I asked him about boundary setting and he said:

Maybe I'm old school but I've never said "no" to anybody and I would be peeved if an associate told me flat out "no". "I can't do this right this moment but I will free up at [x] and can work on it then" is an acceptable answer, but don't use it too much. The partners don't ever say "no" to clients and if an associate wants to make it, then the reality is that they need to learn to be available. At my firm an associate who declines assignments won't get a bad review for it as long as they're meeting hours and staying busy, but don't expect the partner you've turned down to be in your corner. Which means that if you are slammed, then say "yes" to the rainmakers and figure out who isn't an important partner so you can say no to them.

I think the whole boundaries thing would be great advice for people who are planning to go in-house, but what if you want to at least take a stab at partnership? No boundaries or is there a more subtle way to go about it? Is the reasonableness of your responsiveness something you get a feel for when you start working?

[patent_guy]

Here's something that (as a student) bothers me - how am I expected to respond to a 4am email right away if I'm sleeping?

I'm a heavy sleeper with one of those old school metal alarms to wake me up. A phone call would do the job to, but a little email blip wouldn't. What's the solution, set your emails to "Alarm" on iphone? Seems super annoying the rest of the day...

The answer, of course, is that no sane partner would expect you to answer an out-of-the-blue 4 a.m. email. It would also benefit you to cultivate the attitude that it would be unreasonable for a senior attorney to expect that level of responsiveness of you--fair or not, setting boundaries is often the associate's responsibility.

Look at the V10 partner thread. I asked him about boundary setting and he said:

Maybe I'm old school but I've never said "no" to anybody and I would be peeved if an associate told me flat out "no". "I can't do this right this moment but I will free up at [x] and can work on it then" is an acceptable answer, but don't use it too much. The partners don't ever say "no" to clients and if an associate wants to make it, then the reality is that they need to learn to be available. At my firm an associate who declines assignments won't get a bad review for it as long as they're meeting hours and staying busy, but don't expect the partner you've turned down to be in your corner. Which means that if you are slammed, then say "yes" to the rainmakers and figure out who isn't an important partner so you can say no to them.

I think the whole boundaries thing would be great advice for people who are planning to go in-house, but what if you want to at least take a stab at partnership? No boundaries or is there a more subtle way to go about it? Is the reasonableness of your responsiveness something you get a feel for when you start working?

You’re jumping around from 4 am emails to normal boundaries.

I think that reasonable boundaries are relative - if you’re gunning for partner, you’re going to more willing to just drop everything and get it done, but if you’re trying to do your time before you head in house you’ll likely push back a little more. I’d also add that I think it’s unreasonable to expect either of these hypothetical associates necessarily are awakened by their 4 am email alert and respond immediately.

Tl;Dr yes you get a feel for reasonableness but LaLi isn’t pissing away their partnership chances by using do not disturb when they sleep at night.