Am I crazy (for planning to do big law when I don't have to)? Forum

[ivankasta]

I'm currently a 1L at a T6 school and my plan since applying has been to go into Big Law in one of the major markets. Recently, I've been questioning that plan.

I will be fortunate enough to graduate at 25, unmarried with no debt and even $50k or so in savings. I believe that I have the work ethic and discipline to put in a few years in Big Law, but I just wonder if I will regret devoting those years in my mid-twenties to such long and stressful hours.

My dad and uncle run a small (5 attorney) firm in a mid-sized city that does well. I've worked there every summer of undergrad and it's a great laid-back environment where the attorneys work less than 50 hours a week. What drove me to get into a good law school was to have other options. My idealistic undergrad mind thought it would be "cool" to live and work in NYC in my 20s. Now that I'm getting closer to that being a reality, I wonder if it would be a mistake. I could take a year off, live in Brooklyn and work as a bartender. I could go travel. I could just be a fucking bum somewhere. Then after that time, could take my law degree and go work a the family firm.

I was just curious if those who have walked the big law path have any input.

Thanks

[PeanutsNJam]

What are your ambitions? If your goal is to live a low-stress life with the time to enjoy non-expensive things like family, occasional travel, and idk video games, while having a reliable day job until retirement, there's no need to go into biglaw.

If your goal is to make as much money as possible, be rich, and just grit your teeth, obviously biglaw is the answer.

If your goal is to become an "expert" and a high level lawyer in whatever it is you're doing, the appropriate practice group in biglaw is also the right choice. Clerking may also be a good idea. For example, if your family firm does real estate law, going to ~V10~'s real estate practice for 3-4 years before taking a long vacation and switching to your family business will do wonders for your career. You'll get top class training and have the pedigree to rope in more clients than you otherwise could. But this is a "hard work" route, because even after you switch to your family businesses, if you're roping in clients and growing the business, you'll be working as hard as biglaw, if not harder, though you won't have nearly as many bosses, or any at all.

[icansortofmath]

At least do the summers and 2 years. That will open a lot of doors to careers you never thought about.

If nothing else, just having a V10 firm on your resume (and therefore your small practice's bio page), will get you a lot of clients.

That said, I bailed on biglaw to do big4 tax for some of the reasons you mentioned.

[QContinuum]

I would at least do the traditional 2L summer associateship. That way you'll get a firsthand look inside BigLaw (albeit an unrealistically rosy experience compared to actual practice), make a good chunk of change, and have an overall great summer. And aside from giving yourself a bit more information, you'll give yourself a bit more time to decide. I would advise strongly against closing that door now as a 1L. For most folks, the BigLaw boat comes once and done. If you're even the slightest bit unsure, I wouldn't recommend missing that boat. You can always get off the boat at any point - after the summer, after practicing a year, whatever.

[objctnyrhnr]

At least do the summers and 2 years. That will open a lot of doors to careers you never thought about.

If nothing else, just having a V10 firm on your resume (and therefore your small practice's bio page), will get you a lot of clients.

That said, I bailed on biglaw to do big4 tax for some of the reasons you mentioned.

This times a ton. You have your whole life NOT to do biglaw. By contrast, if you don’t hit it right out of the gate, biglaw is tough to line up. The doors it can open for you, relative to your other option, are not even conceivable right now. Do biglaw for at least a bit to get the stamp, then leave if you still want to. It’s really not that bad—the sampling of horror stories is largely self-selecting, IMO.

Also echo the clerkship suggestion.

[lawhopeful100]

One other thing to add. At least for me, part of the stress with big law is because I feel like I need the money from it to pay off loans, save for a down payment on a house etc. I’ve put a decent dent in those goals, and the closer I get the less stressed I am because I know I have the power to try and line up something lower stress but lower pay. This is just to say, the fact that you do not “need” big law might actually be a reason in favor of doing it. You won’t be as stressed as the guy worried that if he gets laid off he’ll never be able to get out of debt.

[dabigchina]

At least do the summers and 2 years. That will open a lot of doors to careers you never thought about.

If nothing else, just having a V10 firm on your resume (and therefore your small practice's bio page), will get you a lot of clients.

That said, I bailed on biglaw to do big4 tax for some of the reasons you mentioned.

I agree that OP should at least give biglaw a shot, given hes got nothing to lose here (except time).

I'm curious what these other fantastic careers are, though.

[deference]

1.) What are your professional ambitions after law school?
2.) Does going to Biglaw help you achieve that goal?

For many law grads, Biglaw is more of a financial decision than a professional one. However, if you don't even have answer for number 1, you are honestly better off using that money (I'm assuming your parents?) and invest in something that would have an immediate tangible return, such as real estate.

[QContinuum]

I'm curious what these other fantastic careers are, though.

I believe folks are referring to the typical exit options: BigFed/AUSA, in-house counsel, midlaw, clerking, even academia.

[icansortofmath]

Biglaw and T6 JD also can lateral to investment banking and consulting.

I know because when I became convinced I didn’t want to do biglaw for life and also knew I needed salary, I searched LinkedIn for former biglaw associates that lateraled to non-legal fields.

A lot of them had to get MBA first (good biglaw/T6 also helps with this) but some went straight to non-legal six figure jobs.

[MillllerTime]

One other thing to add. At least for me, part of the stress with big law is because I feel like I need the money from it to pay off loans, save for a down payment on a house etc. I’ve put a decent dent in those goals, and the closer I get the less stressed I am because I know I have the power to try and line up something lower stress but lower pay. This is just to say, the fact that you do not “need” big law might actually be a reason in favor of doing it. You won’t be as stressed as the guy worried that if he gets laid off he’ll never be able to get out of debt.

100% this. I'm nowhere near financially independent but have paid off all of my loans and now have a couple 100k saved up after a few years of biglaw, and as a result I am much less stressed than I was as a first year. There is a light at the end of the biglaw tunnel for me now, but I actually don't have any plans to leave in the near future and think the job has become borderline cushy because I am not worried about keeping it. I know a few juniors who have been this way from the start (either because they had family money or because they really wanted to work for a non-profit but were doing biglaw just for the name and immediate $$); they treat the job much differently and seem infinitely less stressed. Of course this doesn't work if you want to make partner (or even stay around more than 5 years probably), but that doesn't seem to be a concern here.

Would also echo the other posts about biglaw opening up doors and providing great training / exposure to the most complicated work in respective fields. A few years in biglaw will give you insight to bring back to your family firm that others, even with much more experience, don't have.

[Npret]

I'm currently a 1L at a T6 school and my plan since applying has been to go into Big Law in one of the major markets. Recently, I've been questioning that plan.

I will be fortunate enough to graduate at 25, unmarried with no debt and even $50k or so in savings. I believe that I have the work ethic and discipline to put in a few years in Big Law, but I just wonder if I will regret devoting those years in my mid-twenties to such long and stressful hours.

My dad and uncle run a small (5 attorney) firm in a mid-sized city that does well. I've worked there every summer of undergrad and it's a great laid-back environment where the attorneys work less than 50 hours a week. What drove me to get into a good law school was to have other options. My idealistic undergrad mind thought it would be "cool" to live and work in NYC in my 20s. Now that I'm getting closer to that being a reality, I wonder if it would be a mistake. I could take a year off, live in Brooklyn and work as a bartender. I could go travel. I could just be a fucking bum somewhere. Then after that time, could take my law degree and go work a the family firm.

I was just curious if those who have walked the big law path have any input.

Thanks

You sound like you would be miserable in biglaw. You’re not even sure you want to go straight through law school.
Maybe you should take a year off and reassess?

You definitely don’t need a biglaw job to live in NYC and you will spend a lot of time working and not enjoying the city anyway. It’s easy to do a year or two though if you know you want to go to a job back home.

I think you want more in your life than work and money, so I would stay true to those values. But you don’t have enough information to make a decision on biglaw yet.

I agree that if you do stay in school, which I’m betting you will, do a summer program in NYC and see how you like it.

Right now you have no personal experience so don’t make up your mind before seeing what biglaw can offer you.

[shock259]

I didn't "need" to do biglaw either, but I'm glad I put in my time for a few year. It allowed me to build up my nest egg, jump start my early retirement goals, buy a house, and develop some useful legal skills. I recently moved in house at a true 9-5 and couldn't be happier. Making way less money but it's still enough to retire early, and I am now in a sustainable environment and I can turn my attention to other hobbies and interests of mine.

All that said, from your post, it sounds like you probably aren't going to enjoy NYC biglaw. In my opinion, the people that were most able to make it work had a more determined mindset about it ("This is going to suck for 2 years, but it's worth it) and set realistic goals for themselves ("I'm not going to let this suck my soul for more than 4 years, unless it is dramatically more enjoyable for me than I expect").

[Anonymous User]

Hey OP, I was in your situation - T6, no debt, ~50k savings, but graduated a few years older than you.

As others have mentioned, DEFINITELY do the summer associate position at the very least. You barely work and it's a fun 10 weeks of socializing and getting paid $30K+ and living out your NYC fantasies or whatever. Also, you'll actually have time at night and evenings to do what you want to since no one expects you to be working (but don't go to Cravath or Wachtell etc. if that's what you're looking for)

I'm about a year and a half into big law, and let me tell you, even with luxury of having no debt or financial worries, big law is a grind and pretty stressful. It's been a tough 18 months but I've started taking the advice of some of the other posters in this thread. Once you make it to the point I am at, if you feel the way you do, it's easy to take a less stressful approach to working. If they let me go at the end of the year, I'd still have 2.5 years of big law under the belt and probably could lateral to another firm to, at the very least, stick it out for 6 months there too. I'd recommend grinding your first year and building a good reputation and then taking it a bit easier and seeing what happens.

If you live below your means and are smart, you could end up with a networth of $350k by the time you exit after 2.5 years (what I'm hoping in my case).

[Anonymous User]

OP,

I was in a situation much like yours. T14 grad. Parents are wealthy -- not FU money -- but I started far enough ahead in life where people get angry/jealous/judgy if I share details about it.

I did not need to do big law. I did it anyways and have no regrets. For me, I didn't know what I really wanted until I did big law. Big law gives you exposure (to clients, partners, and attorneys who have done other things successfully in the past) and like others have said, it opens doors that you didn't know you wanted to walk through until seeing them. My old firm had former senators, former state AGs, former US Attorneys, former presidential candidate washouts, F50 board of directors, all of whom were a few doors away from office and who I could ask random questions to.

I'm now an AUSA making crap money but I love my job and I'm crazy thankful that I get do something fulfilling/fun as my job. I didn't even know this job existed during law school. You might not be as clueless as me but I think youre doing yourself a disservice by not keeping your eyes open.

Also, big law isn't that bad when you know you aren't going to stick around long. You can totally be a below average associate at a v10 and fly under the radar for 4 years.

[abiglawyer]

Congrats to many posters ITT on not having to worry about money/employment. Insofar as these are the primary concerns of not only everyone alive now but every human being since the dawn of Homo sapiens sapiens, none of you partake of the human experience in a meaningful sense.

[Wild Card]

Congrats to many posters ITT on not having to worry about money/employment. Insofar as these are the primary concerns of not only everyone alive now but every human being since the dawn of Homo sapiens sapiens, none of you partake of the human experience in a meaningful sense.

"Using a large national data base (the After the JD Study), Sander finds that just 2 percent of students at the top 20 law schools come from the bottom socioeconomic quarter of the population while more than three-quarters come from the richest socioeconomic quartile. Astoundingly, Sander writes
'roughly half the students at these schools come from the top tenth of the SES distribution, while only about one-tenth of the students come from the bottom half.'
. . .
Sander finds that at top 20 law schools, 89 percent of African Americans, and 63 percent of Latinos come from the top socioeconomic half of the population (along with 92 percent of Asian Americans and 93 percent of whites.)"

https://www.chronicle.com/blogs/innovat ... ools/30441

[nixy]

Congrats to many posters ITT on not having to worry about money/employment. Insofar as these are the primary concerns of not only everyone alive now but every human being since the dawn of Homo sapiens sapiens, none of you partake of the human experience in a meaningful sense.

Good thing that’s not the pertinent criterion for answering the OP’s question then.

[Aptitude]

OP,

You should do the summer and give it a go. If it sucks, you can always quit and have your family's law firm to fall back on. It's really a free bet for you. You do the summer associate position, experience, get paid, and then get hired on. If it goes well, you experience something new and get paid well. If you dislike it or it sucks, you can just quit and go back to what you're thinking about doing now.

Nothing to lose in that scenario. You could even use the money to travel since you have no loans and family support.

I worked a year as a bartender at a club in a city known for its nightlife and lifestyle for a few months. I quit, and I think I quit too early. I make much better money now in the legal industry but am far more unhappy. The bartending was great, my social and dating life was much better, I was having far more fun, and enjoying everyday. If I could do it all over again, I'd probably would have moved and done the same at another city. Or traveled and went to music festivals more.

Most people have certain beliefs and wants: they want to make a lot of money, get a nicer house, in a nicer neighborhood, get their children into nice private schools etc. It becomes this unending ladder, and they think the next thing will make them happy.

Instead, a sizeable amount of the population dread going to work, are unhealthy, end-up divorced. Lawyers have high drug abuse/depression rates.

Definitely pursuing the wrong things.

[abiglawyer]

Congrats to many posters ITT on not having to worry about money/employment. Insofar as these are the primary concerns of not only everyone alive now but every human being since the dawn of Homo sapiens sapiens, none of you partake of the human experience in a meaningful sense.

"Using a large national data base (the After the JD Study), Sander finds that just 2 percent of students at the top 20 law schools come from the bottom socioeconomic quarter of the population while more than three-quarters come from the richest socioeconomic quartile. Astoundingly, Sander writes
'roughly half the students at these schools come from the top tenth of the SES distribution, while only about one-tenth of the students come from the bottom half.'
. . .
Sander finds that at top 20 law schools, 89 percent of African Americans, and 63 percent of Latinos come from the top socioeconomic half of the population (along with 92 percent of Asian Americans and 93 percent of whites.)"

https://www.chronicle.com/blogs/innovat ... ools/30441

These numbers are worse than I had assumed, which is saying something.

[LaLiLuLeLo]

I don’t think it’s worth it at all unless biglaw is a stepping stone to something you want to do. If it’s not, then I recommend against pissing away some of the best years of your life doing something that more than likely makes the world a worse place.

[dabigchina]

Biglaw and T6 JD also can lateral to investment banking and consulting.

I know because when I became convinced I didn’t want to do biglaw for life and also knew I needed salary, I searched LinkedIn for former biglaw associates that lateraled to non-legal fields.

A lot of them had to get MBA first (good biglaw/T6 also helps with this) but some went straight to non-legal six figure jobs.

If OP isn't sure he wants to grind away in biglaw, I'm not sure he would be better served grinding away at a bank or a consulting firm, either.

[dabigchina]

I'm curious what these other fantastic careers are, though.

I believe folks are referring to the typical exit options: BigFed/AUSA, in-house counsel, midlaw, clerking, even academia.

Right, but OP's family job already sounds like the kind of job that 98% of biglawyers would love to exit to.

[lavarman84]

As a person in a similar situation, I'm going to give you a different perspective than most in here. I agree that you should do biglaw SAs. Might as well take that $30,000 and the work experience each summer. If you decide that you really want to do biglaw after that, go for it. Personally, I did that, and I realized that I am not passionate about the work biglaw does. Thus, I have no interest in doing biglaw after I finish clerking. I am already financially secure, so I can do what I want. And that's what I plan to do. I plan to follow the path where my passion is. Yes, there's less money, but there's better work-life balance (to some degree) and the sort of work that I want to do.

Basically, OP, don't do biglaw if you don't want to do it. There are a bunch of people on here who will tell you that you have to do it because it'll open up all these doors and make worlds of difference on your resume. Unless you want to go work in-house for a large company or something along those lines, it really won't do that much for you. Go enjoy your life, do what you enjoy, and don't make yourself miserable like the other people buried in debt.

[shock259]

Congrats to many posters ITT on not having to worry about money/employment. Insofar as these are the primary concerns of not only everyone alive now but every human being since the dawn of Homo sapiens sapiens, none of you partake of the human experience in a meaningful sense.

Dying. You're my new favorite poster.