How much does region affect salary? Forum

[Anonymous User]

Hello all, new-ish attorney here.

Basically the title. Reading some of the numbers here are throwing off what I think of as a good salary (as in, I thought I had a good salary before I started reading this forum).

I'm in a southeastern tertiary market working midlaw (~200 attorneys). Billable req is 1800, but 1950 is preferred and is where you start earning a bonus. Base is $105k. I've been seeing on here numbers like $160k for 1950 hours (also at midlaw, not biglaw), but in the big markets like NYC/LA, etc.
Looking at a COL calculator, I would need to make $251,072.56 in NYC to maintain my standard of living.

My question is, do firms vary their salary based on geographic region? At the end of the day, I'm happy with what I make, but if I'm getting shafted, I'd like to know for any future moves.

Thanks!

[FND]

It really depends on the market, and on the firm. A handful of firms pay the same rate regardless of market.

Keep in mind that my knowledge is a little out of date, so take that with a grain of salt

New York typically pays the most, and has the highest billable hours requirement
L.A., S.V., D.C., Boston, Dallas, Houston tend to pay the same, but somewhat better hours
Chicago and Philadelphia pay marginally less than NY for hours are comparable to LA, DC, etc.
Atlanta, Miami, Seattle tend to pay a bit less than Chicago and Philadelphia, for the same or marginally better hours
Minneapolis is paywise a step below that, for the same hours.

After that, it gets messy real fast. There just isn't much biglaw outside of those cities. While you may have McGuireWoods in Richmond, you're mainly talking midlaw or secondary offices of biglaw firms that may not even hire 1st year associates.

Now to answer the more important question: 1800 billable requirement in a tertiary market is reasonable. Some tertiary markets are as low as 1700, but nothing wrong with 1800. Base pay of $105k for a midlaw firm in any market is decent Base pay of $105k in most tertiary markets is decent. My guess is you're working in a regional powerhouse, and relative to your location, you're doing very well for yourself.

[Anonymous User]

I wanted to offer a datapoint. I’m in a tertiary market in the southeast at a regional biglaw firm and as a second year, my salary is 170k with a 1900 billable requirement for bonus.

[Anonymous User]

I wanted to offer a datapoint. I’m in a tertiary market in the southeast at a regional biglaw firm and as a second year, my salary is 170k with a 1900 billable requirement for bonus.

OP here. First, congrats, that's awesome! About how many attorneys in your firm? What practice area are you in?

[Sprinkler]

I wanted to offer a datapoint. I’m in a tertiary market in the southeast at a regional biglaw firm and as a second year, my salary is 170k with a 1900 billable requirement for bonus.

That makes sense for Atlanta. Or perhaps Nashville as a third year.

[tsmcdona]

I wanted to offer a datapoint. I’m in a tertiary market in the southeast at a regional biglaw firm and as a second year, my salary is 170k with a 1900 billable requirement for bonus.

That makes sense for Atlanta. Or perhaps Nashville as a third year.

Is Atlanta tertiary? I always thought it was secondary

[Anonymous User]

I wanted to offer a datapoint. I’m in a tertiary market in the southeast at a regional biglaw firm and as a second year, my salary is 170k with a 1900 billable requirement for bonus.

OP here. First, congrats, that's awesome! About how many attorneys in your firm? What practice area are you in?

I do a mostly healthcare and data privacy. My firm is fairly large (300+) scattered throughout the country.

As for something another poster said, Nashville doesn’t pay 170 for a third year. My colleague recently came over from a prominent Nashville firm and said the pay raise was significant.

[LikelyThrowaway]

It really depends on the market, and on the firm. A handful of firms pay the same rate regardless of market.

Keep in mind that my knowledge is a little out of date, so take that with a grain of salt

New York typically pays the most, and has the highest billable hours requirement
L.A., S.V., D.C., Boston, Dallas, Houston tend to pay the same, but somewhat better hours
Chicago and Philadelphia pay marginally less than NY for hours are comparable to LA, DC, etc.
Atlanta, Miami, Seattle tend to pay a bit less than Chicago and Philadelphia, for the same or marginally better hours
Minneapolis is paywise a step below that, for the same hours.

After that, it gets messy real fast. There just isn't much biglaw outside of those cities. While you may have McGuireWoods in Richmond, you're mainly talking midlaw or secondary offices of biglaw firms that may not even hire 1st year associates.

Now to answer the more important question: 1800 billable requirement in a tertiary market is reasonable. Some tertiary markets are as low as 1700, but nothing wrong with 1800. Base pay of $105k for a midlaw firm in any market is decent Base pay of $105k in most tertiary markets is decent. My guess is you're working in a regional powerhouse, and relative to your location, you're doing very well for yourself.

All the top Chicago firms pay market.

[Anonymous User]

I wanted to offer a datapoint. I’m in a tertiary market in the southeast at a regional biglaw firm and as a second year, my salary is 170k with a 1900 billable requirement for bonus.

OP here. First, congrats, that's awesome! About how many attorneys in your firm? What practice area are you in?

I do a mostly healthcare and data privacy. My firm is fairly large (300+) scattered throughout the country.

As for something another poster said, Nashville doesn’t pay 170 for a third year. My colleague recently came over from a prominent Nashville firm and said the pay raise was significant.

Nashville is not even close to a city even like Atlanta. Try about 50k less, maybe even more than that outside the top 3 or so firms.

[QContinuum]

It really depends on the market, and on the firm. A handful of firms pay the same rate regardless of market.

Keep in mind that my knowledge is a little out of date, so take that with a grain of salt

New York typically pays the most, and has the highest billable hours requirement
L.A., S.V., D.C., Boston, Dallas, Houston tend to pay the same, but somewhat better hours
Chicago and Philadelphia pay marginally less than NY for hours are comparable to LA, DC, etc.
Atlanta, Miami, Seattle tend to pay a bit less than Chicago and Philadelphia, for the same or marginally better hours
Minneapolis is paywise a step below that, for the same hours.

After that, it gets messy real fast. There just isn't much biglaw outside of those cities. While you may have McGuireWoods in Richmond, you're mainly talking midlaw or secondary offices of biglaw firms that may not even hire 1st year associates.

Now to answer the more important question: 1800 billable requirement in a tertiary market is reasonable. Some tertiary markets are as low as 1700, but nothing wrong with 1800. Base pay of $105k for a midlaw firm in any market is decent Base pay of $105k in most tertiary markets is decent. My guess is you're working in a regional powerhouse, and relative to your location, you're doing very well for yourself.

All the top Chicago firms pay market.

Agreed, I was surprised to see the assertion that Chicago pays less than NY market. That's false. However, excluding Chicago, I agree with the rest of FND's list.

Also, in addition to FND's (correct) statement that "a handful of firms pay the same rate regardless of market," there are also some other national BigLaw firms that don't pay the same rate across the U.S., but do still pay significantly above the local prevailing rate in secondary/tertiary markets. JD often does this, for example. So secondary/tertiary markets often have one payscale set by a BigLaw satellite office, and another payscale set by the local/regional powerhouse firms (which is probably what should be considered "market" as they will be the ones hiring the most bodies).

[FND]

Keep in mind that my knowledge is a little out of date, so take that with a grain of salt

I stand corrected on Chicago. I know when I was looking, many moons ago, they were slightly behind NYC, about 10% less. Though, I only looked at a handful of Chicago firms, so even then that might not have been a fair representtation

[2013]

Keep in mind that my knowledge is a little out of date, so take that with a grain of salt

I stand corrected on Chicago. I know when I was looking, many moons ago, they were slightly behind NYC, about 10% less. Though, I only looked at a handful of Chicago firms, so even then that might not have been a fair representtation

I don’t think you’re necessarily incorrect about Chicago, tbh.

Obviously Kirkland, Sidley, MWE, Winston, and the NY firms in Chicago pay market.

However, there are firms like Mayer Brown, Katten, etc., that pay market and advance you in class ONLY IF the associate meets hours and all of that kind of bs to underpay associates.

So while most of the top Chicago firms pay Cravath scale, some of them try to game the system.

[QContinuum]

However, there are firms like Mayer Brown, Katten, etc., that pay market and advance you in class ONLY IF the associate meets hours and all of that kind of bs to underpay associates.

Doesn't that happen in NY too, though? I don't think "gaming" the Cravath scale is unique to Chicago.

[Auxilio]

It really depends on the market, and on the firm. A handful of firms pay the same rate regardless of market.

Keep in mind that my knowledge is a little out of date, so take that with a grain of salt

New York typically pays the most, and has the highest billable hours requirement
L.A., S.V., D.C., Boston, Dallas, Houston tend to pay the same, but somewhat better hours
Chicago and Philadelphia pay marginally less than NY for hours are comparable to LA, DC, etc.
Atlanta, Miami, Seattle tend to pay a bit less than Chicago and Philadelphia, for the same or marginally better hours
Minneapolis is paywise a step below that, for the same hours.

After that, it gets messy real fast. There just isn't much biglaw outside of those cities. While you may have McGuireWoods in Richmond, you're mainly talking midlaw or secondary offices of biglaw firms that may not even hire 1st year associates.

The only thing I would add to this list is Delaware has a very large legal community paid market or close to market. I wouldn't be surprised if there was more positions in Wilmington starting at 170+ than in Philly to be honest.

Also isn't one of the Charlottes or Charlottesville or whatever a large market paying legal community?

[FND]

It really depends on the market, and on the firm. A handful of firms pay the same rate regardless of market.

Keep in mind that my knowledge is a little out of date, so take that with a grain of salt

New York typically pays the most, and has the highest billable hours requirement
L.A., S.V., D.C., Boston, Dallas, Houston tend to pay the same, but somewhat better hours
Chicago and Philadelphia pay marginally less than NY for hours are comparable to LA, DC, etc.
Atlanta, Miami, Seattle tend to pay a bit less than Chicago and Philadelphia, for the same or marginally better hours
Minneapolis is paywise a step below that, for the same hours.

After that, it gets messy real fast. There just isn't much biglaw outside of those cities. While you may have McGuireWoods in Richmond, you're mainly talking midlaw or secondary offices of biglaw firms that may not even hire 1st year associates.

The only thing I would add to this list is Delaware has a very large legal community paid market or close to market. I wouldn't be surprised if there was more positions in Wilmington starting at 170+ than in Philly to be honest.

Also isn't one of the Charlottes or Charlottesville or whatever a large market paying legal community?

You're right about Delaware, I totally forgot about them. They don't pay NY, but they're on a higher scale than Atlanta, Miami, et al. Only a handful of firms, but yeah, real biglaw.
There are other cities I don't know about, am less familiar with, etc. Denver is a good example
I do know that when I looked it up, NYC biglaw was by far the largest (number of positions) with DC in second place having less than half as many positions. Cities like L.A., S.V, Houston, Dallas have about a quarter as many jobs as NYC, and Atlanta/Seattle/Miami/Minneapolis type places having maybe half as many as that.

It's been a few years, but I recall there being close to 10k biglaw jobs in NYC, less than 5k in DC, and less than a thousand in plenty of other "major" cities

[QContinuum]

Also isn't one of the Charlottes or Charlottesville or whatever a large market paying legal community?

Definitely not in Charlottesville (that's the UVA college town), and Charlotte doesn't really have a large community either - there are a few BigLaw offices there, but certainly not a major market. I'd say smaller than Atlanta and I think Charlotte scale < Atlanta scale too (even though Charlotte COL isn't any lower than ATL).