It’s the little things....... Forum

[Anonymous User]

I want to note something else here. I’ve noticed that Blakes and Brendas who hey preferential treatment usually are from a certain class as well. I don’t want to downplay minorities getting the shaft, but, at the end of the day, a very certain type of person truly benefits from all of this.

Being a poor Blake from middle of nowhere is obviously still preferential to many (most?) Partner Blakes than Michael Minority. However, poor Blake still gets the shaft compared to country club/yacht club Blake.

Law firms are just really messed up places that will continue to benefit a certain group. It’s sad, but whatever.

Cosign. I'm gay and grew up working class, and I think they count against me about equally in my experiences so far (4th year).

[Anonymous User]

This thread is so comforting, including how many concurring responses it's gotten.

Literally just stood in a warm shower for an hour, trying to un-depress myself from work, for all the reasons described in this thread. I often feel like I need to "out white man the white man" just to get opportunities white male associates take for granted. It's so depressing and frankly disheartening.

FWIW, 5ft. 2in. Asian female, T14 grad, top 20 ugrad, but treated like invisible by most colleagues (even though I can be quite assertive). I have to fight my way onto cases when associates with less experience and worse credentials are just offered those opps. I've never gotten a bad review, either. Wtf.

A big part of the problem is cultural. I've never watched baseball or football (or any sport), and I hardly drink. Social occasions often involve drinking, talking about drinking when drinking, or talking about sports. I feel like an alien as the only minority.

[oblig.lawl.ref]

Generally try not to post this seriously but based on my experience as a straight white man, I feel strongly that I have benefitted in a measurable way from appearing to fit in as one of the largely white male partnership class. Again based on my experience, working in one of the more progressive markets, the white male culture pervades at high levels and at the end of the day I feel many partners view me as a candidate to be part of that class. I have heard things, often said because there are no women around but also sometimes because no visibly diverse people are around, that I think would surprise my colleagues. The fact that I'm allowed to be in that room matters a lot. Tokenism is going strong in parallel, though.

I see people from different backgrounds struggle to fit in as seamlessly. And I come from a truly middle class background. It took me a while to adapt to the higher class background but I think it's easier to do so if you're at least a straight white male.

I don't think it being a "mixed bag," because there are benefits to the tokenism as well, outweighs the benefit I enjoy from being perceived as being a candidate for the break-out room joke sessions with partners. I think these are real issues that people shouldn't dismiss or diminish.

[okaygo]

This thread is kind of getting close to the line of actually being racist with all the Blake squarejaw stuff.

A couple thoughts:

1) although I don’t have a minority’s experience, fwiw, most mid and juniors are treated and made to feel like complete worthless shit - indiscriminately. This may be even more so if you are a minority. But it is not an easy ride for many.

2) race aside, 6’3” good looking, confident, and charismatic Blake, or Jamal, will always have more opportunities than 5’9” Tom. That’s just the way life works.

Only someone who is not a URM would have the boldness to make such an assertion. No. A 6'3 good looking, confident and charismatic black man will not "always have more opportunities than 5'9'' Tom." That is quite literally not how any of this works.

[mvp99]

Generally try not to post this seriously but based on my experience as a straight white man, I feel strongly that I have benefitted in a measurable way from appearing to fit in as one of the largely white male partnership class. Again based on my experience, working in one of the more progressive markets, the white male culture pervades at high levels and at the end of the day I feel many partners view me as a candidate to be part of that class. I have heard things, often said because there are no women around but also sometimes because no visibly diverse people are around, that I think would surprise my colleagues. The fact that I'm allowed to be in that room matters a lot. Tokenism is going strong in parallel, though.

I see people from different backgrounds struggle to fit in as seamlessly. And I come from a truly middle class background. It took me a while to adapt to the higher class background but I think it's easier to do so if you're at least a straight white male.

I don't think it being a "mixed bag," because there are benefits to the tokenism as well, outweighs the benefit I enjoy from being perceived as being a candidate for the break-out room joke sessions with partners. I think these are real issues that people shouldn't dismiss or diminish.

What’s your thought process when partners e.g. make racist jokes? Just laugh it off?

[Anonymous User]

At my old firm (big law, secondary market) we had an informal lunch meeting where a partner said some incredibly sexist things about a domestic violence case that was in the news at the time, which led to the entire firm having to attend a training about domestic violence (and the partner ended up leaving the firm a few months later...). But in the exact same lunch, but probably 15 minutes after the domestic violence convo, three partners said some pretty racist stuff about the public schools their (private school) kids were playing against in lacrosse/football/soccer, and...nothing. NOTHING. No one seemed to think it was remotely a problem. That's big law for you - full of partners and high ranking leadership who think they're progressive but are actually completely blind to all the racist stuff that they're doing/saying.

[Anonymous User]

This thread is kind of getting close to the line of actually being racist with all the Blake squarejaw stuff.

A couple thoughts:

1) although I don’t have a minority’s experience, fwiw, most mid and juniors are treated and made to feel like complete worthless shit - indiscriminately. This may be even more so if you are a minority. But it is not an easy ride for many.

2) race aside, 6’3” good looking, confident, and charismatic Blake, or Jamal, will always have more opportunities than 5’9” Tom. That’s just the way life works.

Only someone who is not a URM would have the boldness to make such an assertion. No. A 6'3 good looking, confident and charismatic black man will not "always have more opportunities than 5'9'' Tom." That is quite literally not how any of this works.

Yeah, lol at that. Said charismatic, charming black man will be seen as a threat to 5'9 Tom.

[Anonymous User]

What’s your thought process when partners e.g. make racist jokes? Just laugh it off?

Until I have a seat at partner table, I give zero response -- no laugh, no acknowledgment, no endorsement, no emotion -- and hand write a memo to file and lock it in a drawer at home. That shit happens all the time. Racist. Sexist. Homophobic. The jokes are rarely malicious, but microaggressions are everywhere. And they are exhausting. But, HR isn't our friend. Neither is senior management. The number of legitimately serious offenses that are swept under the rug (e.g. relocating or RIF-ing victims of sexual harassment) leads me to have zero confidence that the firm will take steps to address jokes.

[Anonymous User]

I feel my work product is always subject to more scrutiny than others non-m. I have more than plain anecdotal evidence for this since as you all probably know, seniors ask from time to time that the midlevel or junior send their work to the partner or client. And I’ve good reviews...

[Anonymous User]

This thread is so comforting, including how many concurring responses it's gotten.

Literally just stood in a warm shower for an hour, trying to un-depress myself from work, for all the reasons described in this thread. I often feel like I need to "out white man the white man" just to get opportunities white male associates take for granted. It's so depressing and frankly disheartening.

FWIW, 5ft. 2in. Asian female, T14 grad, top 20 ugrad, but treated like invisible by most colleagues (even though I can be quite assertive). I have to fight my way onto cases when associates with less experience and worse credentials are just offered those opps. I've never gotten a bad review, either. Wtf.

A big part of the problem is cultural. I've never watched baseball or football (or any sport), and I hardly drink. Social occasions often involve drinking, talking about drinking when drinking, or talking about sports. I feel like an alien as the only minority.

I totally get where you’re coming from. I’m a 5’5” Asian male who looks like I’m still a fresh undergrad graduate but I’m actually in my early to mid 30s 5 years out of law school. I do good work and have a very niche skill that complements my legal work, but I’m always passed up for front-facing important events. At purely social events I can hold my own with the gang: talk shop, news, pop culture, or sports; but when it comes to certain client oriented events, the firm knows that some (not all) are not sophisticated enough to see pass the appearance.

I’m in government now (big fed to some degree) and I still feel the same for certain front facing meetings, like when meeting with industry or outside counsels. The GC (former big law partner) literally asked if i could not be at a meeting (i was the only non straight white male among the group of 5). Good thing was that I had a supportive superior (career government attorney with +20 years experience if that matter) and he said I was absolutely instrumental and needed to be there.

[Anonymous User]

Asian female associate who posted earlier.

I second the inappropriate comments partners make complaint. Once at a meeting, a partner commented casually that “all the young men in Prince George’s County are in jail.” This is a gross exaggeration, and I was made more uncomfortable by the fact that no one batted an eye...

[jhett]

Minority in-house counsel here. The vast majority of law firm partners I deal with are white males, but the power dynamic has has flipped since I control the work flow. This thread reminds me that I should pay more attention to the associate teams on my matters, and make sure that minority associates are given fair exposure.

[oblig.lawl.ref]

Generally try not to post this seriously but based on my experience as a straight white man, I feel strongly that I have benefitted in a measurable way from appearing to fit in as one of the largely white male partnership class. Again based on my experience, working in one of the more progressive markets, the white male culture pervades at high levels and at the end of the day I feel many partners view me as a candidate to be part of that class. I have heard things, often said because there are no women around but also sometimes because no visibly diverse people are around, that I think would surprise my colleagues. The fact that I'm allowed to be in that room matters a lot. Tokenism is going strong in parallel, though.

I see people from different backgrounds struggle to fit in as seamlessly. And I come from a truly middle class background. It took me a while to adapt to the higher class background but I think it's easier to do so if you're at least a straight white male.

I don't think it being a "mixed bag," because there are benefits to the tokenism as well, outweighs the benefit I enjoy from being perceived as being a candidate for the break-out room joke sessions with partners. I think these are real issues that people shouldn't dismiss or diminish.

What’s your thought process when partners e.g. make racist jokes? Just laugh it off?

I don't know that I've ever heard anything that I would specifically call a racist joke. It's more that they are off-color jokes (just trying to distinguish from truly racist jokes). As I kind of alluded to I find it's more often talking/joking about women they find attractive than racism. They do say things, like commenting are races or commenting on people who are certain races, that I do not think they would ever say with a broader audience. A lot of what is being describe above is in line with what I've heard.

To be honest my reaction to all is normally just smiling uncomfortably.

[mvp99]

Generally try not to post this seriously but based on my experience as a straight white man, I feel strongly that I have benefitted in a measurable way from appearing to fit in as one of the largely white male partnership class. Again based on my experience, working in one of the more progressive markets, the white male culture pervades at high levels and at the end of the day I feel many partners view me as a candidate to be part of that class. I have heard things, often said because there are no women around but also sometimes because no visibly diverse people are around, that I think would surprise my colleagues. The fact that I'm allowed to be in that room matters a lot. Tokenism is going strong in parallel, though.

I see people from different backgrounds struggle to fit in as seamlessly. And I come from a truly middle class background. It took me a while to adapt to the higher class background but I think it's easier to do so if you're at least a straight white male.

I don't think it being a "mixed bag," because there are benefits to the tokenism as well, outweighs the benefit I enjoy from being perceived as being a candidate for the break-out room joke sessions with partners. I think these are real issues that people shouldn't dismiss or diminish.

What’s your thought process when partners e.g. make racist jokes? Just laugh it off?

I don't know that I've ever heard anything that I would specifically call a racist joke. It's more that they are off-color jokes (just trying to distinguish from truly racist jokes). As I kind of alluded to I find it's more often talking/joking about women they find attractive than racism. They do say things, like commenting are races or commenting on people who are certain races, that I do not think they would ever say with a broader audience. A lot of what is being describe above is in line with what I've heard.

To be honest my reaction to all is normally just smiling uncomfortably.

I get what you’re saying re degree but please note the joke is still racist. Thinking it isn’t “truly” racist may be part of the issue.

[oblig.lawl.ref]

Generally try not to post this seriously but based on my experience as a straight white man, I feel strongly that I have benefitted in a measurable way from appearing to fit in as one of the largely white male partnership class. Again based on my experience, working in one of the more progressive markets, the white male culture pervades at high levels and at the end of the day I feel many partners view me as a candidate to be part of that class. I have heard things, often said because there are no women around but also sometimes because no visibly diverse people are around, that I think would surprise my colleagues. The fact that I'm allowed to be in that room matters a lot. Tokenism is going strong in parallel, though.

I see people from different backgrounds struggle to fit in as seamlessly. And I come from a truly middle class background. It took me a while to adapt to the higher class background but I think it's easier to do so if you're at least a straight white male.

I don't think it being a "mixed bag," because there are benefits to the tokenism as well, outweighs the benefit I enjoy from being perceived as being a candidate for the break-out room joke sessions with partners. I think these are real issues that people shouldn't dismiss or diminish.

What’s your thought process when partners e.g. make racist jokes? Just laugh it off?

I don't know that I've ever heard anything that I would specifically call a racist joke. It's more that they are off-color jokes (just trying to distinguish from truly racist jokes). As I kind of alluded to I find it's more often talking/joking about women they find attractive than racism. They do say things, like commenting are races or commenting on people who are certain races, that I do not think they would ever say with a broader audience. A lot of what is being describe above is in line with what I've heard.

To be honest my reaction to all is normally just smiling uncomfortably.

I get what you’re saying re degree but please note the joke is still racist. Thinking it isn’t “truly” racist may be part of the issue.

Don't think you really have the information necessary to make that determination. You're clearly making assumptions about what kind of joke I'm talking about because I gave no details. And it's probably counterproductive to try to nitpick and conclude a non-URM that came in here to try to validate the feelings expressed by URM colleagues may be part of the issue with so little details or information to go on.

[mvp99]

Generally try not to post this seriously but based on my experience as a straight white man, I feel strongly that I have benefitted in a measurable way from appearing to fit in as one of the largely white male partnership class. Again based on my experience, working in one of the more progressive markets, the white male culture pervades at high levels and at the end of the day I feel many partners view me as a candidate to be part of that class. I have heard things, often said because there are no women around but also sometimes because no visibly diverse people are around, that I think would surprise my colleagues. The fact that I'm allowed to be in that room matters a lot. Tokenism is going strong in parallel, though.

I see people from different backgrounds struggle to fit in as seamlessly. And I come from a truly middle class background. It took me a while to adapt to the higher class background but I think it's easier to do so if you're at least a straight white male.

I don't think it being a "mixed bag," because there are benefits to the tokenism as well, outweighs the benefit I enjoy from being perceived as being a candidate for the break-out room joke sessions with partners. I think these are real issues that people shouldn't dismiss or diminish.

What’s your thought process when partners e.g. make racist jokes? Just laugh it off?

I don't know that I've ever heard anything that I would specifically call a racist joke. It's more that they are off-color jokes (just trying to distinguish from truly racist jokes). As I kind of alluded to I find it's more often talking/joking about women they find attractive than racism. They do say things, like commenting are races or commenting on people who are certain races, that I do not think they would ever say with a broader audience. A lot of what is being describe above is in line with what I've heard.

To be honest my reaction to all is normally just smiling uncomfortably.

I get what you’re saying re degree but please note the joke is still racist. Thinking it isn’t “truly” racist may be part of the issue.

Don't think you really have the information necessary to make that determination. You're clearly making assumptions about what kind of joke I'm talking about because I gave no details. And it's probably counterproductive to try to nitpick and conclude a non-URM that came in here to try to validate the feelings expressed by URM colleagues may be part of the issue with so little details or information to go on.

I’ve no response, you re totally right.

[Anonymous User]

Generally try not to post this seriously but based on my experience as a straight white man, I feel strongly that I have benefitted in a measurable way from appearing to fit in as one of the largely white male partnership class. Again based on my experience, working in one of the more progressive markets, the white male culture pervades at high levels and at the end of the day I feel many partners view me as a candidate to be part of that class. I have heard things, often said because there are no women around but also sometimes because no visibly diverse people are around, that I think would surprise my colleagues. The fact that I'm allowed to be in that room matters a lot. Tokenism is going strong in parallel, though.

I see people from different backgrounds struggle to fit in as seamlessly. And I come from a truly middle class background. It took me a while to adapt to the higher class background but I think it's easier to do so if you're at least a straight white male.

I don't think it being a "mixed bag," because there are benefits to the tokenism as well, outweighs the benefit I enjoy from being perceived as being a candidate for the break-out room joke sessions with partners. I think these are real issues that people shouldn't dismiss or diminish.

What’s your thought process when partners e.g. make racist jokes? Just laugh it off?

I don't know that I've ever heard anything that I would specifically call a racist joke. It's more that they are off-color jokes (just trying to distinguish from truly racist jokes). As I kind of alluded to I find it's more often talking/joking about women they find attractive than racism. They do say things, like commenting are races or commenting on people who are certain races, that I do not think they would ever say with a broader audience. A lot of what is being describe above is in line with what I've heard.

To be honest my reaction to all is normally just smiling uncomfortably.

I get what you’re saying re degree but please note the joke is still racist. Thinking it isn’t “truly” racist may be part of the issue.

Don't think you really have the information necessary to make that determination. You're clearly making assumptions about what kind of joke I'm talking about because I gave no details. And it's probably counterproductive to try to nitpick and conclude a non-URM that came in here to try to validate the feelings expressed by URM colleagues may be part of the issue with so little details or information to go on.

People who make and participate in threads like this just want to see the world burn, brah.

Being perfectly honest, It would never occur to me to treat someone different because of their skin, gender, or sexual orientation, etc. and I am pretty confident that most ppl at my biglaw firm are the same.

whether playing victim because of URM status or class status or short white guy status, or for the ppl saying URMs somehow have it better than white ppl, pretty sure everyone here is treated poorly at their firm solely because they are assholes, and not for any other reason.

[mvp99]

Generally try not to post this seriously but based on my experience as a straight white man, I feel strongly that I have benefitted in a measurable way from appearing to fit in as one of the largely white male partnership class. Again based on my experience, working in one of the more progressive markets, the white male culture pervades at high levels and at the end of the day I feel many partners view me as a candidate to be part of that class. I have heard things, often said because there are no women around but also sometimes because no visibly diverse people are around, that I think would surprise my colleagues. The fact that I'm allowed to be in that room matters a lot. Tokenism is going strong in parallel, though.

I see people from different backgrounds struggle to fit in as seamlessly. And I come from a truly middle class background. It took me a while to adapt to the higher class background but I think it's easier to do so if you're at least a straight white male.

I don't think it being a "mixed bag," because there are benefits to the tokenism as well, outweighs the benefit I enjoy from being perceived as being a candidate for the break-out room joke sessions with partners. I think these are real issues that people shouldn't dismiss or diminish.

What’s your thought process when partners e.g. make racist jokes? Just laugh it off?

I don't know that I've ever heard anything that I would specifically call a racist joke. It's more that they are off-color jokes (just trying to distinguish from truly racist jokes). As I kind of alluded to I find it's more often talking/joking about women they find attractive than racism. They do say things, like commenting are races or commenting on people who are certain races, that I do not think they would ever say with a broader audience. A lot of what is being describe above is in line with what I've heard.

To be honest my reaction to all is normally just smiling uncomfortably.

I get what you’re saying re degree but please note the joke is still racist. Thinking it isn’t “truly” racist may be part of the issue.

Don't think you really have the information necessary to make that determination. You're clearly making assumptions about what kind of joke I'm talking about because I gave no details. And it's probably counterproductive to try to nitpick and conclude a non-URM that came in here to try to validate the feelings expressed by URM colleagues may be part of the issue with so little details or information to go on.

People who make and participate in threads like this just want to see the world burn, brah.

Being perfectly honest, It would never occur to me to treat someone different because of their skin, gender, or sexual orientation, etc. and I am pretty confident that most ppl at my biglaw firm are the same.

whether playing victim because of URM status or class status or short white guy status, or for the ppl saying URMs somehow have it better than white ppl, pretty sure everyone here is treated poorly at their firm solely because they are assholes, and not for any other reason.

Amazing anon! hiding behind an anon post even though already anon. Lmao

[Anonymous User]

Echo a lot of others on their experiences as a minority lawyer. Another classic example is the asian attorneys get assigned to all the tech prep parts of work whether it be setting up video depos or doing presentation preparation for trial but they bring you along just to do the tech shit. I've also seen where they bring different minorities for different meetings just to use them for their language skills or to show off their "diversity"

[lavarman84]

Yeah, I can't dispute any of what has been said here. I am a straight, white male from "a good family," and it has definitely benefited me. I think a lot of people in my shoes take umbrage at the idea that we have an advantage because they believe they've earned it. To a degree, many of them have earned success. However, what they fail to recognize is that they started on second base. Yes, they put in the effort to be successful, but others have worked just as hard or harder and not attained the same success because they weren't given the same opportunities.

I try not to lose sight of that fact. While I am grateful for the advantages I have, my goal is to level the playing field whenever I have the ability to do so.

There is one thing I have to say. When I hear people comparing their "credentials" to their coworkers' "credentials," it comes off as snobbish to me. Then again, the legal profession can be pretty snobbish.

[lavarman84]

People who make and participate in threads like this just want to see the world burn, brah.

Being perfectly honest, It would never occur to me to treat someone different because of their skin, gender, or sexual orientation, etc. and I am pretty confident that most ppl at my biglaw firm are the same.

whether playing victim because of URM status or class status or short white guy status, or for the ppl saying URMs somehow have it better than white ppl, pretty sure everyone here is treated poorly at their firm solely because they are assholes, and not for any other reason.

Well, you're not being perfectly honest. While it may or may not occur to you, odds are that you do. Unconscious bias is a hell of a thing. You have to make an effort to avoid it. It's silly to think law is different than any other field. Study after study has found racial bias in hiring, promoting, wage decisions, etc. You may think the firm treats people poorly because they're assholes, but you may not realize that the firm might treat minorities even more poorly than others because they're racially biased assholes.

[2013]

Yeah, I can't dispute any of what has been said here. I am a straight, white male from "a good family," and it has definitely benefited me. I think a lot of people in my shoes take umbrage at the idea that we have an advantage because they believe they've earned it. To a degree, many of them have earned success. However, what they fail to recognize is that they started on second base. Yes, they put in the effort to be successful, but others have worked just as hard or harder and not attained the same success because they weren't given the same opportunities.

I try not to lose sight of that fact. While I am grateful for the advantages I have, my goal is to level the playing field whenever I have the ability to do so.

There is one thing I have to say. When I hear people comparing their "credentials" to their coworkers' "credentials," it comes off as snobbish to me. Then again, the legal profession can be pretty snobbish.

I think people comparing their credentials to those of their coworkers in this thread has to do with the fact that, at many firms, minority/female attorney Joe/Jane is always a Magna Cum Laude graduate of T6 while many a time straight white male John is a median graduate of local state school. It’s infuriating that that white associate, even with those credentials, is always favored.

There are PLENTY of white male associates that have amazing credentials, but, there are a visible amount of average Joe white male associates that are headscratchers.

Some people on here might just be trying to toot their own horn wrt their credentials, but the others are just pointing out the fact that junior associates with nothing more than their credentials are already treated as an under-class compared to their lesser credentialed white male associates from day 1.

[nixy]

People who make and participate in threads like this just want to see the world burn, brah.

Being perfectly honest, It would never occur to me to treat someone different because of their skin, gender, or sexual orientation, etc. and I am pretty confident that most ppl at my biglaw firm are the same.

whether playing victim because of URM status or class status or short white guy status, or for the ppl saying URMs somehow have it better than white ppl, pretty sure everyone here is treated poorly at their firm solely because they are assholes, and not for any other reason.

Pretty sure that you don’t understand how race/class work, then. Lavarman’s kinder response is absolutely correct and people who say “I don’t see color” are lying to themselves.

[Anonymous User]

I'm a 2L who is a 5'2" gay woman of color scheduled to go to a V5 this summer. This thread makes me think I should just quit after finishing my SA.

[2013]

I'm a 2L who is a 5'2" gay woman of color scheduled to go to a V5 this summer. This thread makes me think I should just quit after finishing my SA.

Don’t be discouraged. The best thing to do is to find a mentor in the firm that has your best interests in mind and wants you to succeed. This person can be a gay woman of color or a white male. As long as you have someone fighting for you, a lot of the noise and BS is manageable.