It’s the little things....... Forum

[Anonymous User]

Is it me or are most minorities treated like second class associates? I’m a few years in and have seen some things I’m sure if proven would get someone fired. Anyone else notice these little and not so little things that only minorities have to endure? Not sure if I want to continue working in this environment but don’t think it would be different in other places.

Fyi I work in the very “progressive” state of NY.

[Anonymous User]

You're not the only one. I've seen it too and I wonder about it as well. It bothers me to see this happen to colleagues of mine. Like you said, it's tough to prove it. If you can find a happier place and just as good for your career, I'd make that leap.

[Anonymous User]

Agreed. Sucks and is not fair, but that's life.

[Anonymous User]

Tokenism is real and it is pervasive. I would love to see a breakdown of minority nonbillable/committee/firm citizenship work compared to that done by cis-straight-white Blake Squarejaw. And it seems like Blake has a long string of Boomer Blakes endorsing him and paving his way and feeding him work, so he always has an excuse to avoid the nonbillable work.

[Anonymous User]

People assuming you’re a junior (or a paralegal), being asked sex-related questions with impunity, given lower quality work from the start, etc.

[Anonymous User]

Any examples spring to mind? Could be useful to share some

[Anonymous User]

This thread is kind of getting close to the line of actually being racist with all the Blake squarejaw stuff.

A couple thoughts:

1) although I don’t have a minority’s experience, fwiw, most mid and juniors are treated and made to feel like complete worthless shit - indiscriminately. This may be even more so if you are a minority. But it is not an easy ride for many.

2) race aside, 6’3” good looking, confident, and charismatic Blake, or Jamal, will always have more opportunities than 5’9” Tom. That’s just the way life works.

[Anonymous User]

Any examples spring to mind? Could be useful to share some

* Being included in recruiting for minorities but never having any of your recommendations be advanced.
* Being included in sales pitch materials as a "key player" then being assigned a minuscule role.
* Hearing about good-ol-boyish client events on the day-of with the dismissive apology, "Oh, I assumed you wouldn't be interested."
* Observing partners stop by every Blake's office to chat then bypassing yours or giving a terse "hi."
* Knowing that when you clear your desk you'll have to re-solicit more work while Blake seems to have a continuously, manageably full plate.
* Receiving repeated Friday night weekend-busting assignments while Blake's new dad status has him celebrated for getting home by 6, although he generously (and loudly) offers you to text him "in case things get too busy."
* Hallway chatter about inane crap for 40 minutes.

Gay V25 senior associate. I could go on for hours.

[Anonymous User]

This thread is kind of getting close to the line of actually being racist with all the Blake squarejaw stuff.

A couple thoughts:

1) although I don’t have a minority’s experience, fwiw, most mid and juniors are treated and made to feel like complete worthless shit - indiscriminately. This may be even more so if you are a minority. But it is not an easy ride for many.

2) race aside, 6’3” good looking, confident, and charismatic Blake, or Jamal, will always have more opportunities than 5’9” Tom. That’s just the way life works.

I agree with 2. Unless 5’9 Tom looks like a Greek god. At the end of the day, more attractive people get more opportunities. I don’t think race has as much to do with it as general physical beauty.

I have a very mediocre coworker who is constantly praised by firm leadership. He plays the part very well, which seems to matter more than actually being good at your job.

It’s annoying, but you have to play the game. If you’re not attractive (or seen as attractive), try to be the funny likable one.

[Anonymous User]

This thread is kind of getting close to the line of actually being racist with all the Blake squarejaw stuff.

A couple thoughts:

1) although I don’t have a minority’s experience, fwiw, most mid and juniors are treated and made to feel like complete worthless shit - indiscriminately. This may be even more so if you are a minority. But it is not an easy ride for many.

2) race aside, 6’3” good looking, confident, and charismatic Blake, or Jamal, will always have more opportunities than 5’9” Tom. That’s just the way life works.

It’s annoying, but you have to play the game. If you’re not attractive (or seen as attractive), try to be the funny likable one.

And what if we're neither? Asking for a friend.

[nixy]

This thread is kind of getting close to the line of actually being racist with all the Blake squarejaw stuff.

Not really.

[Anonymous User]

Any examples spring to mind? Could be useful to share some

* Being included in recruiting for minorities but never having any of your recommendations be advanced.
* Being included in sales pitch materials as a "key player" then being assigned a minuscule role.
* Hearing about good-ol-boyish client events on the day-of with the dismissive apology, "Oh, I assumed you wouldn't be interested."
* Observing partners stop by every Blake's office to chat then bypassing yours or giving a terse "hi."
* Knowing that when you clear your desk you'll have to re-solicit more work while Blake seems to have a continuously, manageably full plate.
* Receiving repeated Friday night weekend-busting assignments while Blake's new dad status has him celebrated for getting home by 6, although he generously (and loudly) offers you to text him "in case things get too busy."
* Hallway chatter about inane crap for 40 minutes.

Gay V25 senior associate. I could go on for hours.

The first half of your list sounds like tokenism, which sounds terrible and would make me furious. The second half sounds simply like you aren’t very likable, prolly has nothing to do with your sexual orientation.

Source: I’m kind of unlikable - also, very likable gay guy down my hall who gets the “Blake Squarejaw” treatment you are describing.

[cavalier1138]

Any examples spring to mind? Could be useful to share some

* Being included in recruiting for minorities but never having any of your recommendations be advanced.
* Being included in sales pitch materials as a "key player" then being assigned a minuscule role.
* Hearing about good-ol-boyish client events on the day-of with the dismissive apology, "Oh, I assumed you wouldn't be interested."
* Observing partners stop by every Blake's office to chat then bypassing yours or giving a terse "hi."
* Knowing that when you clear your desk you'll have to re-solicit more work while Blake seems to have a continuously, manageably full plate.
* Receiving repeated Friday night weekend-busting assignments while Blake's new dad status has him celebrated for getting home by 6, although he generously (and loudly) offers you to text him "in case things get too busy."
* Hallway chatter about inane crap for 40 minutes.

Gay V25 senior associate. I could go on for hours.

The first half of your list sounds like tokenism, which sounds terrible and would make me furious. The second half sounds simply like you aren’t very likable, prolly has nothing to do with your sexual orientation.

Source: I’m kind of unlikable - also, very likable gay guy down my hall who gets the “Blake Squarejaw” treatment you are describing.

Yeah, I was mostly on board until I got to the complaint about Blake getting seemingly preferential treatment because of his "new dad" status. If Blake were Brenda, we would applaud that.

[Anonymous User]

* Receiving repeated Friday night weekend-busting assignments while Blake's new dad status has him celebrated for getting home by 6, although he generously (and loudly) offers you to text him "in case things get too busy."

I have seen many associates avoid some of the nastier assignments upon their return from maternity or paternity leave. I am totally cool with it as I know that I don’t have to deal with a newborn child in my spare time.

[LBJ's Hair]

regarding, specifically, the "XYZ partner likes Blake more than me" complaint...

totally understand how that's frustrating. at the same time...if you want to develop a closer relationship with a senior, you have to be the one putting in the effort. XYZ partner has a wife, kids, billables to hit, whatever - he is not thinking "what can I do to help advance Anonymous's career"? you have to give him a reason to care.

say XYZ likes football and so does Blake, that's potentially enough to build this connection. is some sort of grand gender bias playing a part? yeah I guess sure, we can wax on for hours about it...and then we can spend ten minutes in the morning twice a week stopping by XYZ's office to chat with him about his family or w/e.

presumably we've all developed friendships with people who don't look exactly like us. it's a little harder, sure, but if you're intentional about it, certainly not insurmountable.

[Anonymous User]

As a Blake, I have seen good looking, confident, charismatic and intelligent URM associates who were excluded from good opportunities regardless. It's naive to think URM status doesn't play a role.

[Anonymous User]

As a Blake, I have seen good looking, confident, charismatic and intelligent URM associates who were excluded from good opportunities regardless. It's naive to think URM status doesn't play a role.

Is it URM or is it just M? How are ORMs treated?

[nixy]

As a Blake, I have seen good looking, confident, charismatic and intelligent URM associates who were excluded from good opportunities regardless. It's naive to think URM status doesn't play a role.

Yeah, I get that people are trying to be helpful but I think it’s also naive to say that if the URM (and I’d say ORM too) just tries harder to develop a friendship or be “more likable” that that’s going to level the playing field.

[2013]

I want to note something else here. I’ve noticed that Blakes and Brendas who hey preferential treatment usually are from a certain class as well. I don’t want to downplay minorities getting the shaft, but, at the end of the day, a very certain type of person truly benefits from all of this.

Being a poor Blake from middle of nowhere is obviously still preferential to many (most?) Partner Blakes than Michael Minority. However, poor Blake still gets the shaft compared to country club/yacht club Blake.

Law firms are just really messed up places that will continue to benefit a certain group. It’s sad, but whatever.

[Anonymous User]

As a Blake, I have seen good looking, confident, charismatic and intelligent URM associates who were excluded from good opportunities regardless. It's naive to think URM status doesn't play a role.

Is it URM or is it just M? How are ORMs treated?

In my experience, although I'm a URM, not an ORM, a lot of the same shit applies. ORMs are seemingly less likely to face lack of intelligence stereotypes, but then get hit harder with the anti-social stereotypes. In the beginning, I think it's harder to be a URM. But, I think that it shifts, especially as relationships start becoming more important than work product.

[BeeTeeZ]

In my market firms are tripping over themselves trying to hire/retain URM lawyers. Everyone's competing in the "look we're not racist" Olympics.

[2013]

In my market firms are tripping over themselves trying to hire/retain URM lawyers. Everyone's competing in the "look we're not racist" Olympics.

I think I know what market this is and firms just say that so people “think” the firm is trying. If they truly cared, they’d have a lot of diverse attorneys by now.

[Anonymous User]

It's terrible being a minority. I'm a "ORM" minority with the best credentials of any associate in my practice group, I'm active in bar associates, and managed to invite my firm to a pitch, but I frequently see myself getting the short end of the stick. This is despite getting excellent reviews + being on the higher ranger of billing.

I tend to be passed over for "visible roles" on litigations. They'll let dumber, more jr associates take visible roles over me sometimes. Honestly, I sometimes wonder if it's cause they don't want to risk losing a case to a prejudiced jury since some of are cases are in working class cities.

To make matters worse, I grew up in a middle class family, so that compounds matters - I just don't have the "taste" a lot of my coworkers do. Thus, half the time I think it's a minority issue the other half of the time I think it's a socioeconomic issue. But either way, I think diversity is really important...

[Anonymous User]

biglaw junior here: does this stuff matter if I don't care about making partner/counsel and want to get out asap?

[Anonymous User]

biglaw junior here: does this stuff matter if I don't care about making partner/counsel and want to get out asap?

It matters infinitely less. It may not matter at all, depending on how long you intend to stick around. Some in house roles (assuming thats what you want) will be competitive though, so you'll still want a good resume.