When does employment begin after Summer Associate position? Forum

[NAMLEX]

Hi there,

I wondered what the typical employment start date is for larger law firms after a successful Summer Associate position?

My issue is this: I am a dual US/UK national and am considering doing a JD with advanced standing (completing in two years instead of three). I understand that it is possible in these circumstances to partake in OCI before the first year of the JD commences. However, for various reasons I would like to partake in OCI after my first year, the same as all regular JD students. The problem with this is that I would be finished law school by the time the summer associate position comes around (I may not even be eligible to partake in OCI after one year as a student with advanced standing). I have queried about this before on TLS and was advised to stick within the standard recruitment parameters as much as possible.

In the interests of adhering to those parameters I would even be willing to do extra semester (i.e. advanced standing of one semester instead of two) if it meant I could partake in OCI after my first year. This would effectively mean I would finish law school halfway through 3L.

I was wondering, therefore, how long I might have to wait before starting to work? I do not assume that firms would be flexible with start dates. Also, assume for the purpose of this question that I would be NY qualified during JD studies (I am already eligible for bar exam based on UK credentials).

Any thoughts would be much appreciated.

[NAMLEX]

In short, when do incoming associates usually start, and are start dates at all flexible?

[justanotherlurker]

General timeline:
OCI August 2019
Summer Associate Position: June to August 2020
Incoming Associates Start full time: Fall (~Aug. to ~Nov.) 2021. Somewhat flexible within that range, depending on the firm.

You should try to apply to firms outside of OCI. Some firms take students for their 1L summer; where they'd apply and interview in the Winter/Spring of 1L year to begin that summer. Some law schools even have an abbreviated winter/spring OCI. I'd recommend giving that a shot during 1L (with detailed explanation, tailored cover letters), as well as doing broader OCI after 1L.

[NAMLEX]

General timeline:
OCI August 2019
Summer Associate Position: June to August 2020
Incoming Associates Start full time: Fall (~Aug. to ~Nov.) 2021. Somewhat flexible within that range, depending on the firm.

You should try to apply to firms outside of OCI. Some firms take students for their 1L summer; where they'd apply and interview in the Winter/Spring of 1L year to begin that summer. Some law schools even have an abbreviated winter/spring OCI. I'd recommend giving that a shot during 1L (with detailed explanation, tailored cover letters), as well as doing broader OCI after 1L.

Thanks very much, most helpful. An earliest possible start of August would mean a seven month wait which isn't ideal. I will certainly look into any Spring OCI options. I assume far fewer employers partake in spring OCI than regular 2L OCI?

[Mullens]

Didn’t you already ask if you could participate in OCI after your first year and receive a pretty definitive answer that you likely won’t be allowed to do it? You really need to ask these questions to the specific school before you enroll. Schools have rigid policies on who can participate in OCI and when. The likelihood of you getting an exception is extremely low. Further, firms aren’t going to want to hire someone as a summer associate who will have already graduated.

All of that being said, some firms will allow students who graduate in December to start early (e.g. Michigan summer starters).

[NAMLEX]

Didn’t you already ask if you could participate in OCI after your first year and receive a pretty definitive answer that you likely won’t be allowed to do it? You really need to ask these questions to the specific school before you enroll. Schools have rigid policies on who can participate in OCI and when. The likelihood of you getting an exception is extremely low. Further, firms aren’t going to want to hire someone as a summer associate who will have already graduated.

All of that being said, some firms will allow students who graduate in December to start early (e.g. Michigan summer starters).

Hi there,

Thanks for your response. Yes, as I mentioned in my original post I have inquired about this before on a TLS thread. That last thread, however, was about OCI specifically, this question is about when incoming associates start working for their firms.

As you can see from this thread I have taken on board the input from the last thread and have assumed that my only options are: OCI before my first year in a two year structure; or take an extra semester and OCI after one year. (In other words I have taken previous advice and ruled out a summer associate position after graduating). This isn't a repeat of my last thread, it's a different question, i.e. if I took an extra semester how long would I have to wait before starting to work. It's a pretty important consideration and this point wasn't addressed in the last thread.

I will of course get all the relevant information from my careers office in due course, but its still helpful at this stage to get as much of an idea as possible about how my circumstances will affect my journey through the recruitment process.

[Wubbles]

Lol what decent school is going to just let you come for a weird extra semester?? Just do the 3 year JD if you want to be a US lawyer at a biglaw firm, and go to a t13 school to do that.

[NAMLEX]

Lol what decent school is going to just let you come for a weird extra semester?? Just do the 3 year JD if you want to be a US lawyer at a biglaw firm, and go to a t13 school to do that.

Hi Wubbles, advanced standing is applied for and granted after the candidate has been admitted to the program in the normal manner. Credit is awarded based on courses taken at foreign law schools. A maximum of two semesters credit may be granted however I understand that in some instances a single semesters credit may be granted.

It's not so much a case of adding a "weird extra semester", it's more a case of how many semesters a school will permit you to subtract from the normal JD structure. Harvard, Chicago, Columbia, Penn and Duke are some "decent schools" that provide for such arrangements.

And yes, a full 3 year JD is an option, but so is advanced standing.

[LBJ's Hair]

Go to one of those schools, never heard of "advanced standing." If an administrator told you directly you can graduate in two or two and a half years or whatever system you've come up with, fair enough, but if you've implied it from some arcane reference to # of credit hours required for graduation or something, would encourage you to confirm this is a possibility with a Dean.

[SFSpartan]

This thread seems premature, primarily because the answer is going to be school specific. I'd encourage you to discuss the concept of "advanced standing" with the administrations of each school you are seriously considering, as they likely have different rules/policies re: same.

[NAMLEX]

This thread seems premature, primarily because the answer is going to be school specific. I'd encourage you to discuss the concept of "advanced standing" with the administrations of each school you are seriously considering, as they likely have different rules/policies re: same.

Thanks for your message.

Several folk here seem to be fixating on advanced standing. In fact this thread has nothing to do with advanced standing (I only mentioned it to give a bit of context to my question). My question was a really straightforward one - when do incoming associates start work? Justanotherlurker gave me a very straightforward answer - anytime between August and November.

Case closed.

[nixy]

To be fair, it’s usually possible to graduate a semester early in an ordinary 3-year JD program, if you load up on summer courses and the like. Most people don’t bother for exactly the reason the OP’s figuring out, that most legal jobs are on a “start in the fall” hiring cycle, but I’ve known people who graduated early when they do have a job lined up (the ones I know have been PDs/ADAs).

That said, it would likely make more sense to enter a 3-year program and graduate a semester early than to enter a 2-year program and add a semester (to the extent it ever makes sense to try to find a job that starts after the February bar).

[NAMLEX]

Go to one of those schools, never heard of "advanced standing." If an administrator told you directly you can graduate in two or two and a half years or whatever system you've come up with, fair enough, but if you've implied it from some arcane reference to # of credit hours required for graduation or something, would encourage you to confirm this is a possibility with a Dean.

There's no reason at all why you would have heard of it. It would only apply to foreign educated lawyers who have foreign law degrees. You can find information about it in the JD rules of the schools I mentioned. It happens on a case by case basis and can only be petitioned for once the student has been admitted through the regular application process.

[NAMLEX]

To be fair, it’s usually possible to graduate a semester early in an ordinary 3-year JD program, if you load up on summer courses and the like. Most people don’t bother for exactly the reason the OP’s figuring out, that most legal jobs are on a “start in the fall” hiring cycle, but I’ve known people who graduated early when they do have a job lined up (the ones I know have been PDs/ADAs).

That said, it would likely make more sense to enter a 3-year program and graduate a semester early than to enter a 2-year program and add a semester (to the extent it ever makes sense to try to find a job that starts after the February bar).

Helpful comment, thanks.

[Anonymous User]

This might not be too helpful, but I know of someone who was in a unique situation where they were studying for the bar exam while simultaneously working as a summer associate, took the bar in July, then ended with the other summers and took a bar trip, and came back to start working as a real associate at that same firm with the first-year class in October a couple months later.

I don't think this were a foreign/advanced standing situation - rather, I am pretty sure they were supposed to summer as a 2L just like everyone, but they had a health/family emergency that took them away from the job after only a week, and so the firm worked with them to get them that experience the next summer anyway. But maybe a similar set-up could be possible.

[NAMLEX]

This might not be too helpful, but I know of someone who was in a unique situation where they were studying for the bar exam while simultaneously working as a summer associate, took the bar in July, then ended with the other summers and took a bar trip, and came back to start working as a real associate at that same firm with the first-year class in October a couple months later.

I don't think this were a foreign/advanced standing situation - rather, I am pretty sure they were supposed to summer as a 2L just like everyone, but they had a health/family emergency that took them away from the job after only a week, and so the firm worked with them to get them that experience the next summer anyway. But maybe a similar set-up could be possible.

That's interesting, thanks.

[cavalier1138]

Several folk here seem to be fixating on advanced standing.

The reason people are fixating on it is that big firms hire on specific timelines when they take on summer associates. Because you're talking about an advanced standing program (and I wish you'd specify which school is allowing this, because last I checked, the only T13 two-year program shut down a few years ago), it's weird that you're trying to go through the normal interview and SA process that a 3-year student would.

[nixy]

(Advanced standing for foreign grads isn’t the same as a 2-year program - you apply to the same 3-year JD as everyone else, you then petition to finish sooner. It’s not like Northwestern’s AJD program.)

[NAMLEX]

(Advanced standing for foreign grads isn’t the same as a 2-year program - you apply to the same 3-year JD as everyone else, you then petition to finish sooner. It’s not like Northwestern’s AJD program.)

Yes, thanks for clarifying this.

There is some confusion here between: an accelerated JD (same content as 3 year program but completed over 2 years); a designated 2-year JD for Foreign Attorneys (separate JD program with separate admissions process); and a normal JD program that permits a candidate to petition, once admitted, for credits based on foreign legal education.

[Npret]

It’s still confusing me as to why you are asking School specific questions hen you haven’t applied or been accepted. I don’t recall if you’ve even taken the LSAT.
All I recall is you seem very determined to be a special case for some reason. I understand not wanting to pay more tuition and graduating early, but you seem to be setting up a lot of unnecessary hoops.
You don’t even know you will be accepted into any of these school.
I don’t get it.

[SFSpartan]

This thread seems premature, primarily because the answer is going to be school specific. I'd encourage you to discuss the concept of "advanced standing" with the administrations of each school you are seriously considering, as they likely have different rules/policies re: same.

Thanks for your message.

Several folk here seem to be fixating on advanced standing. In fact this thread has nothing to do with advanced standing (I only mentioned it to give a bit of context to my question). My question was a really straightforward one - when do incoming associates start work? Justanotherlurker gave me a very straightforward answer - anytime between August and November.

Case closed.

That's my fault. I meant to post this in your advanced standing thread. Btw, people are probably fixated on advanced standing in this thread (and vice versa in the other) because you set up two threads to address separate but interrelated topics.

[wishywashy]

Not really what you asked, but would you consider doing a JD/LLM? That would probably put you back to having 3 years of law school and a shot at doing the normal OCI rounds (not sure if it opens another can of worms on LLM OCI vs JD OCI). Might be a better way than simply hanging around an extra semester or taking only 1 semester of advanced standing when you could get two.

Best of luck OP.

[KunAgnis]

Several folk here seem to be fixating on advanced standing.

The reason people are fixating on it is that big firms hire on specific timelines when they take on summer associates. Because you're talking about an advanced standing program (and I wish you'd specify which school is allowing this, because last I checked, the only T13 two-year program shut down a few years ago), it's weird that you're trying to go through the normal interview and SA process that a 3-year student would.

He's already stated that Harvard, Chicago, Columbia, Penn, and Duke allow this procedure.

[QContinuum]

It’s still confusing me as to why you are asking School specific questions hen you haven’t applied or been accepted. I don’t recall if you’ve even taken the LSAT.
All I recall is you seem very determined to be a special case for some reason. I understand not wanting to pay more tuition and graduating early, but you seem to be setting up a lot of unnecessary hoops.
You don’t even know you will be accepted into any of these school.
I don’t get it.

I second the above. Our advice has always been to seek to be the rule, not the exception to the rule. It's generally wise to take the path of least resistance whenever possible. That's why, for example, we advise folks wanting BigLaw to retake the LSAT until they can be admitted to a T13 - instead of struggling to be the exception to the rule at a T2 or T3 law school. Similarly, to the extent OP is already investing in a J.D. (instead of simply doing a 1-year LL.M., which would be the path to take if saving tuition money was the paramount consideration), it really would just make sense to bite the bullet and do a "full," traditional 3-year J.D.

Also, I haven't looked into this at all but if OP does a 2-year J.D. using his advanced standing foreign credits, would that have any adverse impact on his eligibility for bar admissions? Many states have fairly strict requirements and this would be a serious concern for me if I were in OP's shoes.

[nixy]

Obviously he should check on the state bar requirements, but if the degree-granting school awards advanced standing it sounds like it's basically accepting foreign credits as the equivalent of transfer credits, so ending up with the equivalent of three years. I find it hard to think schools would offer the advanced standing to international students if people granted that status wouldn't be able to take the bar.

I agree with the concerns to the extent that it seems unrealistic both to do the advanced standing and try to follow the traditional timeline for biglaw hiring. But I think people have made clear that's probably not going to work very well and that if the OP wants to do OCI after a year of classes (rather than before), the 3 year JD program makes more sense than advanced standing.