Firm to Fed Forum

[Anonymous User]

Hi. I am a fourth-year litigation associate at v10 firm (not sure if this is the proper lingo-- it's been a while) in a big city. I am looking to transition to federal employment within the next two years. I am totally overwhelmed and am not sure where to start in terms of evaluating WHERE I want to go. Any advice or resources would be much-appreciated. I have thought about applying for a USAO position, but the salary is not doable for me if I plan on staying in big city given that my SO works for the government and does not make enough right now for this to be manageable.

Why I want to exit is to go somewhere where I can get more firsthand experience managing my own cases, arguing in court, and actually feeling like a *real* litigator who is doing something that I feel is meaningful. It's really the last part. I love being a litigator and the legally complex cases I have worked on here, but I can't really shake the feeling that if I were to die tomorrow I would not have bettered society in any way whatsoever and whenever I am slow at work, this depresses me.

I am aiming for a fed position vs. state for better salary options, more flexibility in terms of bar/location.

[gingerbread]

Which big city are you in and are you willing to move? Obviously federal government exit options are going to be very different in DC than NYC.

[Anonymous User]

Which big city are you in and are you willing to move? Obviously federal government exit options are going to be very different in DC than NYC.

Thanks. I am in NYC.

[Anonymous User]

Hi-- Bump in case anyone has any advice. I don't think I can move to DC at this point given my SO's new job (and my SO's extreme disdain for DC). We may be willing to move to another city in a few years, but probably not DC.

DOJ always was something that was appealing to me (Civil Rights Division was my dream job at one point, if that department still even exists). Still thinking about USAO and am spooked a bit given the low pay for the NYC region. The thought of something criminal-related is exciting to me. But I am open to really any federal position that will get me arguing in court where the subject matter is not terribly boring and allows me to do something *meaningful*. SEC?

[I know I probably sound like an uninformed person, which I am, since I have had the luxury of not having to think about jobs since 1L OCI several years ago, so please bear with me.]

[clarion]

Hey so, fed here. (Not currently in a litigating role). If court experience is rally what you're craving, the options are basically limited to DOJ and AUSA. DOJ Civil Rights still exits, but I wouldn't expect them to hire under this administration. (On the upside, if the administration flips in 2021, there may be a lot of hiring that needs to happen). I know some agencies like FTC have independent litigating authority under their statute, and so they actually do get to litigate their own cases. But the vast majority of agencies do not have that option, so while agencies do have their own litigators, a lot of what those litigators do can be compared to in-house litigation counsel at a private company; advising on litigation risk, creating the administrative record for litigation, coordinating with independent counsel (i.e., DOJ), etc. And of course there are federal public defenders, but if that isn't immediately what you latch onto wanting to experience, it probably isn't the right choice lol

Tl;dr. All agencies have litigators, but if you're most interested in arguing and getting court experience, it's down to DOJ, AUSAs and FTC/agencies with independent litigating authority. If you can get a gig as an enforcement attorney in some other agency, those roles can provide you with opportunities to litigate. But it will be administrative proceedings (in front of an ALJ) and the expectation should be that RARELY will anything go to a hearing. It's more likely that you'll deal with the occasional deposition, and a whole lot of complaint/demand/motions drafting.

Hope that provides you some help.

[Elston Gunn]

Hi-- Bump in case anyone has any advice. I don't think I can move to DC at this point given my SO's new job (and my SO's extreme disdain for DC). We may be willing to move to another city in a few years, but probably not DC.

DOJ always was something that was appealing to me (Civil Rights Division was my dream job at one point, if that department still even exists). Still thinking about USAO and am spooked a bit given the low pay for the NYC region. The thought of something criminal-related is exciting to me. But I am open to really any federal position that will get me arguing in court where the subject matter is not terribly boring and allows me to do something *meaningful*. SEC?

[I know I probably sound like an uninformed person, which I am, since I have had the luxury of not having to think about jobs since 1L OCI several years ago, so please bear with me.]

I’d just recommend going on the USA Jobs and search for 0905 (the number for attorney). Read job descriptions etc. That’ll give you a good sense of the jobs that are out there. That said, what you’re talking about—litigating for the government without moving to DC or making as little as an AUSA—is going to be *extremely* difficult. As just an example because you brought it up, the SEC in recent years almost never hires people from outside the agency.

If you’re willing to make a little less NYC Law Department, NYAG and NYDFS should also be on your radar.

[Anonymous User]

OP here. Thanks very much, everyone. This is super helpful (and perhaps will help persuade my SO to be more open to DC at some point in the future, even if just for a few years).

[Anonymous User]

the SEC lifted its hiring freeze and should be hiring enforcement attorneys in NY soon. you won't get the trial experience, but you'll be able to run investigations, take testimony, and make a pretty good salary while you do it.

[objctnyrhnr]

the SEC lifted its hiring freeze and should be hiring enforcement attorneys in NY soon. you won't get the trial experience, but you'll be able to run investigations, take testimony, and make a pretty good salary while you do it.

What types of requirements are there for these gigs? How do they compare to ausa gigs in terms of selectivity? Are there sec gigs in smaller cities? If so, are they comparably relatively less competitive to ausa gigs in smaller markets?

[lawfan2012]

the SEC lifted its hiring freeze and should be hiring enforcement attorneys in NY soon. you won't get the trial experience, but you'll be able to run investigations, take testimony, and make a pretty good salary while you do it.

What types of requirements are there for these gigs? How do they compare to ausa gigs in terms of selectivity? Are there sec gigs in smaller cities? If so, are they comparably relatively less competitive to ausa gigs in smaller markets?

SEC Enforcement spots are some of the best in the federal government in terms of the mix of pay, benefits/lifestyle, “prestige,” and exit options. It isn’t going to be easy to get one of these jobs in any market. Certainly in major markets the number of applicants per slot will be similar to AUSA spots. And the background of Enforcement hires in recent years will be similar to that of people who are competitive for AUSA spots as well - good law schools, often Article III clerkships, Big Law or strong boutique experience. While the SEC does have Enforcement employees in a number of offices throughout the country, I wouldn’t expect the qualifications of a hire in a smaller office to be significantly different than that. Smaller offices presumably do have fewer applicants overall than, say, New York.

[objctnyrhnr]

the SEC lifted its hiring freeze and should be hiring enforcement attorneys in NY soon. you won't get the trial experience, but you'll be able to run investigations, take testimony, and make a pretty good salary while you do it.

What types of requirements are there for these gigs? How do they compare to ausa gigs in terms of selectivity? Are there sec gigs in smaller cities? If so, are they comparably relatively less competitive to ausa gigs in smaller markets?

SEC Enforcement spots are some of the best in the federal government in terms of the mix of pay, benefits/lifestyle, “prestige,” and exit options. It isn’t going to be easy to get one of these jobs in any market. Certainly in major markets the number of applicants per slot will be similar to AUSA spots. And the background of Enforcement hires in recent years will be similar to that of people who are competitive for AUSA spots as well - good law schools, often Article III clerkships, Big Law or strong boutique experience. While the SEC does have Enforcement employees in a number of offices throughout the country, I wouldn’t expect the qualifications of a hire in a smaller office to be significantly different than that. Smaller offices presumably do have fewer applicants overall than, say, New York.

Assume one has the credentials to which you’re referring. Assuming the experience is the same, how much are the hirers going to care about getting lit experience at like a holland and knight versus maybe a quinn or a white and case? In other words, once you get to market-paying biglaw, does firm prestige matter at all?

[lawfan2012]

Assume one has the credentials to which you’re referring. Assuming the experience is the same, how much are the hirers going to care about getting lit experience at like a holland and knight versus maybe a quinn or a white and case? In other words, once you get to market-paying biglaw, does firm prestige matter at all?

If literally all else is exactly equal I would expect that the person with the experience at a firm that is better in the relevant practice area would have an advantage. And that doesn’t just mean Vault rankings or whatever but includes whether the firm’s white collar group has a good reputation with the SEC office you are applying to. And I would expect that that would play some role (although how big a role it is probably impossible to say) even when all else isn’t equal. But of course a lot of other things matter too, like litigation and investigations experience at the firm, experience with the securities laws, etc.

[objctnyrhnr]

Assume one has the credentials to which you’re referring. Assuming the experience is the same, how much are the hirers going to care about getting lit experience at like a holland and knight versus maybe a quinn or a white and case? In other words, once you get to market-paying biglaw, does firm prestige matter at all?

If literally all else is exactly equal I would expect that the person with the experience at a firm that is better in the relevant practice area would have an advantage. And that doesn’t just mean Vault rankings or whatever but includes whether the firm’s white collar group has a good reputation with the SEC office you are applying to. And I would expect that that would play some role (although how big a role it is probably impossible to say) even when all else isn’t equal. But of course a lot of other things matter too, like litigation and investigations experience at the firm, experience with the securities laws, etc.

What would you say is the postgrad sweet spot or maybe the typical post grad range of years for landing sec? Is there a number of years post grad after which landing sec gets harder, or are people regularly getting it out of “of counsel” or junior partner positions?

[lawfan2012]

What would you say is the postgrad sweet spot or maybe the typical post grad range of years for landing sec? Is there a number of years post grad after which landing sec gets harder, or are people regularly getting it out of “of counsel” or junior partner positions?

Six to ten years out of law school seems pretty typical. Which is not to say that there aren’t outliers on either side. If someone is a junior partner you might expect them to be applying for a more senior position. At the SEC Enforcement positions are (generally speaking) split into staff attorneys who do the investigations and trial attorneys who do the litigations, and getting a trial attorney spot would almost certainly require more experience than a staff attorney job within the same office.