Below 3.0 at T6...need advice on how to proceed Forum

[Anonymous User]

Hey - long time lurker looking for advice.

To be brief - my first year was hard as hell & my performance was poor. I wasn't used to the lack of social interaction within the school / competitive atmosphere, and definitely had confidence issues in general. I also was dealing with my sister becoming a drug addict/rehab issues, but I understand that's no excuse for my performance at all.

Fast forward to this past semester - I got a 3.08 which puts my overall GPA at a 2.9. I went to the CSO last week and she sounded confident that if keep improving and get my grades up again, BL maybe ( with Midlaw being more assured). But they recommended applying to multiple in house positions for this summer. I've applied to over 100 within the past two weeks, but I haven't received a single follow up ( i have good experience within finance as well).

What should I do?

[UVA2B]

Suffice it to say you’re a 2L then?

You’ll need to keep hitting every symplicity advertisement that pops up, and your CSO is right that you should be looking at in-house and possibly unpaid government positions that would signal an interest in a particular practice area. Since you’ll be relying on 3L OCI, you’ll need to start making yourself employable within specific practice areas, which will likely mean something in the corporate/transactional side of the house.

I would push back that mid Law is more assured, but the name of the game for you at this point is firing off as many resumes and cover letters in mass mailing as you can possibly muster. Hit every market you have even tenuous ties, and really play up your ties to each of those markets. You can’t be stingy, and you can’t be picky. Until you lock down something for this summer that helps in getting something for following graduation, this should be your entire focus.

Good luck!

[Anonymous User]

Sans the sister issue, I was exactly the same numerically: T6 with a sub 3.00 after 1L. What was your 1L summer job? Apply like crazy for 2L jobs. It’s very important. Don’t focus on jobs which will ultimately hire you post graduation, look at ones which will be most marketable for your post graduation applications in your 3L year (which you will begin applying to in June-July of your 2L summer).

I had friends in your shoes which ended up with biglaw offers in Sept of their 3Ls but others (myself included) who only got their ultimate jobs after graduation. I’ve seen everything in between.

I agree with the comment above. Apply to everything on symplicity. I would also add to look at “prestigious” government jobs which could help explain why you didn’t work biglaw in your 2L summer.

Overall it will work out, but nothing is guaranteed, you have it put the work in.

[BrainsyK]

In addition to the above, I'd say networking helps. If you get BL, it'll probably be at a non grade selective place so I would start hitting up attorneys to get coffee from those firms in the hopes that they might tell you about spots that open up during 3L recruiting that may not even be posted or that are in specific practice groups that wouldn't want 3Ls unless they specifically indicated interest in that practice group. It's also very important to get your GPA to above a 3.0 though, which I assume is not going to be an issue given how easy the curve is as a 2L.

[Wild Card]

In addition to the above, I'd say networking helps. If you get BL, it'll probably be at a non grade selective place so I would start hitting up attorneys to get coffee from those firms in the hopes that they might tell you about spots that open up during 3L recruiting that may not even be posted or that are in specific practice groups that wouldn't want 3Ls unless they specifically indicated interest in that practice group. It's also very important to get your GPA to above a 3.0 though, which I assume is not going to be an issue given how easy the curve is as a 2L.

As an aside, if the T6 is NYU, then the curve doesn't get easier. Black-letter profs still apply the 1L curve and the seminar median is a B+.

[Anonymous User]

Just want to throw it out there that for big law/biggish law, in addition to NYC, you should be targeting non-NYC markets to which you have significant ties. The "letter grades > everything else" approach to hiring is a little less prevalent in regional markets where a person's ties have bearing on their appeal.

More importantly, don't get down on yourself or feel inadequate because of your grades, which is an easy trap to fall into. Just keep working hard and stay confident that you're capable of being a good lawyer. Embrace the truth that law school exams are more than a little ridiculous.

[Anonymous User]

I was below 3.0 at a top 10 c/o 2013. It was hell getting a job. Frankly, technically I didn't get one after graduation. Ended up doing a school funded fellowship for a government job.

That being said: I echo the sentiments about looking for fed government internships. Even ones that don't necessarily lead to full time offers. Aim for agencies that are less popular among top law grads like HUD and the USPS. Maybe the EPA. Interning at those type of places and showing a genuine interest for what they do can lead to you applying as a recent grad and getting hired over people with "superior" credentials. I put quotes around superior because you need to remember that you're going to graduate from a top 6 school. Not beating out a ton of ivy league, valedictorian, salutorian, highly driven type A individuals does not mean you aren't qualified to be a lawyer--or that you won't be a good lawyer. But grades matter and it is what it is.

Also, if you are from a non NYC,DC, Cali market that has a decent amount of legal jobs, target that market hard (as someone else already suggested). I'd also do everything you can to find alums of your top 6 in that market. Finally, try to do a clinic or an externship with a federal agency during your 3L year. That can also go a long way. Good luck!

[Anonymous User]

I was at a T10 and in a similar situation, but for me the shit hit the fan at the very end of my 2L year (long story). So you have a leg up on me. I agree with the other advice in this thread. I would add that you should consider the possibility of clerking after you graduate, and maybe even externing for a judge your 3L year. It will be a long shot with your grades, but if you apply broadly you may have a shot in a flyover district or a non-art III or state court judge. If you also have experience in chambers as an extern, you application for a clerkship will be stronger.

Please don't feel down on yourself. This happens all the time. People who can't find jobs tend to feel shame and not talk about it, so it can be really isolating. In retrospect, I wish that I had talked more to OCS and maybe found a therapist. You go to a great school and you've worked hard to get there and survive there. This is absolutely not a reflection of who you are or your value as a person. Law school exams are ridiculous and, honestly, have very little relevance to your capacity to be a good lawyer.

[Anonymous User]

I went to a T6, exact same grades as you. I got 5 callbacks from law firms (all v100), and got offers from 4 of them. I summered at a v30. I went straight through from college to law school. I just did really well during interviews. I was class of 2014.

Point is: you can do it.

[Anonymous User]

I went to a T6, exact same grades as you. I got 5 callbacks from law firms (all v100), and got offers from 4 of them. I summered at a v30. I went straight through from college to law school. I just did really well during interviews. I was class of 2014.

Point is: you can do it.

I'm with you - but how exactly did you do it?

[albanach]

I was below 3.0 at a top 10 c/o 2013. It was hell getting a job. Frankly, technically I didn't get one after graduation. Ended up doing a school funded fellowship for a government job.

OP should also establish if their school offers fellowships. Not that this should be the goal right now, but it's good to know what the fallback is. If fellowships are offered, can they be used to clerk? That could open up clerkships that OPs grades wouldn't typically allow for, and I don't think there's any need for the resume to make obvious the clerkship was school funded.

[nixy]

Actually a lot (well, some?) schools require people doing clerkships on school fellowships to indicate that it’s school-funded. (I think it’s absolutely still worth doing if you don’t have a permanent job and can wrangle it, though. If you can reach out to a federal judge through whatever connections you can find, I don’t think they’ll turn down free help. If nothing else, it gives you a year to network and keep looking.)

[wishywashy]

Hey - long time lurker looking for advice.

To be brief - my first year was hard as hell & my performance was poor. I wasn't used to the lack of social interaction within the school / competitive atmosphere, and definitely had confidence issues in general. I also was dealing with my sister becoming a drug addict/rehab issues, but I understand that's no excuse for my performance at all.

Fast forward to this past semester - I got a 3.08 which puts my overall GPA at a 2.9. I went to the CSO last week and she sounded confident that if keep improving and get my grades up again, BL maybe ( with Midlaw being more assured). But they recommended applying to multiple in house positions for this summer. I've applied to over 100 within the past two weeks, but I haven't received a single follow up ( i have good experience within finance as well).

What should I do?

Do you have any Texas ties? Texas big law, especially Houston, might work (they need bodies I hear). Also, Texas midlaw.

Best of luck OP (FWIW, I know a few partners at great firms that didn't do so hot 1L but brought it back up by 3L and got good jobs - they made a solid bond with a professor or two and leaned on that hard to find jobs).

[QContinuum]

Actually a lot (well, some?) schools require people doing clerkships on school fellowships to indicate that it’s school-funded. (I think it’s absolutely still worth doing if you don’t have a permanent job and can wrangle it, though. If you can reach out to a federal judge through whatever connections you can find, I don’t think they’ll turn down free help. If nothing else, it gives you a year to network and keep looking.)

Even still, though, an A3 clerkship would look a heck of a lot better than, well, unemployment.

Do these folks actually have to list the clerkship as "school-funded" on firm bios and such going forward? I don't think I've ever come across any public bio listing a post-graduation clerkship as "school-funded." What's the rationale for requiring this? If the worry is that otherwise A3 clerkships would be "devalued," I'm not sure that's legitimate. Even if every law school started offering an unlimited number of these fellowships, I don't think federal judges would jump to take on hordes of below-median T4 clerks.

[nixy]

Actually a lot (well, some?) schools require people doing clerkships on school fellowships to indicate that it’s school-funded. (I think it’s absolutely still worth doing if you don’t have a permanent job and can wrangle it, though. If you can reach out to a federal judge through whatever connections you can find, I don’t think they’ll turn down free help. If nothing else, it gives you a year to network and keep looking.)

Even still, though, an A3 clerkship would look a heck of a lot better than, well, unemployment.

Do these folks actually have to list the clerkship as "school-funded" on firm bios and such going forward? I don't think I've ever come across any public bio listing a post-graduation clerkship as "school-funded." What's the rationale for requiring this? If the worry is that otherwise A3 clerkships would be "devalued," I'm not sure that's legitimate. Even if every law school started offering an unlimited number of these fellowships, I don't think federal judges would jump to take on hordes of below-median T4 clerks.

Oh, I absolutely agree it's worth doing, especially over unemployment.

I haven't heard that you have to post "school-funded" on your firm bio, just on your resume, and I have no idea about the terms/conditions - like whether the requirement is forever, or what - I don't have personal experience of this, just have heard of it happening. I suppose the rationale is to show that you didn't go through the same competitive application process as other clerks, although I don't really agree with that (it's not like subsequent employers won't see the person's grades when they apply so they're not going to be "fooled" into thinking the person has qualifications that they don't, and it's also not like judges never hire people with lower grades for a variety of reasons).

I actually think plenty of federal judges would happily take T14 grads as free clerks, regardless of grades, though I don't know how far down the rankings that would apply (I also don't think lots of lower-than T14 schools have the money to fund any large number of fellowships).

[Untargeted]

Long-time lurker, but after seeing this post going on I had to post as I could relate...

First - I'm going to assume you're at Columbia or NYU, as I know Chicago uses the number from 160 and up to denote GPA, and I have seen anybody convert it in my experience. And again ( I may be off)

Columbia - I'd suggest you make an appointment with their Dean - (I believe it's Dean Ricardo?). I don't know much, but I have friends who went there and they've said their CSO is usually on top of it

NYU- I would contact Dean Dorzback right away. She's incredibly helpful to those who really make an effort and work for it, and she's really well connected (some heads of HR at firms have come from the NYU CSO that she hired)

2) Focus on grades
Youalmost HAVE to get your GPA over a 3.0 this semester if you want any chance at BL. I don't think this thread has emphasized how important this is - because the fact of the matter is that people from both Columbia and NYU get BL at below 3.0, and you didn't, so banking on that again is the very definition of insanity. I know some kids from my graduating who were below and are miserable/very unhappy with their careers as of now. But I had one friend who was in your position and brought it up, and he did well with 3L OCI.

I'd advise you to skip all bar reviews remaining, and really focus from here on out with schoolwork. The advantage of both schools is that with a 3.0+ GPA and some hustle ( I'm not even saying a lot) - you'll get decent opportunities. But the fact of the matter is that this semester is really CRUNCHTIME (i know it's corny to capitalize, but I have to drive it home) for you. You're right on the cusp and a good semester here (judging by last semester I'm assuming you got at least 1 B+) if critical. Without saying too much, and people are impressed/more forgiving than you think of underperformance if one improves.

TLDR- If you can still snag a SA job (I know of one smaller firm that was still doing interviews right now) then great. If not, don't fret, and work with your respective CSO and take the best thing available. To be honest - whether's it's in house or not - isn't significant for you because your GPA is what people are really going to use to test your competence and it's frankly quite poor. There is no story in the world that you're going to tell that will make people think you selected a particular job over a SA once they see your transcript, so you really need to display improvement.

Again - this is if you truly want BigLaw. If not, then disregard.

[QContinuum]

I haven't heard that you have to post "school-funded" on your firm bio, just on your resume, and I have no idea about the terms/conditions - like whether the requirement is forever, or what - I don't have personal experience of this, just have heard of it happening. I suppose the rationale is to show that you didn't go through the same competitive application process as other clerks, although I don't really agree with that (it's not like subsequent employers won't see the person's grades when they apply so they're not going to be "fooled" into thinking the person has qualifications that they don't, and it's also not like judges never hire people with lower grades for a variety of reasons).

I actually think plenty of federal judges would happily take T14 grads as free clerks, regardless of grades, though I don't know how far down the rankings that would apply (I also don't think lots of lower-than T14 schools have the money to fund any large number of fellowships).

Agreed - it's why I said below-median T4 grads, not below-median T14 grads.

I also think T14 grads wouldn't get too much of an advantage from clerking (at least at the district court level). While anecdotal, we've repeatedly seen here on TLS that folks generally face similar BigLaw prospects out of a district court clerkship as they had prior to the clerkship (excepting maybe a few specific judges in a few specific districts).

Again - this is if you truly want BigLaw. If not, then disregard.

Even if they don't want BigLaw, they should still do everything it takes to drag their GPA above 3.0. There are many jobs - including less-competitive gov jobs that ordinarily would love to snag a T13 grad - that have a hard 3.0 GPA floor, and even those that don't have a hard 3.0 floor often have a "soft" 3.0 floor. A 3.0 and up at CN (as noted, Chicago has a weird grading system, so it doesn't apply to Chi) will do fine. Anything below 3.0 gets into dicey territory. So long as OP still has a chance to get above 3.0, they should do everything they can to make that happen.

[Untargeted]

I also think T14 grads wouldn't get too much of an advantage from clerking (at least at the district court level). While anecdotal, we've repeatedly seen here on TLS that folks generally face similar BigLaw prospects out of a district court clerkship as they had prior to the clerkship (excepting maybe a few specific judges in a few specific districts).

Again - this is if you truly want BigLaw. If not, then disregard.

Even if they don't want BigLaw, they should still do everything it takes to drag their GPA above 3.0. There are many jobs - including less-competitive gov jobs that ordinarily would love to snag a T13 grad - that have a hard 3.0 GPA floor, and even those that don't have a hard 3.0 floor often have a "soft" 3.0 floor. A 3.0 and up at CN (as noted, Chicago has a weird grading system, so it doesn't apply to Chi) will do fine. Anything below 3.0 gets into dicey territory. So long as OP still has a chance to get above 3.0, they should do everything they can to make that happen.

I 100% agree. But I'm pushing it because even with a 3.0, I don't know how competitive OP will be in NYC. I'm hearing/witnessing a couple of firms take the HYS kids they can get, then going with a hard GPA floor and not caving, and they're opening to taking more non-T14 SAs, so OP is in for it.
I just want to stress to OP that if they truly are seeking BigLaw, they can get it only with the GPA increase (networking won't help) and that they need to work with the CSO and be open-minded in terms of area and practice.

[Anonymous User]

Hey - long time lurker looking for advice.

To be brief - my first year was hard as hell & my performance was poor. I wasn't used to the lack of social interaction within the school / competitive atmosphere, and definitely had confidence issues in general. I also was dealing with my sister becoming a drug addict/rehab issues, but I understand that's no excuse for my performance at all.

Fast forward to this past semester - I got a 3.08 which puts my overall GPA at a 2.9. I went to the CSO last week and she sounded confident that if keep improving and get my grades up again, BL maybe ( with Midlaw being more assured). But they recommended applying to multiple in house positions for this summer. I've applied to over 100 within the past two weeks, but I haven't received a single follow up ( i have good experience within finance as well).

What should I do?

Keep trying, but don't make the rejection or over-analyzing "why?" too central a focus. Rejection is just part of the game... for most 1Ls. Focus on what you learned 1L and what you can do to improve on 2L. Life goes on. It goes on better if you regroup and spend more time on self-care and focusing on your potential. Plenty of folks that wanted big law landed it after 2L from my school. Most of those who did surprised everyone because you never would have known that they were confidently putting all the pieces together and has a sense of purpose about 2L. They didn't commiserate with the self-pity party. Or the idea that it was 1L or bust gossip get to them. They just suddenly had something great lined up for 2L summer - through either networking events or alum, career center connections, and 2L on grounds for some of them.

I'm not sure how they did it. I was on a public interest track. But I definitely know quite a few who did land big law, or something reputable enough to allow them to end up in big law after we graduated, after striking out 1L. Talk to the career center about options. Do you know anyone in an advisor role that is a student and willing to help you figure out a gameplan? They may know some people who overcame 1L and are willing to give you tips. Is there an alum networking database? Just like a lot of us here on TLS, alums are surprisingly willing to impart their advice. And career centers sometimes known who the alums are that made it, but once were in your shoes... so there is that too.

Just dont let it get to you. Your focus, of you have struck out, should be to invest your time wisely towards improving your GPA so that you at least graduate T6 and have the best grades you can put together. I can't think of anyone I graduated with who didnt land something decent following graduation if they wanted to, and can think of quite a few who landed way better than expected and had it lined up on their way out. Those who did the best at overcoming a bad 1L put their energy and focus towards where it needed to be when it needed to be. They did not let 1L define them.

And at the end of the day, you are T6. I know it seems like the end of the world, but you are still in the law school bubble... dealing with all the posturing and douche bag nonsense that comes from a bunch of scared, insecure, type As competing with each other. The reality is way better than you think it is. Keep your chin up my friend! Trust me! Time to refocus on a positive game plan, which does not involve worrying about what you cannot change about your first year performance.

[nixy]

I also think T14 grads wouldn't get too much of an advantage from clerking (at least at the district court level). While anecdotal, we've repeatedly seen here on TLS that folks generally face similar BigLaw prospects out of a district court clerkship as they had prior to the clerkship (excepting maybe a few specific judges in a few specific districts).

I think this is correct, but underestimates the value of a year to network and apply. I’ve known (non-T14) people without biglaw lined up to use their year to hustle and network and land it at the end (they joined bar associations/inns of court, volunteered as possible with their clerkship, met with alumni and anyone who’d meet with them, etc.). It’s not the qualification of clerking that helped, but the time to hustle. Certainly if the OP/anyone can get a permanent job for after graduation that is the way to go, but a school-funded clerkship is totally worthwhile for someone who hasn’t found anything else, as a respectable position that puts your deadline for entering biglaw on pause (which is all sort of premature for the OP at this point, admittedly).

[Anonymous User]

I know someone at t-14 with sub 3.0 and only 1 A- on the entire transcript. He constantly talked to every professor after class during 2L year and eventually leaned on one to get a federal trade court (?) clerkship for 2L summer that he eventually translated into a mid-biggish law paying close to market that specialized in the area.

You have to network and be shameless. Grades are just the easiest way to show prospective employers you can do the work. If you don’t have that, you need people to vouch for you and that means networking. I have heard from people adjunct professors teaching small classes tend to be very willing to help but YMMV.

Bar associations are a bit tough honestly if you aren’t already good at networking but there are always a couple people (the association’s outreach or what not) who are particularly eager to help out. I don’t know a lot of success stories through this route. They exist but remember some people have been going to bar association events before they got in law school. It’s crazy.

[Anonymous User]

I also think T14 grads wouldn't get too much of an advantage from clerking (at least at the district court level). While anecdotal, we've repeatedly seen here on TLS that folks generally face similar BigLaw prospects out of a district court clerkship as they had prior to the clerkship (excepting maybe a few specific judges in a few specific districts).

Again - this is if you truly want BigLaw. If not, then disregard.

Even if they don't want BigLaw, they should still do everything it takes to drag their GPA above 3.0. There are many jobs - including less-competitive gov jobs that ordinarily would love to snag a T13 grad - that have a hard 3.0 GPA floor, and even those that don't have a hard 3.0 floor often have a "soft" 3.0 floor. A 3.0 and up at CN (as noted, Chicago has a weird grading system, so it doesn't apply to Chi) will do fine. Anything below 3.0 gets into dicey territory. So long as OP still has a chance to get above 3.0, they should do everything they can to make that happen.

I 100% agree. But I'm pushing it because even with a 3.0, I don't know how competitive OP will be in NYC. I'm hearing/witnessing a couple of firms take the HYS kids they can get, then going with a hard GPA floor and not caving, and they're opening to taking more non-T14 SAs, so OP is in for it.
I just want to stress to OP that if they truly are seeking BigLaw, they can get it only with the GPA increase (networking won't help) and that they need to work with the CSO and be open-minded in terms of area and practice.

Hey OP, I had no A/A-, 3.0 from a mid T14, and snagged 8 offers out of 10 CBs. I did it by networking my ass off with the heads of recruiting from V10-100, asking to talk to everyone and anyone, and just making sure the people liked me and would most likely throw in a word to HR to bring me in for an interview. Granted this mostly happened during OCI but I did get 3 CBs from cold emailing/cold calls which translated to an additional 3 offers. Just wanted to say it is possible, you just have to want it enough. The above the 3.0 mark is important if your school actually gives a GPA but ultimately at a T6 grades do not sink you completely.

[Anonymous User]

I'm at a nationally mediocre ranked but fairly well thought of law school regionally (think 40-60 ranking). My grades didn't even get me in the top quarter, and I landed a biglaw SA at a v10 through a ridiculous amount of networking. During every lunch hour 1L summer I was calling alum & meeting for coffees, etc. Just saying, you can do it!!! There are so many people who "want" biglaw jobs but aren't actually willing to put in the work to make it happen. Keep working OP and do everything you can to get the job you want and rightfully deserve.

[QContinuum]

I'm at a nationally mediocre ranked but fairly well thought of law school regionally (think 40-60 ranking). My grades didn't even get me in the top quarter, and I landed a biglaw SA at a v10 through a ridiculous amount of networking. During every lunch hour 1L summer I was calling alum & meeting for coffees, etc. Just saying, you can do it!!! There are so many people who "want" biglaw jobs but aren't actually willing to put in the work to make it happen. Keep working OP and do everything you can to get the job you want and rightfully deserve.

Agree 100% with the hit-the-pavement advice - and congrats to you on landing your V10 SA! - but just to be clear, OP should not be targeting/focusing on grade-selective firms at this point (and most, though not all, of the V10/V20 - and some firms outside the V20 - are grade-selective).