Does being a tax junior suck this much everywhere? Forum

[Anonymous User]

I am a tax first year at a v10. Since I started, I've billed over 200 hrs every month (with the exception of the first month, when I billed 110 despite a bunch of mandatory training). I get that tax has a steep learning curve, and stuff is going to take me a lot longer to do, but are tax people everywhere pulling these kinds of hours consistently? My mid-levels and seniors are also billing 200+ every month, and their response is pretty much "you get used to it." I'm having a hard time coping with the hours and am thinking about lateraling, but I am afraid that it's going to be the same everywhere else. If it really is like this, I'm thinking about moving to a different practice area, because I can't see myself billing 200+ every month for a few years before I can GTFO.

[Anonymous User]

200+ doesn't seem like a crazy bad month for a v10....I assume you're looking at about 2500 for the year, which I agree isn't great, but I don't think it's anything crazy for a v10, especially if you're in NY.

Maybe think about getting through 2 years learning tax at your v10 to climb the steep learning curve, and try to lateral to somewhere where hours hover around 2000 for the year. If you got 2 years under your belt, I'm sure you'd be a pretty desirable candidate for most of the rest of the v100. But, if those hours are really already getting to you, you may not be cutout for biglaw and maybe you should just start looking to go in-house ASAP. Even billing ~2000/year, you're going to have plenty of 200+ hour months.

[Anonymous User]

Is it really that common for tax? In my (limited) experience, my hours have been harder than my classmates'. I don't have easy diligence hours, for instance.

[Anonymous User]

Those hours probably aren't necessarily high for a NY V10 but my hours as a tax associate in at V50 in secondary market are closer to 2000-2100 per year. I agree with the above that (in my opinion) tax hours are "harder" than an hour in corp or lit. Both in terms of mental effort and in terms of how much work you need to generate hours.

[Anonymous User]

200 is normal for any practice group. There isn’t as much mindless paper pushing in tax that makes each hour harder than corporate groups, but like someone said above you may not be cut out for biglaw. Plenty of corp people in my V50 work 300+ hours on a consistent basis.

[Anonymous User]

To clarify: billing 200 is fine. My concern is billing 200+ in perpetuity with no end in sight.

[2013]

To clarify: billing 200 is fine. My concern is billing 200+ in perpetuity with no end in sight.

I’m just very confused by this. You’re at a v10. It’s almost a given that you’ll be billing 2400+ hours at some of the top firms.

[Anonymous User]

So it's not like this everywhere, but just at "top firms"? That's actually a huge relief.

[Wild Card]

To clarify: billing 200 is fine. My concern is billing 200+ in perpetuity with no end in sight.

I’m just very confused by this. You’re at a v10. It’s almost a given that you’ll be billing 2400+ hours at some of the top firms.

He probably thought tax would be easy street wherever he went.

[Anonymous User]

Might also be because of the TCJA and the new prop/final regs being issued for 163j, GILTI, BEAT, 199A, the new partnership audit rules, etc. I’ve had at least 40 to 60 hours of nonbillable work per month in the past few months due to all the crazy updates. Consider yourself lucky being able to bill all your time cause for me all these hours are eating into the bonus.

[papermateflair]

I think it depends on your specific tax sub-practice, as well as how your group is staffed - I've never done two 200+ hour months in a row, but I also haven't worked for a V10. One of the struggles with being a tax junior is that you have to learn SO many rules for your specialty, and it can feel like you're drowning even if you aren't billing 200+ a month. You could also try and get a feel for what the hours are like in other tax specialty groups - I know at my firm that the difference in hours across specialty groups is huge (like, 160 in mine to 200 in others). If you show interest in another tax specialty group, you may be able to take on more and more work from them until you get officially moved to their group. That's hard to do if you're billing 200 a month, obviously, but it may be easier than lateraling to try and find a less crushing group.

In any case, there's usually a fair amount of demand for junior tax associates, and should be able to lateral after a year or two - make sure to take vacations when you can.

[Anonymous User]

Might also be because of the TCJA and the new prop/final regs being issued for 163j, GILTI, BEAT, 199A, the new partnership audit rules, etc. I’ve had at least 40 to 60 hours of nonbillable work per month in the past few months due to all the crazy updates. Consider yourself lucky being able to bill all your time cause for me all these hours are eating into the bonus.

My firm gives up to 50 hours billable credit for client updates. But after that, yeah, it sucks.

[Anonymous User]

Op --- does your group do primarily deal support or planning for corporations? My understanding is that deal support will necessarily be more unpredictable and intense than planning, which may relate to the aspect of choosing a tax sub-specialty with smoother hours as the poster above referenced. I'd be curious to hear experiences from other posters, either in other tax sub-specialty practice groups (and what exact tax sub-specialties exist) as well as those billing 200+ per month in groups like litigation, healthcare, and other areas where the hours may be more steady and perhaps more sustainable.

[Anonymous User]

FWIW, I've been a corporate associate at two AmLaw 50 firms on Cravath scale and have never billed more than 2200 in a year and am almost always between 2000-2100. Most people don't actually bill 2400 or whatever.

[kaiser]

FWIW, I've been a corporate associate at two AmLaw 50 firms on Cravath scale and have never billed more than 2200 in a year and am almost always between 2000-2100. Most people don't actually bill 2400 or whatever.

Having worked in 2 biglaw firms, I second this. I feel like anyone who says that V10 folks bill 2400 consistently are overstating things (and I would venture a guess that anyone who says that likely hasn't started working yet).

[5ky]

Plenty of corp people in my V50 work 300+ hours on a consistent basis.

uh huh

[Anonymous User]

Color me skeptical, but only a handful of lawyers at my megafirm bill 2800 a year, so I'm having a hard time believing plenty of corporate lawyers bill 300+ on the regular.

[Anonymous User]

Op here: I do 100% deal support. It's a pretty big part of what makes my job so stressful.

[Anonymous User]

OP: it really depends on the culture of your group and the nature of the work. If you only do deal support, then your tax partners’ paycheck comes from corporate and thus you’ll be subject to corporate timelines (which means everything needs to be done ASAP). If you join a tax group that does litigation or tax planning, the hours would be very different. You might still bill over 200+ but the hours won’t be as stressful.

[nealric]

I didn't find being a tax junior to be that bad. Hours weren't materially different from corporate, but they were more consistent and I was much less likely to be waiting around for work until the afternoon. Even on deal work, I found tax to be less stressful, as most tax issues are resolved much earlier in the deal process when things were less hectic.

[papermateflair]

Op here: I do 100% deal support. It's a pretty big part of what makes my job so stressful.

That makes sense - deal support IS stressful. In particular, corporate associates are working on 2 or 3 deals at once (maybe), while a tax specialist could be working on literally every deal that's happening at the firm (I once had 20 deals happening at once), and multiple deals could blow up at once. Are you able to get your assistant or a paralegal to help with anything, like printing documents etc.? For what it's worth, you should know that as you get better at the deals, they'll take less time - and as you build your "brand" within the firm, you'll be able to push back on certain things (within reason).

Also, is there a way to get some experience doing tax planning/counseling? I can't imagine trying to learn all the tax rules just in the deal context, so not sure if that's part of the issue.

[Anonymous User]

Unfortunately, my group is small and does 100% deal support. I would need to move offices/firms if I wanted to get more varied experience.

Thanks for the encouraging words. It sounds like it could be better elsewhere.

[Anonymous User]

What's the difference between tax planning and deal support work? I had always thought deal support is part of tax planning.

[nealric]

What's the difference between tax planning and deal support work? I had always thought deal support is part of tax planning.

Deal support is a form of planning, but the posters are talking about planning work that is independent of a pending deal. For example, re-configuring a company's foreign holding structure in the wake of tax reform. Typically, there isn't a hard deadline for such work and its driven by the tax organisation (rather than a deal team).

[papermateflair]

What's the difference between tax planning and deal support work? I had always thought deal support is part of tax planning.

Deal support is a form of planning, but the posters are talking about planning work that is independent of a pending deal. For example, re-configuring a company's foreign holding structure in the wake of tax reform. Typically, there isn't a hard deadline for such work and its driven by the tax organisation (rather than a deal team).

Exactly - looking around the halls at the other tax associates in my office, only 3 or 4 of us are actually involved in M&A on a regular basis. Our tax group does a lot of tax planning that isn't related to deal work, and lots of associates don't work on deals at all.