why aren't more law students interested in L&E? Forum

[Anonymous User]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you're interested in lit, it seems like L&E has the best of both worlds. You get to do mostly litigation and you still end up with strong exit options (comparable to corp). Why aren't more law students interested in L&E? Is it because it's perceived to be less prestigious / you have to be the "bad guy"? Also, how hard is it to transition to L&E after you start in general lit?

[Johnnybgoode92]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you're interested in lit, it seems like L&E has the best of both worlds. You get to do mostly litigation and you still end up with strong exit options (comparable to corp). Why aren't more law students interested in L&E? Is it because it's perceived to be less prestigious / you have to be the "bad guy"? Also, how hard is it to transition to L&E after you start in general lit?

What's l n' e?

[nixy]

1) why do you think students aren’t interested in this?

2) why isn’t anyone interested in anything? Maybe, like you suggested, they think L&E is less prestigious. Or they are pro-employees. Or they think employment disputes are boring. Or they’re hard core lit and don’t want to do the client advising on things like employee handbooks and policies and whatnot. Or they like finance/economics better. Or find criminal law more interesting.

I guess I’m not convinced it’s actually less popular, but that may be because it wasn’t at my school.

[LaLiLuLeLo]

1. Most jobs are on the defense side and are therefore relatively low stakes, high volume, fee capped cases because it’s basically insurance defense. Even the bigger firms are essentially just mills that churn. Plaintiff’s side is a lot more risky and lower pay to start out of law school and quite a few years after.

2. Many don’t see L&E as offering many novel cases. A big player like Littler will get to do some cool cases, like NFL player union disputes, but that’s very rare.

3. Everyone’s gunning for biglaw and biglaw doesn’t really do as much L&E.

I was interested in doing plaintiff’s work when I was in law school but realized I would be making pretty bad money until I established myself and potentially opened my own shop, which I was not interested in at all.

[kaiser]

I am a 6th year biglaw associate in L&E and I can think of a few reasons that many on a forum like this, and at the top schools generally, may not be interested in L&E:

1. Many law students tell me they don't really know what an L&E lawyer does. They have a general conception of employment law, but don't know what an L&E lawyer actually does on a day-to-day basis

2. On its face, its fairly simple stuff (though I think of it like chess, in that it is easy to grasp the basics, but very hard to master the nooks and crannies). It doesn't have that veneer of prestige that the more "heady" practices have. To me, that is one of the core appeals, but to some, that is a negative factor

3. The issues and cases do tend to be fairly similar and somewhat routine. These cases have some of the most fun, crazy facts you will come across in biglaw, but the core issues are usually fairly predictable.

4. Very few biglaw firms still do L&E work. For certain firms like Proskauer, Morgan Lewis, Paul Hastings, etc., L&E is still very much a big priority. But for many of the top firms, L&E is an afterthought. This is largely due to the rate structure. For many biglaw firms, unless its a huge wage & hour class action, its not worth taking. There are only a select few biglaw firms that do L&E, but don't necessary rely on huge class actions.

[sparty99]

I am a 6th year biglaw associate in L&E and I can think of a few reasons that many on a forum like this, and at the top schools generally, may not be interested in L&E:

1. Many law students tell me they don't really know what an L&E lawyer does. They have a general conception of employment law, but don't know what an L&E lawyer actually does on a day-to-day basis

2. On its face, its fairly simple stuff (though I think of it like chess, in that it is easy to grasp the basics, but very hard to master the nooks and crannies). It doesn't have that veneer of prestige that the more "heady" practices have. To me, that is one of the core appeals, but to some, that is a negative factor

3. The issues and cases do tend to be fairly similar and somewhat routine. These cases have some of the most fun, crazy facts you will come across in biglaw, but the core issues are usually fairly predictable.

4. Very few biglaw firms still do L&E work. For certain firms like Proskauer, Morgan Lewis, Paul Hastings, etc., L&E is still very much a big priority. But for many of the top firms, L&E is an afterthought. This is largely due to the rate structure. For many biglaw firms, unless its a huge wage & hour class action, its not worth taking. There are only a select few biglaw firms that do L&E, but don't necessary rely on huge class actions.

What is your salary as a 6th year? I have a lateral offer but its non-employment, but really good. Waiting to hear about an employment practice group job I interviewed at but I am worried it won't be as good as my non-employment group offer.

[kaiser]

I am a 6th year biglaw associate in L&E and I can think of a few reasons that many on a forum like this, and at the top schools generally, may not be interested in L&E:

1. Many law students tell me they don't really know what an L&E lawyer does. They have a general conception of employment law, but don't know what an L&E lawyer actually does on a day-to-day basis

2. On its face, its fairly simple stuff (though I think of it like chess, in that it is easy to grasp the basics, but very hard to master the nooks and crannies). It doesn't have that veneer of prestige that the more "heady" practices have. To me, that is one of the core appeals, but to some, that is a negative factor

3. The issues and cases do tend to be fairly similar and somewhat routine. These cases have some of the most fun, crazy facts you will come across in biglaw, but the core issues are usually fairly predictable.

4. Very few biglaw firms still do L&E work. For certain firms like Proskauer, Morgan Lewis, Paul Hastings, etc., L&E is still very much a big priority. But for many of the top firms, L&E is an afterthought. This is largely due to the rate structure. For many biglaw firms, unless its a huge wage & hour class action, its not worth taking. There are only a select few biglaw firms that do L&E, but don't necessary rely on huge class actions.

What is your salary as a 6th year? I have a lateral offer but its non-employment, but really good. Waiting to hear about an employment practice group job I interviewed at but I am worried it won't be as good as my non-employment group offer.

It was $230,000 this past year (my 5th year). We get info on raises in Feb, and I expect it to be $240k for this year. My firm does market rate the first few years and then it tapers off a bit compared to the top vault firms. I'm sure I could make more at certain other places, but I'm really happy with my firm, the work I do, and the people I work with.

[Anonymous User]

Because it’s not considered prestigious and because at a lot of big firms it’s a secondary practice (too high of rates). That said, I’m at one of Jones Day, Morgan Lewis, Proskauer... and here it’s not at all viewed as a secondary practice. I work on big/interesting/newsworthy cases... and get paid market comp. And no one in my group had had trouble exiting (at least to my knowledge).

So no complaints from me... but I got lucky with my firm. I could definitely see how l&e work would suck at a firm where it’s not prioritized (or even at a littler-type firm, where it’s a bit more like a mill).

[Anonymous User]

I'm in biglaw L&E (midlevel). I think, firstly, that most law students don't know much about L&E because it's not discussed much in law school (i.e., there aren't many schools offering L&E classes, you don't read many employment-based judicial opinions in school, etc.). Second, most law students (at least when I was doing OCI) weren't particularly focused on a specific practice group - they were broadly either litigation or corporate focused.

I do think L&E is a great practice area in the right firm. I will concede the above posters' points that the practice may be a loss leader at some firms. However, L&E has great exit options as far as litigation goes. Also, it is interesting and can be novel -- especially in the class action context. I also think the notion that it's all insurance defense work is way overblown. My firm doesn't do any ID, so there's that...

[nixy]

I don’t think it’s really true that schools don’t offer L&E classes - my school offered employment, employment discrimination, and labor law all as stand alone classes. Also I think there was a fair amount of relevant stuff the in the civil rights class I took. Admittedly there was no ERISA class. What other kinds of relevant classes am I missing?

[kaiser]

I don’t think it’s really true that schools don’t offer L&E classes - my school offered employment, employment discrimination, and labor law all as stand alone classes. Also I think there was a fair amount of relevant stuff the in the civil rights class I took. Admittedly there was no ERISA class. What other kinds of relevant classes am I missing?

I also don't think its true that schools don't offer L&E classes. Seems like every school has a basic employment law and likely a basic labor law class. I think the issue is more that law students don't know how this translates into actual practice because law students tend to think in a litigation/corporate dichotomy.

L&E is different from other groups in that respect. Yes, there is quite a bit of litigation involved, but it also has a distinct counseling side. L&E lawyers counsel employers on, for example, creating vacation policies, advising them through separations, drafting employment agreements, advising when spontaneous strikes occur, dealing with employees who possess trade secrets, etc. You tend to do more and more counseling as you become more senior, but even juniors can get involved. For example, even a junior can pick up an employee handbook, review it, and provide comments to a client (of course, with some supervision from a partner or senior associate). And it sets you up wonderfully for in-house opportunities since every company needs employment counsel.

[Anonymous User]

I don’t think it’s really true that schools don’t offer L&E classes - my school offered employment, employment discrimination, and labor law all as stand alone classes. Also I think there was a fair amount of relevant stuff the in the civil rights class I took. Admittedly there was no ERISA class. What other kinds of relevant classes am I missing?

I also don't think its true that schools don't offer L&E classes. Seems like every school has a basic employment law and likely a basic labor law class. I think the issue is more that law students don't know how this translates into actual practice because law students tend to think in a litigation/corporate dichotomy.

L&E is different from other groups in that respect. Yes, there is quite a bit of litigation involved, but it also has a distinct counseling side. L&E lawyers counsel employers on, for example, creating vacation policies, advising them through separations, drafting employment agreements, advising when spontaneous strikes occur, dealing with employees who possess trade secrets, etc. You tend to do more and more counseling as you become more senior, but even juniors can get involved. For example, even a junior can pick up an employee handbook, review it, and provide comments to a client (of course, with some supervision from a partner or senior associate). And it sets you up wonderfully for in-house opportunities since every company needs employment counsel.

One of the anons above. Definitely agree that there is a distinct counseling aspect. However at my firm, I’d estimate that this amounts to less than 10% of billable hours (at least in my office). And probably closer to 5%. Maybe another 10-20% (max) is investigation work. the remaining 70+% of the work is straight litigation (and obviously this varies partner to partner, associate to associate).

[RedPurpleBlue]

I think there is also another really important distinction to be made. For practical matters, there really is no such thing as L&E. The VAST majority of practitioners I see are pretty much pure E. There are much few L attorneys as firms from big law to smaller shops, and I think that's just a reflection of shrinking unionization across the country do to right-to-work laws and various other legal and political forces. If you want to go union side and do labor law it is incredibly hard to get hired too. Personally, I took labor law and employment discrimination at my school. I absolutely loved labor law, and I mean loved it. I absolutely hated employment discrimination. When it came to finding jobs through OCI, it was just so much harder to find groups with more than a single partner doing labor work unless I went down to littler, ogletree, etc, and I didn't want to do that at the beginning of my career for salary/debt reasons. At traditional big law firms, I had heard too many "horror" stories of graduates from my T14 and other schools trying to do labor work and ending up on like 15% labor and 85% employment issues, and I really did not want that. In the end, I just chose a different practice area that I really liked but didn't perhaps love.

The short of all of this is that there are probably a good few of us who really love labor law but there just aren't the same kind of opportunities out there as there are on the employment side, sadly, so we opt for a different path.

[TTTMadeit2019]

I'm an in-house L&E attorney. The other benefit of L&E is that you do have a lot of exit options--you can transition to HR, employee relations, or investigations and these roles all tend to pay well at tech companies.

[NotASpecialSnowflake]

I'm an in-house L&E attorney. The other benefit of L&E is that you do have a lot of exit options--you can transition to HR, employee relations, or investigations and these roles all tend to pay well at tech companies

Could you talk more about exit options? (salary, how many years of experience you need, how to build networking relationships in the area, how much of the job is legal work)


If you’d prefer to talk via PM, feel free to message me there.