Re: How to get away from a screamer partner Forum

[foregetaboutdre]

Do you have an evaluation soon? The biggest concern is this partner sinking you/being shitty in evaluations if he isn't *that* terrible despite the yelling. If his yelling is really bad, I'd either (1) Try not to solicit much work from him if possible; or (2) switch groups.

Sometimes "paying your dues" can sometimes work out with a screamer and they really start to like you after a brief hazing period. Not saying that is at all the right thing to do, but it happens.

[2013]

Option 1:

You’re in an office with a partner that already seems to dislike you. Also, you’ve done yourself no favors by having spelling mistakes in emails to that partner on numerous occasions, it seems.

Also, you said you like the practice area, so it makes no sense to move to a different practice group you may not like without testing the market first.

It’s probably going to be difficult to lateral as a stub year, especially in January when first and second years will realistically be competing for the same or similar roles. However, I’ve seen people do it before, so you should definitely try.

If, after a few months, you can’t lateral, you should probably try to switch out of your team.

Question: have you considered moving to another office of your firm that has your practice? That may be your quickest/best option.

[Anonymous User]

Op here. I don't think we have evals soon, but I would need to check. The firm has not been very transparent about performance evals for stubs.

I don't want to move because I have personal reasons to be here.

I don't mind putting in my dues and proving myself. It just seems like a fool's errand given this person's reputation.

I'm not sure I'm on the shitlist with this particular partner yet, because I've been told that his person is just a yeller. However, I've also been warned that this person has extremely high standards and has pushed out numerous associates before.

[Npret]

Op here. I don't think we have evals soon, but I would need to check. The firm has not been very transparent about performance evals for stubs.

I don't want to move because I have personal reasons to be here.

I don't mind putting in my dues and proving myself. It just seems like a fool's errand given this person's reputation.

I'm not sure I'm on the shitlist with this particular partner yet, because I've been told that his person is just a yeller. However, I've also been warned that this person has extremely high standards and has pushed out numerous associates before.

I mean you could just ignore the yelling and push hard to get your work to a very high standard too. He may actually be able to teach you a good deal. Pretty much every partner objects to typos, so you can at least work on that.

The partner isn’t going to change and you like the work so you may as well stick it out for as long as you can. Moving to another group - it’s hard to tell how useful that is, unless you are committed to this current firm?

You might be able to lateral sooner than most if you have substantial previous knowledge in your area and you keep working in that group. If you are that unhappy and you have good grades, it doesn’t hurt to start looking around.

[Anonymous User]

So is stuff like this normal? If so, I might look into a career switch.

[QContinuum]

So is stuff like this normal? If so, I might look into a career switch.

It's possible to work in BigLaw without working for a screamer. I've worked for many partners and so far (knock on wood) haven't worked for any screamers (though a few have been very unpleasant to work with). Moreover I haven't heard of my close friends encountering any screamers either. I don't think screamers are that common in modern BigLaw. They were probably more common a few decades ago, and I imagine they might be more common in smaller firms where a single rainmaker might be able to basically write their own rules. I guess your case might fall into the "small firm" exception, even though you're at a big firm, because there are only two partners in your office so it's basically a two-man fiefdom.

[Hutz_and_Goodman]

So is stuff like this normal? If so, I might look into a career switch.

I've worked in NYC big law for 3+ years and have seen this or heard of it at my firm.

[Anonymous User]

So is stuff like this normal? If so, I might look into a career switch.

I've worked in NYC big law for 3+ years and have seen this or heard of it at my firm.

You mean never right? I'm really hoping this is a unique case I can get away from.

[foregetaboutdre]

Also, you're a stub-year in big law. I don't think anyone is going to give a shit about how long it takes you to do stuff, they'll just want it clean. Go ahead and read through those e-mails like three times aloud.

[jbagelboy]

Op here. I don't think we have evals soon, but I would need to check. The firm has not been very transparent about performance evals for stubs.

I don't want to move because I have personal reasons to be here.

I don't mind putting in my dues and proving myself. It just seems like a fool's errand given this person's reputation.

I'm not sure I'm on the shitlist with this particular partner yet, because I've been told that his person is just a yeller. However, I've also been warned that this person has extremely high standards and has pushed out numerous associates before.

I mean you could just ignore the yelling and push hard to get your work to a very high standard too. He may actually be able to teach you a good deal. Pretty much every partner objects to typos, so you can at least work on that.

The partner isn’t going to change and you like the work so you may as well stick it out for as long as you can. Moving to another group - it’s hard to tell how useful that is, unless you are committed to this current firm?

You might be able to lateral sooner than most if you have substantial previous knowledge in your area and you keep working in that group. If you are that unhappy and you have good grades, it doesn’t hurt to start looking around.

Sure partners generally (and rightly) object to typos and sloppiness in submissions to court or opposing counsel, but the OP said this person is going apeshit over internal emails. I’ve never seen a partner lose their cool (or even mention) typos in correspondence within the team/firm, unless it’s a draft of something that’s about to go out and the typos need to be corrected. Taken at face value, the conduct - screaming over a typo in an internal message - is objectively preposterous.

[QContinuum]

Sure partners generally (and rightly) object to typos and sloppiness in submissions to court or opposing counsel, but the OP said this person is going apeshit over internal emails. I’ve never seen a partner lose their cool (or even mention) typos in correspondence within the team/firm, unless it’s a draft of something that’s about to go out and the typos need to be corrected. Taken at face value, the conduct - screaming over a typo in an internal message - is objectively preposterous.

Agree. Even going crazy over client correspondence would be, well, crazy. I can see being very upset over, as you say, any error in a court filing or deal doc or whatnot. But not "friendly" correspondence, let alone internal emails. I don't think I'm typo-prone, but I don't generally proofread routine internal emails (not an efficient use of time) and I'm sure the odd typo has cropped up here and there. I've never had the remotest inkling of anyone even noticing, let alone getting upset. I've seen minor typos in client correspondence and AFAIK it's never even been raised as an issue.

[Aptitude]

So you're this guy's doormat?

I know a lot of people without T-14 degrees or good grades, but they know enough to not let someone walk all over them.

[rustyburger2]

So you're this guy's doormat?

I know a lot of people without T-14 degrees or good grades, but they know enough to not let someone walk all over them.

Please, explain to us exactly how a disposable stub year associate should use their street smarts and bootstraps to take a stand against an equity partner at multi-million dollar institution.

Is it the Dora the Explorer method? Next time OP should wag their finger and say "Screamer no screaming!"

[nixy]

So you're this guy's doormat?

I know a lot of people without T-14 degrees or good grades, but they know enough to not let someone walk all over them.

Please, explain to us exactly how a disposable stub year associate should use their street smarts and bootstraps to take a stand against an equity partner at multi-million dollar institution.

Is it the Dora the Explorer method? Next time OP should wag their finger and say "Screamer no screaming!"

Yeah, this is a good response to a fairly shitty anonymous post.

[Aptitude]

So you're this guy's doormat?

I know a lot of people without T-14 degrees or good grades, but they know enough to not let someone walk all over them.

Please, explain to us exactly how a disposable stub year associate should use their street smarts and bootstraps to take a stand against an equity partner at multi-million dollar institution.

Is it the Dora the Explorer method? Next time OP should wag their finger and say "Screamer no screaming!"

Yeah, this is a good response to a fairly shitty anonymous post.

Oh no he's an equity partner?????????! At a multi-million dollar institution you say?!?? Like more than 1 million multi- million!? Oh. My. Goodness. King Tut and Genghis Khan get out of the way. This guy is an equity partner he says!!!!!! Roll out the red carpet, clear the MGM casino floor!















Thousands of people out there go to work at multi-billion dollar institutions and manage to do it without being doormats.

See, they have this thing called dignity. Ever heard of it

[rustyburger2]

So you're this guy's doormat?

I know a lot of people without T-14 degrees or good grades, but they know enough to not let someone walk all over them.

Please, explain to us exactly how a disposable stub year associate should use their street smarts and bootstraps to take a stand against an equity partner at multi-million dollar institution.

Is it the Dora the Explorer method? Next time OP should wag their finger and say "Screamer no screaming!"

Yeah, this is a good response to a fairly shitty anonymous post.

Thousands of people out there go to work at multi-billion dollar institutions and manage to do it without being doormats.

See, they have this thing called dignity. Ever heard of it

Is dignity code for "not having the misfortune of working for someone with anger issues?"

Otherwise, I'm eager to hear how dignity is gonna solve the situation. Is the Dora method still on the table? Is the trick to wag your finger with your head held extra high?

[Aptitude]

So you're this guy's doormat?

I know a lot of people without T-14 degrees or good grades, but they know enough to not let someone walk all over them.

Please, explain to us exactly how a disposable stub year associate should use their street smarts and bootstraps to take a stand against an equity partner at multi-million dollar institution.

Is it the Dora the Explorer method? Next time OP should wag their finger and say "Screamer no screaming!"

Yeah, this is a good response to a fairly shitty anonymous post.

Thousands of people out there go to work at multi-billion dollar institutions and manage to do it without being doormats.

See, they have this thing called dignity. Ever heard of it

Is dignity code for "not having the misfortune of working for someone with anger issues?"

Otherwise, I'm eager to hear how dignity is gonna solve the situation. Is the Dora method still on the table? Is the trick to wag your finger with your head held extra high?

If you need it explained, then you don't have it.

[Stifling]

Meh. I agree with Rustyburger. Being a stub year myself, it seems pretty hard to take a stand against screaming partner. I guess when you’ve been working for a few years you see a way around it without being too obvious, but I don’t think I have the same street cred just yet.

OP, I’m not here to give you any advice or anecdotes, just here to commiserate with you. Haven’t toddled across a screamer yet, but had the misfortune of working for a passive aggressive partner who assumed I knew more than I did. I got out of it, thankfully with the help of midlevel associate. Perhaps you could ask for advice from a more senior associate?

[nixy]

So you're this guy's doormat?

I know a lot of people without T-14 degrees or good grades, but they know enough to not let someone walk all over them.

Please, explain to us exactly how a disposable stub year associate should use their street smarts and bootstraps to take a stand against an equity partner at multi-million dollar institution.

Is it the Dora the Explorer method? Next time OP should wag their finger and say "Screamer no screaming!"

Yeah, this is a good response to a fairly shitty anonymous post.

Oh no he's an equity partner?????????! At a multi-million dollar institution you say?!?? Like more than 1 million multi- million!? Oh. My. Goodness. King Tut and Genghis Khan get out of the way. This guy is an equity partner he says!!!!!! Roll out the red carpet, clear the MGM casino floor!















Thousands of people out there go to work at multi-billion dollar institutions and manage to do it without being doormats.

See, they have this thing called dignity. Ever heard of it

Help me out, because clearly I lack dignity. Explain specifically what someone who has dignity does to avoid being a doormat in a situation in which someone’s yelling at them for typos. What do you say? What outcome do you get? I’m happy to admit I don’t have dignity, but if you can’t explain it in any more detail I’m going to have to assume you don’t have an answer and are just bullshitting pointlessly.

[cavalier1138]

See, they have this thing called dignity. Ever heard of it

And as we all know, dignity is what keeps people employed.

"Now see here, person who has the power to pretty much unilaterally fire me on a whim, I just won't stand for it! *stamps feet* I am your equal as a human being, and you're going to treat me like it, goshdarnit! Now give me a raise and go make me a sandwich!"

Pro-tip about these forums: If you're going to be an insufferable ass, you at least need to give good advice.

P.S. Are you even practicing? All your posts are vague generalities about how much everyone hates lawyers and how hard engineering is.

[Npret]

OP - I didn’t mean that the partner was behaving in an acceptable manner. I just suggested trying to get something positive out of it.

As I said, you have prior experience in that practice area and that should help you. It’s likely that veryone in your market knows about this partner. You won’t speak badly about him of course, but people will know.

It never hurts to start looking if you’re sure you don’t want to work in the other practice area you mentioned in your firm.

[shock259]

If you need it explained, then you don't have it.

Oh wow - how profound.

..

In any event OP - are there any senior associates in the group that you trust? It is probably helpful to try and find one that can help you navigate this. I didn't see the original post, so not sure of the details.

[Anonymous User]

I worked for a screamer. Switched practice groups to get away. In the next three months, two different associates who "replaced" me working with the screamer each quit. Screamer called me yesterday and very kindly/nicely asked me to come back to his group. It was very fulfilling to tell him no.

[Anonymous User]

Unfortunately, working at a large corporate law firm requires quickly learning how to manage personalities (more so than other types of professional settings IMO). While you need some level of skill to get ahead, learning how to deal with other people's baggage, and getting key people in your corner is part of how associates survive and eventually make partnership. Sometimes it is unbearable. If you feel like you simply cannot learn to manage this type of personality, my suggestion would be to grin and bear it until you are in a position to move on, either to a different group or different law firm. I would try my best to get staffed on other matters. Navigate carefully, however. People can be petty, and absolutely shameless about their pettiness.

For what it is worth, you are not alone. The group for which I currently work has two difficult partners. One, is miserable person outside of work, and uses his position to bully associates. This partner also has a well-developed tendency to throw associates under the bus for his own mess-ups. The second partner expects answers to emails he sends at 3 in the morning, with no warning that you would be expected to be up late working on some random assignment with him. As an aside, and from my take on it, the second partner is of a rare type. Prior to working for a firm, I thought these types of partners were just urban legends concocted by editors from Above the Law. My group lost three associates over the past two years from these types of shenanigans.

Also, I have worked for a couple of screamers before in a prior firm. They can be hard to deal with. One, was not exactly a bad guy, he was just from the old guard. He was fair person for the most part, but would get heated around a deadline. I took an in one ear, out the other approach with him. The second was a total loser. He would scream because he hated his life, and he was a jerk most of the time. Lucky for me, he didn't feed me a ton of work, so it was of no consequence when I'd reject assignments from him.

[Anonymous User]

OP here: Thanks, everyone. Really appreciate the response. I deleted my original post because I thought it wasn't getting much attention and I did not want leave any semi-identifying information on a public forum. I will re-post the details later.

The broad strokes are that I am a stub and work in a very small specialty group at a large firm. I have been getting a lot of work from a partner who is known to be a screamer and have very, very high expectations. This partner has pushed out or burned out a bunch of juniors before me.

I was asking whether I should lateral or go to a different, though related group. I have pretty substantial pre-law school experience in my current area. I have also already reached out to the other group and they would be happy to have me. I like the work my current group does, but the partner's style makes me extremely unhappy.

The only senior associate who I really trust is in the other specialty group that I am considering. He was the one who suggested I try to get more work from his group.