Is this normal at my mid-law firm? Forum

[Anonymous User]

I'm working as a post-bar law clerk for about a month at a mid-size law firm now, with the promotion to an associate upon admission to the bar. The workload is extremely low. The most substantive assignment I received was doing research -- this I could spend all day on and genuinely enjoy it. The majority of the time, however, I've been doing doc review (essentially going through files to see if anything important is worth noting), searching for expert witnesses, etc. I suspect this is because my billing rate is lower so clients would prefer a law clerk that charges about 140$/hr to do the minor stuff. Then a good chunk of the time I have nothing to do, even after approaching each partner in the office and letting them know of my availability and eagerness to assist. There isn't a clear billing requirement, but I've been told by other associates there's an expectation for about 1900; though no one's ever been disciplined for not hitting that, especially if they don't receive enough work from partners.

The other associates seem fairly busy. The one next to my office stays until 8 pm on most nights. Others get research assignments, motions to draft, etc.

So, is this normal? Is this just because I haven't passed the bar yet (CXB results in 4 weeks)? On the one hand, I'm getting paid handsomely for the amount of work I'm doing. But I actually want more work and responsibilities (I'm in the office from 7 to 6 even if I have no urgent work to do, just to be available when work does come my way). I'd take a pay cut to get that. A mentor of mine told me to take on pro bono work if it continues after I'm admitted. Thoughts?

[gregfootball2001]

It's hard to staff someone right away after they arrive. There are numerous threads on here about stub years that are slow. Enjoy the slow times - they may not happen again. Make sure people know that you're there and available, but after that, relax. You'll have plenty of opportunities for growth and responsibility. It doesn't all need to come within the first month.

If you're really bored, write an article. Pro bono can be amazing experience, but right now you don't know about your future availability, and pro bono work can be time-consuming. An article can be picked up and put down at a moment's notice.

[Anonymous User]

OP here.

Thanks for the article suggestion -- i haven't thought of that. Will give that a shot.

[ronaldo09]

Hmm if most associates are very busy it's likely because of staffing issues since you just arrived.

I would say enjoy it while it lasts!

[Anonymous User]

OP here. Thanks. I guess I'll see how the next two months go (which seems like a reasonable amount of time for any "staffing issues" IMO)... if not I think I'll express my concerns to the firm and see what happens from there.

[Tyler_Durden]

I have a different take on this than other replies. I would recommend getting ahead of the ball by continuing to bug the partners at least once a week for work. It's better to come off as slightly annoying than it is to get laid off for having low hours. Unfortunately as an associate, you are not the one who brings in the work, but you take the hit if the work is not there.

In accordance with the other comments, look into all of the activities that your firm would consider as "accountable hours" and brainstorm ways to record those accountable hours. Pro bono work, writing an article with a partner, business development lunches (with potential clients), CLE, and bar association activities are just a few ideas for you to try.

Realize that if you are not billing enough hours to justify your salary, the correct business decision is to lay you off from the firm. It's nothing personal, they may like you very much personally, but a law firm is a business. Decisions will be made from a business perspective, not by what seems "fair." Don't forget that.

[Anonymous User]

I'm at a regional big law firm.

I had very slow times to about 6 months (<100 hours/mo) in and slow times (little over 100 hours/mo) to about 8 months in.

After that, I've not had slow times since.

[Anonymous User]

at my biglaw firm, one of my friends was slow for months after he started. just sitting at the office watching netflix for hours (i was put on several matters right away that were very time consuming)

eventually as december rolled around he was in the bathroom vomiting from having pulled consecutive all nighters as a result of a particularly heinous deal, so you know, good luck

[Anonymous User]

I have a different take on this than other replies. I would recommend getting ahead of the ball by continuing to bug the partners at least once a week for work. It's better to come off as slightly annoying than it is to get laid off for having low hours. Unfortunately as an associate, you are not the one who brings in the work, but you take the hit if the work is not there.

In accordance with the other comments, look into all of the activities that your firm would consider as "accountable hours" and brainstorm ways to record those accountable hours. Pro bono work, writing an article with a partner, business development lunches (with potential clients), CLE, and bar association activities are just a few ideas for you to try.

Realize that if you are not billing enough hours to justify your salary, the correct business decision is to lay you off from the firm. It's nothing personal, they may like you very much personally, but a law firm is a business. Decisions will be made from a business perspective, not by what seems "fair." Don't forget that.

OP here. Haha I think I was bothering the partners at least twice a week... via email and poking my head in their office. As to other accountable hours ... while normally the ones you mentioned (pro bono, article, etc.) might be accountable for most firms, mine doesn't count those at my annual review/evaluation. Other associates told me to not worry about it for now... esp. since I'm still waiting on CBX results.

[Anonymous User]

I'm at a regional big law firm.

I had very slow times to about 6 months (<100 hours/mo) in and slow times (little over 100 hours/mo) to about 8 months in.

After that, I've not had slow times since.

OP here. I'm only 2 months in, so hopefully this won't last. Also heard that litigation is slower during the end of the year...

[Anonymous User]

at my biglaw firm, one of my friends was slow for months after he started. just sitting at the office watching netflix for hours (i was put on several matters right away that were very time consuming)

eventually as december rolled around he was in the bathroom vomiting from having pulled consecutive all nighters as a result of a particularly heinous deal, so you know, good luck

OP here. I get I should enjoy it while it lasts, but at the same time, I'm physically in the office for about 11-12 hours a day (by choice--I'm in at 7 to be early enough to get free parking to commute here, and out at 630 to avoid the crazy amounts of people on the train at 5 [a nasty sauna, if you will]). When I don't get any assignments for the first 6 hours, I cherish even the most mundane work--e.g. depo summaries. I'm actually looking forward to having to put in all-nighters--got to impress them early, knowwhatimsayin?

[SFSpartan]

at my biglaw firm, one of my friends was slow for months after he started. just sitting at the office watching netflix for hours (i was put on several matters right away that were very time consuming)

eventually as december rolled around he was in the bathroom vomiting from having pulled consecutive all nighters as a result of a particularly heinous deal, so you know, good luck

OP here. I get I should enjoy it while it lasts, but at the same time, I'm physically in the office for about 11-12 hours a day (by choice--I'm in at 7 to be early enough to get free parking to commute here, and out at 630 to avoid the crazy amounts of people on the train at 5 [a nasty sauna, if you will]). When I don't get any assignments for the first 6 hours, I cherish even the most mundane work--e.g. depo summaries. I'm actually looking forward to having to put in all-nighters--got to impress them early, knowwhatimsayin?

Totally get the urge to impress, but the way you're going about it is setting you up to take on too much and eventually burn out. You don't have direct control over the work that comes your way right now. The one thing you can do to get more work is do the work you have really well. So focus on that.

Edit: Also, it's not uncommon for firms to have trouble integrating new associates, particularly midsize firms, who don't have the resources to hire a dedicated assignment coordinator. Bottom line, if you do the work you have well, more eventually come.

[barkschool]

at my biglaw firm, one of my friends was slow for months after he started. just sitting at the office watching netflix for hours (i was put on several matters right away that were very time consuming)

eventually as december rolled around he was in the bathroom vomiting from having pulled consecutive all nighters as a result of a particularly heinous deal, so you know, good luck

OP here. I get I should enjoy it while it lasts, but at the same time, I'm physically in the office for about 11-12 hours a day (by choice--I'm in at 7 to be early enough to get free parking to commute here, and out at 630 to avoid the crazy amounts of people on the train at 5 [a nasty sauna, if you will]). When I don't get any assignments for the first 6 hours, I cherish even the most mundane work--e.g. depo summaries. I'm actually looking forward to having to put in all-nighters--got to impress them early, knowwhatimsayin?

You seems to be the cause of your own issue here. Why not come in after the commute? Or like 9:30?

[Anonymous User]

at my biglaw firm, one of my friends was slow for months after he started. just sitting at the office watching netflix for hours (i was put on several matters right away that were very time consuming)

eventually as december rolled around he was in the bathroom vomiting from having pulled consecutive all nighters as a result of a particularly heinous deal, so you know, good luck

OP here. I get I should enjoy it while it lasts, but at the same time, I'm physically in the office for about 11-12 hours a day (by choice--I'm in at 7 to be early enough to get free parking to commute here, and out at 630 to avoid the crazy amounts of people on the train at 5 [a nasty sauna, if you will]). When I don't get any assignments for the first 6 hours, I cherish even the most mundane work--e.g. depo summaries. I'm actually looking forward to having to put in all-nighters--got to impress them early, knowwhatimsayin?

You seems to be the cause of your own issue here. Why not come in after the commute? Or like 9:30?

OP here. Haha because I'm cheap--I drive to the train station to, yknow, take the train, and, if and only if you're early enough, you can get a sweet spot that is FREE all day. Spots are limited to two long street blocks (maybe 30-40 cars total). Sometimes I get there at 5:45 AM, and it would be half filled (people are crazy). But still beats paying the $150 a month for the parking lot. Financial reasons aside, I figured it's better to develop a habit of waking early and getting more done.

[Anonymous User]

at my biglaw firm, one of my friends was slow for months after he started. just sitting at the office watching netflix for hours (i was put on several matters right away that were very time consuming)

eventually as december rolled around he was in the bathroom vomiting from having pulled consecutive all nighters as a result of a particularly heinous deal, so you know, good luck

OP here. I get I should enjoy it while it lasts, but at the same time, I'm physically in the office for about 11-12 hours a day (by choice--I'm in at 7 to be early enough to get free parking to commute here, and out at 630 to avoid the crazy amounts of people on the train at 5 [a nasty sauna, if you will]). When I don't get any assignments for the first 6 hours, I cherish even the most mundane work--e.g. depo summaries. I'm actually looking forward to having to put in all-nighters--got to impress them early, knowwhatimsayin?

Totally get the urge to impress, but the way you're going about it is setting you up to take on too much and eventually burn out. You don't have direct control over the work that comes your way right now. The one thing you can do to get more work is do the work you have really well. So focus on that.

Edit: Also, it's not uncommon for firms to have trouble integrating new associates, particularly midsize firms, who don't have the resources to hire a dedicated assignment coordinator. Bottom line, if you do the work you have well, more eventually come.

OP here. Appreciate the input. I do try to turn in my best work. Still, it's hard to show any worthiness when the most legally substantive work is just research. Which associate can't go on westlaw, find secondary sources, shepardize, look up notes on decisions of statutes, use connectors !%/s/p/n, pull up briefs on strong cases, make suggestions as to what to advise the client or the next move in litigation, etc. etc.? So far, nothing I turn in wows any of them. I can't wait to receive THE ONE assignment to draft a memo of P&A and i'll knock it out the park. Until then...

[SFSpartan]

at my biglaw firm, one of my friends was slow for months after he started. just sitting at the office watching netflix for hours (i was put on several matters right away that were very time consuming)

eventually as december rolled around he was in the bathroom vomiting from having pulled consecutive all nighters as a result of a particularly heinous deal, so you know, good luck

OP here. I get I should enjoy it while it lasts, but at the same time, I'm physically in the office for about 11-12 hours a day (by choice--I'm in at 7 to be early enough to get free parking to commute here, and out at 630 to avoid the crazy amounts of people on the train at 5 [a nasty sauna, if you will]). When I don't get any assignments for the first 6 hours, I cherish even the most mundane work--e.g. depo summaries. I'm actually looking forward to having to put in all-nighters--got to impress them early, knowwhatimsayin?

Totally get the urge to impress, but the way you're going about it is setting you up to take on too much and eventually burn out. You don't have direct control over the work that comes your way right now. The one thing you can do to get more work is do the work you have really well. So focus on that.

Edit: Also, it's not uncommon for firms to have trouble integrating new associates, particularly midsize firms, who don't have the resources to hire a dedicated assignment coordinator. Bottom line, if you do the work you have well, more eventually come.

OP here. Appreciate the input. I do try to turn in my best work. Still, it's hard to show any worthiness when the most legally substantive work is just research. Which associate can't go on westlaw, find secondary sources, shepardize, look up notes on decisions of statutes, use connectors !%/s/p/n, pull up briefs on strong cases, make suggestions as to what to advise the client or the next move in litigation, etc. etc.? So far, nothing I turn in wows any of them. I can't wait to receive THE ONE assignment to draft a memo of P&A and i'll knock it out the park. Until then...

A couple things based on this post and the one above

1. If you want to go into the city early, fine. But if getting into the office early and not having work as a result is giving you anxiety, then I'd join a gym or find something else to occupy myself with until 9:30ish.

2. Juniors often don't get substantive work. Getting research assignments doesn't mean you aren't "wowing" partners, midlevels, etc., and it doesn't mean that you aren't killing it at work. It just means that you're a junior associate.

3. Again, if you do good work when people give you things, are responsive, etc., more work will come. So just do good work and go with the flow.

[QContinuum]

at my biglaw firm, one of my friends was slow for months after he started. just sitting at the office watching netflix for hours (i was put on several matters right away that were very time consuming)

eventually as december rolled around he was in the bathroom vomiting from having pulled consecutive all nighters as a result of a particularly heinous deal, so you know, good luck

OP here. I get I should enjoy it while it lasts, but at the same time, I'm physically in the office for about 11-12 hours a day (by choice--I'm in at 7 to be early enough to get free parking to commute here, and out at 630 to avoid the crazy amounts of people on the train at 5 [a nasty sauna, if you will]). When I don't get any assignments for the first 6 hours, I cherish even the most mundane work--e.g. depo summaries. I'm actually looking forward to having to put in all-nighters--got to impress them early, knowwhatimsayin?

You seems to be the cause of your own issue here. Why not come in after the commute? Or like 9:30?

OP here. Haha because I'm cheap--I drive to the train station to, yknow, take the train, and, if and only if you're early enough, you can get a sweet spot that is FREE all day. Spots are limited to two long street blocks (maybe 30-40 cars total). Sometimes I get there at 5:45 AM, and it would be half filled (people are crazy). But still beats paying the $150 a month for the parking lot. Financial reasons aside, I figured it's better to develop a habit of waking early and getting more done.

Yeah, I'm cheap too, but getting to the train station by 5:45 AM just to get free parking is a bridge too far. Lawyering is stressful enough; the way you're going at it is simply not sustainable. You'll burn yourself out, and you won't have saved money in the long run because of the burnout. You're going to need to shell out the $150/month for parking - either that, or you're going to need to move into the city.

[nixy]

yeah, you mention that you're getting paid handsomely, so $150 for parking sounds like it would be a worthwhile investment.

Also, wrt

Still, it's hard to show any worthiness when the most legally substantive work is just research. Which associate can't go on westlaw, find secondary sources, shepardize, look up notes on decisions of statutes, use connectors !%/s/p/n, pull up briefs on strong cases, make suggestions as to what to advise the client or the next move in litigation, etc. etc.?

some people still do this better than others.

[k5220]

at my biglaw firm, one of my friends was slow for months after he started. just sitting at the office watching netflix for hours (i was put on several matters right away that were very time consuming)

eventually as december rolled around he was in the bathroom vomiting from having pulled consecutive all nighters as a result of a particularly heinous deal, so you know, good luck

OP here. I get I should enjoy it while it lasts, but at the same time, I'm physically in the office for about 11-12 hours a day (by choice--I'm in at 7 to be early enough to get free parking to commute here, and out at 630 to avoid the crazy amounts of people on the train at 5 [a nasty sauna, if you will]). When I don't get any assignments for the first 6 hours, I cherish even the most mundane work--e.g. depo summaries. I'm actually looking forward to having to put in all-nighters--got to impress them early, knowwhatimsayin?

Totally get the urge to impress, but the way you're going about it is setting you up to take on too much and eventually burn out. You don't have direct control over the work that comes your way right now. The one thing you can do to get more work is do the work you have really well. So focus on that.

Edit: Also, it's not uncommon for firms to have trouble integrating new associates, particularly midsize firms, who don't have the resources to hire a dedicated assignment coordinator. Bottom line, if you do the work you have well, more eventually come.

OP here. Appreciate the input. I do try to turn in my best work. Still, it's hard to show any worthiness when the most legally substantive work is just research. Which associate can't go on westlaw, find secondary sources, shepardize, look up notes on decisions of statutes, use connectors !%/s/p/n, pull up briefs on strong cases, make suggestions as to what to advise the client or the next move in litigation, etc. etc.? So far, nothing I turn in wows any of them. I can't wait to receive THE ONE assignment to draft a memo of P&A and i'll knock it out the park. Until then...

Don't treat these assignments so differently in your head. Draft your research memo so that it could be copied/pasted into a memo of points and authorities -- use argumentative headings, phrase the rule persuasively, flesh out the analysis to the extent you can. If there are issues with your side of the argument that need to be pointed out, try to answer them in your memo; if that's not possible, point out weaknesses in the email attaching your memo. I mean, there are certain research issues where this is less appropriate, and where the assigning attorney really does just want an objective understanding of the law, but most of the time, attorneys are busy and appreciate the ability to just use your work more directly.

[RaceJudicata]

at my biglaw firm, one of my friends was slow for months after he started. just sitting at the office watching netflix for hours (i was put on several matters right away that were very time consuming)

eventually as december rolled around he was in the bathroom vomiting from having pulled consecutive all nighters as a result of a particularly heinous deal, so you know, good luck

OP here. I get I should enjoy it while it lasts, but at the same time, I'm physically in the office for about 11-12 hours a day (by choice--I'm in at 7 to be early enough to get free parking to commute here, and out at 630 to avoid the crazy amounts of people on the train at 5 [a nasty sauna, if you will]). When I don't get any assignments for the first 6 hours, I cherish even the most mundane work--e.g. depo summaries. I'm actually looking forward to having to put in all-nighters--got to impress them early, knowwhatimsayin?

Totally get the urge to impress, but the way you're going about it is setting you up to take on too much and eventually burn out. You don't have direct control over the work that comes your way right now. The one thing you can do to get more work is do the work you have really well. So focus on that.

Edit: Also, it's not uncommon for firms to have trouble integrating new associates, particularly midsize firms, who don't have the resources to hire a dedicated assignment coordinator. Bottom line, if you do the work you have well, more eventually come.

OP here. Appreciate the input. I do try to turn in my best work. Still, it's hard to show any worthiness when the most legally substantive work is just research. Which associate can't go on westlaw, find secondary sources, shepardize, look up notes on decisions of statutes, use connectors !%/s/p/n, pull up briefs on strong cases, make suggestions as to what to advise the client or the next move in litigation, etc. etc.? So far, nothing I turn in wows any of them. I can't wait to receive THE ONE assignment to draft a memo of P&A and i'll knock it out the park. Until then...

Don't treat these assignments so differently in your head. Draft your research memo so that it could be copied/pasted into a memo of points and authorities -- use argumentative headings, phrase the rule persuasively, flesh out the analysis to the extent you can. If there are issues with your side of the argument that need to be pointed out, try to answer them in your memo; if that's not possible, point out weaknesses in the email attaching your memo. I mean, there are certain research issues where this is less appropriate, and where the assigning attorney really does just want an objective understanding of the law, but most of the time, attorneys are busy and appreciate the ability to just use your work more directly.

Yep, of course learn the context where this is appropriate... as mentioned above, sometimes they just want answer/background and not argument. but the above advice is also applicable to simpler, non brief related research.

For example... partner tells you client asked x. Partner wants answer.

You: do your research, type up email with your answer/analysis. But also type up a few sentence draft email to be sent from the partner to client. If you do a good job, they’ll take this draft and send directly to client... and you’ll save the partner time.

[Anonymous User]

Don't treat these assignments so differently in your head. Draft your research memo so that it could be copied/pasted into a memo of points and authorities -- use argumentative headings, phrase the rule persuasively, flesh out the analysis to the extent you can. If there are issues with your side of the argument that need to be pointed out, try to answer them in your memo; if that's not possible, point out weaknesses in the email attaching your memo. I mean, there are certain research issues where this is less appropriate, and where the assigning attorney really does just want an objective understanding of the law, but most of the time, attorneys are busy and appreciate the ability to just use your work more directly.

Yep, of course learn the context where this is appropriate... as mentioned above, sometimes they just want answer/background and not argument. but the above advice is also applicable to simpler, non brief related research.

For example... partner tells you client asked x. Partner wants answer.

You: do your research, type up email with your answer/analysis. But also type up a few sentence draft email to be sent from the partner to client. If you do a good job, they’ll take this draft and send directly to client... and you’ll save the partner time.

OP here. Thanks for the tips!! These are things you just can't learn... esp. because partners don't tell you this up front (or they don't really know that they want it until presented to them..). Appreciate it.

There should be a compiled guide for 1st year associates on TLS!!!

[k5220]

Don't treat these assignments so differently in your head. Draft your research memo so that it could be copied/pasted into a memo of points and authorities -- use argumentative headings, phrase the rule persuasively, flesh out the analysis to the extent you can. If there are issues with your side of the argument that need to be pointed out, try to answer them in your memo; if that's not possible, point out weaknesses in the email attaching your memo. I mean, there are certain research issues where this is less appropriate, and where the assigning attorney really does just want an objective understanding of the law, but most of the time, attorneys are busy and appreciate the ability to just use your work more directly.

Yep, of course learn the context where this is appropriate... as mentioned above, sometimes they just want answer/background and not argument. but the above advice is also applicable to simpler, non brief related research.

For example... partner tells you client asked x. Partner wants answer.

You: do your research, type up email with your answer/analysis. But also type up a few sentence draft email to be sent from the partner to client. If you do a good job, they’ll take this draft and send directly to client... and you’ll save the partner time.

OP here. Thanks for the tips!! These are things you just can't learn... esp. because partners don't tell you this up front (or they don't really know that they want it until presented to them..). Appreciate it.

There should be a compiled guide for 1st year associates on TLS!!!

I had a really good mentor who gave me this advice when I first started. Other advice she gave me that was helpful when I was just starting:
- Take a pen and paper with you whenever you're talking to a partner and take good notes
- Ask questions to make sure you understand the assignment. If it seems unclear, repeat back what you think the assignment is to get confirmation ("So, you want me to ..., right?") Depending on the situation, you might also want to ask where they would suggest you start (sometimes they'll know of a helpful treatise or other resource, or have good advice about how to approach the research), how long they think you should spend on it (especially if it's a really broad assignment that you think you could spend a variable amount of time on), or what form they'd like the answer in (sometimes this is obvious and you don't need to ask).
- If they don't give you one, ask for a deadline (e.g. "When do you need this by?")
- Don't be afraid to check in or follow up with questions if they come up after you've started (especially if you're getting close to the deadline or close to hitting how much time they expected something to take, or if the timeline for the assignment is very long). People have their own preferences for communication that you'll eventually learn, but generally, they prefer some communication to radio silence, which can make people worry. (On the converse, try not to ask things you could figure out yourself without too much work).
- Act excited about the work