Median T20 grad, still unemployed... Forum

[Anonymous User]

I’m in an even worse spot and would LOVE some advice. Undergrad at state school, then Ivy League STEM graduate degree (3.6 GPA) plus state school MBA (4.0 GPA) and 5 years work experience as CFO of a $30-$50M revenue company before law school. Middle of the pack at T20 with summers at the DA’s office after getting shutout at OCI.

2 years after graduation and 600+ applications to big/mid/small/solo firms, agencies, in-house jobs, accounting/consulting firms, and I’ve had (not a joke) a single interview. I felt like the interview went amazing and really clicked with the 3 interviewers...then I got rejected 2 days later. Worse yet (maybe), I keep hearing, “Oh, you look awesome. You’ll have no problem finding anything.” Yet it would appear that nobody is actually interested. I even paid a recruiting service $400 to do a total resume re-write. I’ve been trying the solo thing and have learned a ton and had a lot of fun, but cases barely trickle in even after dropping serious money on advertising. Seriously getting more worried/frustrated by the day.

All of that is to say I feel like I’ve covered most of my bases, but I still can’t get traction. Thoughts? Advice? Questions?

NOTE: If this belongs in a different forum or a new thread, I assume admin will move it? Thanks!

[2013]

I’m in an even worse spot and would LOVE some advice. Undergrad at state school, then Ivy League STEM graduate degree (3.6 GPA) plus state school MBA (4.0 GPA) and 5 years work experience as CFO of a $30-$50M revenue company before law school. Middle of the pack at T20 with summers at the DA’s office after getting shutout at OCI.

2 years after graduation and 600+ applications to big/mid/small/solo firms, agencies, in-house jobs, accounting/consulting firms, and I’ve had (not a joke) a single interview. I felt like the interview went amazing and really clicked with the 3 interviewers...then I got rejected 2 days later. Worse yet (maybe), I keep hearing, “Oh, you look awesome. You’ll have no problem finding anything.” Yet it would appear that nobody is actually interested. I even paid a recruiting service $400 to do a total resume re-write. I’ve been trying the solo thing and have learned a ton and had a lot of fun, but cases barely trickle in even after dropping serious money on advertising. Seriously getting more worried/frustrated by the day.

All of that is to say I feel like I’ve covered most of my bases, but I still can’t get traction. Thoughts? Advice? Questions?

NOTE: If this belongs in a different forum or a new thread, I assume admin will move it? Thanks!

Are you inflexible with location? I feel like with your credentials, firms in SF, Denver, Seattle, Boston (wherever IP is bigger) would at least give you an interview.

[nixy]

Are you inflexible with location? I feel like with your credentials, firms in SF, Denver, Seattle, Boston (wherever IP is bigger) would at least give you an interview.

Not knocking this person's credentials at all, but Denver and Seattle are incredibly insular/sought after and competitive/really look for ties, so they're not just about credentials (not saying it's not worth applying, it always is, but they're not necessarily a solution).

[TUwave]

Get a job w an agency or prosecutor/public defender. Apply for state and fed clerkships, and then you'll have options after you clerk. That's the easiest way to land something after you miss the boat in 2L

This is exactly what I did when I struck out at OCI (I was at a T20). Clerking gives you sort of a do-over when it comes to breaking into firms.

Same. I went the state agency route for a year and a half —> biglaw. State agency pay sucks but the substantive experience is invaluable.

[Anonymous User]

I'm just wondering - is anyone out there still in this position? Struck out at OCI and mass mailing, can't seem to find any new interviews despite my 200+ mass mailings. Smiling and shaking hands at networking events, writing letters to ask for help and just doing everything I can. My only conclusion is that I must be as abhorrent as toad guts in person. At this point, I'm generally desperate for something, ANYTHING to work out so that I can have some hope of paying off my student loans before I die.

So, is there anyone who's still pushing forward down the same path? Anyone who found themselves here last year? If so, I'd really appreciate any advice you have - I'm feeling like it's game over.

Do not give up. I am a few years out of law school and I am consistently shocked by how many people I meet who had not excellent grades and came from bad schools but who end up in biglaw anyway because they made a few right steps. The best piece of advice that I can give you is to specialize as soon as possible. Labor and Employment? ERISA? Bankruptcy? Find a niche area of law that you like and take a large volume of relevant classes. Construct a narrative for yourself that you can sell in your interviews. Pursue post-3L legal opportunities in that direction. If you cannot get a job through your general grades and resume, you will be able to get one through specializing. It may take a few years but if there is an uptick in your practice area, you will be the first person to get scooped into biglaw.

[Anonymous User]

I'm just wondering - is anyone out there still in this position? Struck out at OCI and mass mailing, can't seem to find any new interviews despite my 200+ mass mailings. Smiling and shaking hands at networking events, writing letters to ask for help and just doing everything I can. My only conclusion is that I must be as abhorrent as toad guts in person. At this point, I'm generally desperate for something, ANYTHING to work out so that I can have some hope of paying off my student loans before I die.

So, is there anyone who's still pushing forward down the same path? Anyone who found themselves here last year? If so, I'd really appreciate any advice you have - I'm feeling like it's game over.

Do not give up. I am a few years out of law school and I am consistently shocked by how many people I meet who had not excellent grades and came from bad schools but who end up in biglaw anyway because they made a few right steps. The best piece of advice that I can give you is to specialize as soon as possible. Labor and Employment? ERISA? Bankruptcy? Find a niche area of law that you like and take a large volume of relevant classes. Construct a narrative for yourself that you can sell in your interviews. Pursue post-3L legal opportunities in that direction. If you cannot get a job through your general grades and resume, you will be able to get one through specializing. It may take a few years but if there is an uptick in your practice area, you will be the first person to get scooped into biglaw.

I want to point something out (I work in ERISA). Firms are rarely looking for exec comp and ERISA associates and they usually fill spots with their summer associates. So, though it’s specialized, unless you have an LLM, you won’t really be able to break into it if you struck out of OCI to begin with. very few firms are looking for ERISA summer associates.

There are tons of L&E firms (Littler, Seyfarth, Ogletree, Jackson Lewis, etc.), so it’s easier to specialize in that area without stellar grades.

Just my two cents.

[Anonymous User]

I'm just wondering - is anyone out there still in this position? Struck out at OCI and mass mailing, can't seem to find any new interviews despite my 200+ mass mailings. Smiling and shaking hands at networking events, writing letters to ask for help and just doing everything I can. My only conclusion is that I must be as abhorrent as toad guts in person. At this point, I'm generally desperate for something, ANYTHING to work out so that I can have some hope of paying off my student loans before I die.

So, is there anyone who's still pushing forward down the same path? Anyone who found themselves here last year? If so, I'd really appreciate any advice you have - I'm feeling like it's game over.

Do not give up. I am a few years out of law school and I am consistently shocked by how many people I meet who had not excellent grades and came from bad schools but who end up in biglaw anyway because they made a few right steps. The best piece of advice that I can give you is to specialize as soon as possible. Labor and Employment? ERISA? Bankruptcy? Find a niche area of law that you like and take a large volume of relevant classes. Construct a narrative for yourself that you can sell in your interviews. Pursue post-3L legal opportunities in that direction. If you cannot get a job through your general grades and resume, you will be able to get one through specializing. It may take a few years but if there is an uptick in your practice area, you will be the first person to get scooped into biglaw.

I want to point something out (I work in ERISA). Firms are rarely looking for exec comp and ERISA associates and they usually fill spots with their summer associates. So, though it’s specialized, unless you have an LLM, you won’t really be able to break into it if you struck out of OCI to begin with. very few firms are looking for ERISA summer associates.

There are tons of L&E firms (Littler, Seyfarth, Ogletree, Jackson Lewis, etc.), so it’s easier to specialize in that area without stellar grades.

Just my two cents.

The whole issue with getting a job by specializing v. getting one through OCI—I’m not knocking the validity of the advice—is that you can’t really specialize until you actually have a job. So you take a bunch of specialized classes, but you can’t find anything after graduation...what do you do? These niche classes aren’t useful unless they actually get you an interview in your relevant practice field.

For example, I’ve got an MS and a PhD in Industrial engineering & Operations Research and an MBA in Finance, so have tried for tech-oriented jobs. I also took a ton of business law classes and got my school’s Law & Business Certificate, thinking I could sell the whole IP/business law with a value add of being proficient in understanding the technical and business components of companies’ legal issues. 1 interview out of countless applications, and I’m 2 years out of school with no job prospects...

[QContinuum]

Get a job w an agency or prosecutor/public defender. Apply for state and fed clerkships, and then you'll have options after you clerk. That's the easiest way to land something after you miss the boat in 2L

This is exactly what I did when I struck out at OCI (I was at a T20). Clerking gives you sort of a do-over when it comes to breaking into firms.

Same. I went the state agency route for a year and a half —> biglaw. State agency pay sucks but the substantive experience is invaluable.

To OP: I split your post and the replies into this new thread - no need to resurrect the 2015 thread about a T14 2L.

I third the advice above to try landing a gov job (a nonprestigious/noncompetitive one), followed by a clerkship (or a clerkship directly, if you can get one). If you want to break back into working for a firm, that's the way to do it - you need that clerkship on your resume. You'll never break back in as a solo.

Best wishes.

[Int'lshoe]

Here are some suggestions:
1) Stop mass mailing, you are not getting any decent responses for the time you are spending
2) Go to your Career Services office and hound them for help
3) Continue to apply to jobs through your Career Services symplicity portal
4) Attend every legal networking event you can
5) Contact alumni at small/mid size firms in your area and ask to setup a coffee
6) Signup with your local bar association's referral service
7) Volunteer with your bar association or other professional orgs

Like others have suggested, you are more likely to get an entry level job in government. Because it has been 2 years since you graduated, you need to show you have been doing things in the law so that people do not think you have lost all relevant experience.

[Anonymous User]

Definitely have NOT tried mass mailing, for the reason you suggest.

As for Career Services at Vandy, they’re useless. They get firms to come for 2L OCI, but you’re SOL if that doesn’t get you anything. I think a whole 11 firms cane for 3L OCI, and practically all the employers 2L OCI wanted people from the top 1/3 (meaning 2/3 is necessarily excluded). Their advice do me has been “network and apply to everything.” I’m not saying that’s not good advice, but 1) I’d assume someone in “career services” has more advice to give than common sense observations, and 2) if someone is so socially hamstrung that they don’t know to network and apply, then they have zero business at a decent law school anyway. Also, I had to practically beg and plead with Career Services for them to finally tell me, “I know XXX form is desperate for XXX litigators.” Really? I have to BEG for them to give me stuff they should’ve immediately offered up?!

Still applying through Symplicity, but those jobs are few and far between.

Volunteering and networking like crazy, but nobody seems to actually be hiring. “Your Resume looks awesome! You’ll have no problem finding something...but we’re not hiring.” At 2 years after graduation, I’m starting to get bad discouraged. Is anybody on this board hiring? Lol Litigatir with 2 years’ experience in private practice here!

Here are some suggestions:
1) Stop mass mailing, you are not getting any decent responses for the time you are spending
2) Go to your Career Services office and hound them for help
3) Continue to apply to jobs through your Career Services symplicity portal
4) Attend every legal networking event you can
5) Contact alumni at small/mid size firms in your area and ask to setup a coffee
6) Signup with your local bar association's referral service
7) Volunteer with your bar association or other professional orgs

Like others have suggested, you are more likely to get an entry level job in government. Because it has been 2 years since you graduated, you need to show you have been doing things in the law so that people do not think you have lost all relevant experience.

[totesTheGoat]

I Undergrad at state school, then Ivy League STEM graduate degree (3.6 GPA) plus state school MBA (4.0 GPA) and 5 years work experience as CFO of a $30-$50M revenue company before law school. Middle of the pack at T20 with summers at the DA’s office after getting shutout at OCI.

Patent bar eligible? Is your STEM degree in bio/chem, per chance? I know a few firms that would like to hire a life sciences attorney with a USPTO reg. number.

All of that is to say I feel like I’ve covered most of my bases, but I still can’t get traction. Thoughts? Advice? Questions?

My first thought is that you're overcredentialed by 2. The MBA is getting you nowhere with firms and the STEM grad degree doesn't get you anywhere unless you're applying for IP jobs.

If you're not doing it now, you need to tailor your resume to each job you're applying for. De-emphasize any degrees and experience that isn't relevant to the job you want. For example, an MBA and a STEM grad degree are worthless in a DA's office.

[andythefir]

Go west and go rural, you need way more geographic flexibility.

[QContinuum]

As for Career Services at Vandy, they’re useless. They get firms to come for 2L OCI, but you’re SOL if that doesn’t get you anything. I think a whole 11 firms cane for 3L OCI, and practically all the employers 2L OCI wanted people from the top 1/3 (meaning 2/3 is necessarily excluded).

Not questioning your experience at all, but Vandy's BigLaw/federal clerkship placement power vastly exceeds 1/3rd. Per ABA disclosures, they placed 56% of their class of 2016 (your class year, I assume) in BL/FC. So if the 2L OCI firms only want the top 33%, have you networked with your classmates to find out how the remainder of the 56% - i.e., those who struck out at 2L OCI, yet landed well anyway - got their BL/FC gigs? Did they do anything you didn't do?

Further, for Vandy's class of 2016, only 2 grads reported being "unemployed - seeking." We see another grad whose status was unknown, and another 8 in short-term, law school/university-funded gigs. So at most 11 grads, or 6%, of the class of 2016 were unable to land a permanent position after graduation. You didn't end up in the 6% due to grades, since you were around median, so what did the other 94% do that you didn't do?

I don't ask any of the above to attack/criticize you, but to advocate for talking with your classmates to understand what more they did. You may still be able to try anything you missed back then.

[Anonymous User]

So at most 11 grads, or 6%, of the class of 2016 were unable to land a permanent position after graduation.

I wonder what happened to these 11 poor souls

[Anonymous User]

I was one of them. Not sure about the others. As for federal clerkships, our clerkships dean actually told people with grades better than mine that they didn’t stand a chance, so I didn’t apply. Guess I got bad information?

Also, am I correct in thinking a firm would be hesitant to hire someone in their mid-30s? It just doesn’t really fit into the box. I’m trying to brainstorm here.

Finally, I’m not moving out West (not helpful advice). Restricting my search to the entire Eastern US with a focus on the Southeast is hardly geographically restrictive. Nonetheless, “home” is important to me. Also, Career Services mentioned strong ties being important? I’ve lived in the same state my entire life, if that helps.

So at most 11 grads, or 6%, of the class of 2016 were unable to land a permanent position after graduation.

I wonder what happened to these 11 poor souls

[Dnl2111]

This is neither reasonable nor helpful. You're literally saying that limiting a job search to the entire Eastern United States--50% of the nation's land mass--is so limited that it requires "way more geographic flexibility"? Nah. That also neglects that moving to any random town in the continental United States (or perhaps you'd also suggest Hawaii and Alaska) is an untenable proposition for most people.

Go west and go rural, you need way more geographic flexibility.

[Dnl2111]

Doesn't sound like you're questioning/attacking/criticizing at all! I appreciate the input, actually. So I can't speak for federal clerkships, but I can say that the vast majority of firms (i.e., firms you've heard of) wouldn't hire anyone not in the top 1/3 of the class, regardless of whether or not you got a pity interview.

I was actually friendly with most all of my classmates, so I've asked a lot of them how they got their jobs. I'm pretty sure all the Big Law people got their jobs through a 2L summer associate spot. In the case, the thing they did that I didn't do was get a 2L summer associate spot. As for federal clerkships, I have no idea what the deal is with that. Our dean told me I didn't have the grades, and (perhaps erroneously) I took him at his word.

Of those 11, I think I actually know most of them. Not dumbasses but not rock stars either. They ended up doing e-discovery and doc review at $20/hr. I've also got a couple of friends who did podunk state clerkships, and now they're unemployed after the first year. These people are in the same boat I'm in.

That's good to know that being in the 6% isn't due to grades. Could it be due to being older? I've got a substantial business career prior to law school. Could it be having advanced degrees? I tailor them to the spot (e.g., MS in engineering is a value-add for understanding the technicality of IP jobs).

Not for nothing, that's super nice you underscoring that you're not trying to be ugly about anything. It's an awkward subject to talk about, and an even worse thing to live out. The encouragement in, "You may still be able to try..." is MUCH appreciated!

NOTE: If I post on my phone, don't judge for the typos!

As for Career Services at Vandy, they’re useless. They get firms to come for 2L OCI, but you’re SOL if that doesn’t get you anything. I think a whole 11 firms cane for 3L OCI, and practically all the employers 2L OCI wanted people from the top 1/3 (meaning 2/3 is necessarily excluded).

Not questioning your experience at all, but Vandy's BigLaw/federal clerkship placement power vastly exceeds 1/3rd. Per ABA disclosures, they placed 56% of their class of 2016 (your class year, I assume) in BL/FC. So if the 2L OCI firms only want the top 33%, have you networked with your classmates to find out how the remainder of the 56% - i.e., those who struck out at 2L OCI, yet landed well anyway - got their BL/FC gigs? Did they do anything you didn't do?

Further, for Vandy's class of 2016, only 2 grads reported being "unemployed - seeking." We see another grad whose status was unknown, and another 8 in short-term, law school/university-funded gigs. So at most 11 grads, or 6%, of the class of 2016 were unable to land a permanent position after graduation. You didn't end up in the 6% due to grades, since you were around median, so what did the other 94% do that you didn't do?

I don't ask any of the above to attack/criticize you, but to advocate for talking with your classmates to understand what more they did. You may still be able to try anything you missed back then.

[Dnl2111]

Hey even if you've never practiced a day of IP law in your life, does passing the patent bar make you more marketable?

[Anonymous User]

I can sympathize with the sentiment of this thread.

Had a job right after graduation, but it was a temporary position. Struggled to pass the bar exam (which I finally did) over the last two years. Been unemployed during this time period.

I've been exclusively applying to public sector positions over the last 3 months since that's where I want to be. I've applied to almost 100 places, only 3 interviews so far. Sometimes I feel demoralized, but I remind myself I have to keep pushing, keep applying, etc.

[QContinuum]

Yes, I know it's hard but definitely keep pushing. You're a Vandy grad - that counts for something. TLS is a bit of a biased sampling, with its vast overrepresentation of T13/BigLaw folks, but a median Vandy grad is still in a better position than many, many U.S. law school grads.

One thing I would advocate is to keep in touch with your BL classmates. They probably won't be able to help you now, but a year or two down the road, once you've gotten a government job and (ideally) a clerkship under your belt, they'll be midlevels and possibly able to help you get a foot in the door at their firms. That personal connection could mean the difference between your resume ending up buried in a pile somewhere and your resume actually getting reviewed.

Hey even if you've never practiced a day of IP law in your life, does passing the patent bar make you more marketable?

Absolutely go for it. IP firms are hungry for folks with engineering backgrounds, as the typical law school grad was a liberal arts major in college. Once you get that reg. number, you should be very marketable in the IP space.

If you're on a tight budget, Omniprep has a $500 prep course that can do the trick. It's kind of bare bones, so you'll probably have to put in some additional legwork since you don't have previous patent experience, but I think you can pass with it. PLI is reputed to be (significantly) better, but it's also (significantly) costlier.

[andythefir]

This is neither reasonable nor helpful. You're literally saying that limiting a job search to the entire Eastern United States--50% of the nation's land mass--is so limited that it requires "way more geographic flexibility"? Nah. That also neglects that moving to any random town in the continental United States (or perhaps you'd also suggest Hawaii and Alaska) is an untenable proposition for most people.

Go west and go rural, you need way more geographic flexibility.

It’s also true that if you limit a job search to, say, Michigan or Chicago, you’re going to have less success because those places have way too many attorneys hunting for way too few jobs. It’s also true that in any region rural places will have fewer applicants. I never meant to imply it was easy, but there are places in the rural mountain west where they can’t hire anybody because literally not 1 person applies.

[Anonymous User]

Yes, patent bar eligible. Registered for the exam later this month. I’m hoping that having that registration number (is that different then my OED ID number?) will get firms’ attention.

I’m too old to be willing to move to another region of the country, so my location is what it is.

Good call on tailoring the resume to the job. Will firms ever care about an MBA? I ask because I talked to a corporate finance transactional Attorney at a big firm in Charlotte (firm name escapes me), and he said his firm didn’t care about advanced degrees or if you actually understood the underlying transaction. Make sense what I’m asking and why?

I Undergrad at state school, then Ivy League STEM graduate degree (3.6 GPA) plus state school MBA (4.0 GPA) and 5 years work experience as CFO of a $30-$50M revenue company before law school. Middle of the pack at T20 with summers at the DA’s office after getting shutout at OCI.

Patent bar eligible? Is your STEM degree in bio/chem, per chance? I know a few firms that would like to hire a life sciences attorney with a USPTO reg. number.

All of that is to say I feel like I’ve covered most of my bases, but I still can’t get traction. Thoughts? Advice? Questions?

My first thought is that you're overcredentialed by 2. The MBA is getting you nowhere with firms and the STEM grad degree doesn't get you anywhere unless you're applying for IP jobs.

If you're not doing it now, you need to tailor your resume to each job you're applying for. De-emphasize any degrees and experience that isn't relevant to the job you want. For example, an MBA and a STEM grad degree are worthless in a DA's office.

[Anonymous User]

Thanks for the advice on OmniPrep! You’re right that it’s kinda bare bones, but it’s got all I’d want. Studying for the Tennessee bar, I never watched the Kaplan videos anyway. I’m 3 weeks from test time, and the OmniPrep material has been good (if not less than ideally organized).

Yes, I know it's hard but definitely keep pushing. You're a Vandy grad - that counts for something. TLS is a bit of a biased sampling, with its vast overrepresentation of T13/BigLaw folks, but a median Vandy grad is still in a better position than many, many U.S. law school grads.

One thing I would advocate is to keep in touch with your BL classmates. They probably won't be able to help you now, but a year or two down the road, once you've gotten a government job and (ideally) a clerkship under your belt, they'll be midlevels and possibly able to help you get a foot in the door at their firms. That personal connection could mean the difference between your resume ending up buried in a pile somewhere and your resume actually getting reviewed.

Hey even if you've never practiced a day of IP law in your life, does passing the patent bar make you more marketable?

Absolutely go for it. IP firms are hungry for folks with engineering backgrounds, as the typical law school grad was a liberal arts major in college. Once you get that reg. number, you should be very marketable in the IP space.

If you're on a tight budget, Omniprep has a $500 prep course that can do the trick. It's kind of bare bones, so you'll probably have to put in some additional legwork since you don't have previous patent experience, but I think you can pass with it. PLI is reputed to be (significantly) better, but it's also (significantly) costlier.

[albanach]

I’m too old to be willing to move to another region of the country, so my location is what it is.

No one is too old to move. Maybe you have family reasons? E.g. kids in school or your spouse has a job they don't want to leave?

Either way, I'd still be exploring the options at this point. You can always turn down an offer, but it would give you an idea of what you should expect. Or are you saying that, even if offered a 1st year biglaw associate position outside NY paying $160k+, you'd turn that down?

Good call on tailoring the resume to the job. Will firms ever care about an MBA? I ask because I talked to a corporate finance transactional Attorney at a big firm in Charlotte (firm name escapes me), and he said his firm didn’t care about advanced degrees or if you actually understood the underlying transaction. Make sense what I’m asking and why?

I'm surprised the resume service you used never pointed this out previously.

If you were going in-house, then the MBA might have value. There's more need to understand the business aspects of a deal. Firms want to know you're not going to be bored and leave after 12-18 months when you're just starting to be productive.

[sparty99]

Your resume must suck because after 600 applications, you would get more then one interview. I was below median at a T50 and to this day I still get big law interviews (Nixon Peabody, Bryan Cave). In law school, I had NY prosecutor interviews. So it is something about your resume. You should maybe remove the MBA. And don't be picky. How have you not had interviews at insurance defense firms? At this point, just get your foot in the door. I have seen many people from crappy tier 3 or 4 schools get jobs and it sounds like you have a better record.