Realistic QoL expectations for family man, T14 grad, top 1/3rd of class, minimal debt Forum

[switchcareerdad]

I'm a dad of three kids and married to a wonderful woman, about to jump into LS apps, and I'm trying to figure out reasonable expectations re work hours and salary after LS (assuming I pull the trigger on this). With my numbers, resume, and what we've thrown in savings over the past several years, I think it's reasonable to think that I can get into a T14 and graduate without a ton of debt. Let's say I work my butt off and finish in the top third of my class. This all might be delusions of grandeur, but let's go with it. I'm thinking more transactional than litigation FWIW

So when I finish, I'm going to be more worried about QoL than $$$ (we're used to $45k/yr). Looking through LST, the vast majority of T14 grads do biglaw, and I'm wondering if that's because they want/need the salary and prestige, or if that's pretty much their only option after graduation. I'm leery of the hours that come with biglaw because I don’t want to crap on my family, and I've talked to too many people who started biglaw when married and ended up rich and divorced. I'm okay with every so often you'll have crazy weeks/months, but I'm not interested if that's the norm. However, I'd prefer working at a small/medium firm (or big firm with not too crazy hours) at first because I want to learn my stuff and not just do lazy gov work.

So…is it realistic to think I can find a position where ~50hrs/wk at work is fairly common, and let's say I make ~low-6-figs in coastal markets or ~high-5-figs in secondary/tertiary? After scouring through old threads, I can't seem to find the answer to this question. TIA!

[Backstory if you're interested: Been working in education the past 10 years--teacher then school administrator--mainly overseas, but my wife came down with a super-rare neurological condition while pregnant with our third child, which forced us back to the States. She's better now, but son (almost 1yr) has health issues that will probably prevent us from returning overseas. I'm not sure I want to spend the rest of my career working with kids--sorry I said it--and I think law would be a good fit for multiple reasons. I'm from SoCal but don't mind moving--wife and I have always talked about the Rockies (Denver/Boise/etc), we have family in Louisville, so we're open.]

[Anonymous User]

Yes, that’s a feasible goal. You’ll have to work hard (networking, etc.) to find available positions—biglaw is much easier (although not necessarily less competitive)—but they are definitely out there.

[Anonymous User]

Assuming you end up getting into a T14 (or Vandy), I don’t think you’d have any problem finding a regional biglaw job in Louisville. Probably would be best if you went to Duke or UVA unless it’s HYS.

I had very marginal connections to Louisville and got a few interviews there. There are firms that pay low-to-mid six figures (Wyatt Tarrant, Stites, Greenebaum and a few more). And as you probably know, 100k+ is a very comfortable lifestyle in KY. I believe the hours were more reasonable too.

The Rockies will probably be hard to crack without connections.

[Anonymous User]

Definitely feasible - will just require a lot of personalized and deliberate footwork to send applications to the right firms for you. Yes, most relevant grads do biglaw for money, prestige, career progression, etc. (and that it’s easier when all the big firms actually recruit on campus). You can definitely have a strategy to deliberately apply to certain firms. As others have said, region will matter a lot. Lastly, don’t even assume top 1/3; everyone is smart, and you have no idea how you’ll do grade-wise (but shouldn’t always matter that much depending on the cities you have in mind).

[Anonymous User]

It’s also worth noting that you may not need top 1/3 at a T14 for this. Honestly, it’s probably neither necessary nor sufficient: hiring for jobs like this comes down a lot to connections and fit, which means that these positions will often go to top 1/3 candidates from strong regional schools over top 5% candidates from HYS. Obviously, doing better at a better school helps—but it’s less crucial than it is for fed clerkships or biglaw.

[Anonymous User]

I think you are too far away from assuming what your work/life balance will look like. There are so many variables from where you get into school, your GPA in law school, OCI, market conditions, that you cannot accurately predict what your future attorney life would look like at this point.

Generally speaking, the main distinctions in work hours and schedules for attorneys focus first on whether you practice in a law firm or in-house/government, and then whether you are in litigation or do corporate work. Litigation and even corporate work at a law firm is demanding and you will always be a slave to your calendar, with large fluctuations in your hours depending on where your cases are at or when deals are closing. Comparatively, corporate work in-house or government generally affords much less but consistent hours.

The most important advice I will try to impress upon you is that law is a profession, and generally to be a good lawyer it takes a high level of commitment that will creep in to your personal life no matter where you are working. Make sure you are comfortable with that before you sink money and time into law school.

[Anonymous User]

I think you are too far away from assuming what your work/life balance will look like. There are so many variables from where you get into school, your GPA in law school, OCI, market conditions, that you cannot accurately predict what your future attorney life would look like at this point.

Generally speaking, the main distinctions in work hours and schedules for attorneys focus first on whether you practice in a law firm or in-house/government, and then whether you are in litigation or do corporate work. Litigation and even corporate work at a law firm is demanding and you will always be a slave to your calendar, with large fluctuations in your hours depending on where your cases are at or when deals are closing. Comparatively, corporate work in-house or government generally affords much less but consistent hours.

The most important advice I will try to impress upon you is that law is a profession, and generally to be a good lawyer it takes a high level of commitment that will creep in to your personal life no matter where you are working. Make sure you are comfortable with that before you sink money and time into law school.

I just want to emphasize this. Law is not an easy path to a great quality of life in all respects--it can be lucrative but that can often mean that you pay for it in other areas of your life. There are probably easier ways to make a comfortable living and, as a parent to two small kids, I definitely regret choosing law. The kind of parent I want to be is incompatible with being a biglaw lawyer and finding a sustainable path has been far from easy. If I could do it over again, I wouldn't go to law school and I DEFINITELY wouldn't have chosen litigation.

[Mobster1983]

I would recommend you start looking into federal attorney positions and set yourself up with an internship early in your law School career. Reasonable hours in many agencies and decent pay and benefits.

[Mobster1983]

I recommend you start looking into federal attorney positions and set yourself up with an internship early in your law School career if that is a route you would consider. Reasonable hours in many agencies and decent pay and benefits.

[Anonymous User]

My very honest opinion: if you care about quality of life at all, this isn't the job for you. Personally, I am a dad to two and love spending time with my kids more than anything. This career is not worth the sacrifice.

Background: I went to a t-14 and am a 6th year associate at a firm that pays Cravath. I started out at a big firm and hated the hours and wanted to spend more time with family so I took a huge pay cut to work at a regional firm in a flyover state (my wife's home state). Frankly, the hours weren't THAT much better. I took a 50% pay cut (before bonus) to work 90% of the hours. The truth is, firms make you do the work if it's there to be done. So after the market moved again (from 160 to 180) with bigger bonuses, I decided to move back to a big firm just to finish paying of my loans faster.

I can't tell you all the holidays I've worked over the years. Three Christmas Eves; multiple Thanksgivings. My whole extended family went to a popular lake for Memorial Day once and I spent the whole time inside working. 4th of July. Just this last week, billed 7 hours on Labor Day. Last night I stayed up til 1:00, woke up at 4:00. I mean, I've never had a vacation where I didn't work.

You probably underestimate how much debt you'll incur, and also how hard it is to finish top third. And there's a huge opportunity cost to going to law school; plus law school itself is a pain in the ass.

Just some thoughts from a flabby but formerly fit emotionally dead and extremely tired associate who just wants a nice weekend with my family. My loans will be paid off in one year. The countdown is on.

[Anonymous User]

My very honest opinion: if you care about quality of life at all, this isn't the job for you. Personally, I am a dad to two and love spending time with my kids more than anything. This career is not worth the sacrifice.

Background: I went to a t-14 and am a 6th year associate at a firm that pays Cravath. I started out at a big firm and hated the hours and wanted to spend more time with family so I took a huge pay cut to work at a regional firm in a flyover state (my wife's home state). Frankly, the hours weren't THAT much better. I took a 50% pay cut (before bonus) to work 90% of the hours. The truth is, firms make you do the work if it's there to be done. So after the market moved again (from 160 to 180) with bigger bonuses, I decided to move back to a big firm just to finish paying of my loans faster.

I can't tell you all the holidays I've worked over the years. Three Christmas Eves; multiple Thanksgivings. My whole extended family went to a popular lake for Memorial Day once and I spent the whole time inside working. 4th of July. Just this last week, billed 7 hours on Labor Day. Last night I stayed up til 1:00, woke up at 4:00. I mean, I've never had a vacation where I didn't work.

You probably underestimate how much debt you'll incur, and also how hard it is to finish top third. And there's a huge opportunity cost to going to law school; plus law school itself is a pain in the ass.

Just some thoughts from a flabby but formerly fit emotionally dead and extremely tired associate who just wants a nice weekend with my family. My loans will be paid off in one year. The countdown is on.

So, what’s next? You’ve tried the smaller firm route and that was a flop, so do you have any idea what you’ll do once you are no longer dependent on your biglaw income?