Why is it allowed to discriminate against introverts? Forum

[Anonymous User]

It is an inate trait that cannot be changed and the person has no control over. However, hiring decisions can be made based on it because you think people will be uncomfortable around them and they will not be a good fit. However, things such as race, gender, sexuality and religion make people uncomfortable in a work environment and it might make someone a bad 'fit', but it is found out a hiring decision was based on those qualities you will be in a world of a trouble.

[Anonymous User]

Law firms don't discriminate against introverts. Have you met actual lawyers? Here are videos of top litigators arguing before the Ninth Circuit. An amalgam of nerds and dorks. https://www.youtube.com/user/9thcirc If anything they discriminate against extroverts.

[objctnyrhnr]

ITT, OP asks why employers should be legally permitted not to hire people who don’t interview well.

[ReganSays]

Because being an introvert may impact how you perform your job. The legal industry is a service industry. This means that your primary job is attending to your clients’ needs. How you handle yourself with other people is a crucial component of the job. So if you’re awkward in job interviews, those interviewing you may think you’ll be awkward with clients. That’s a decision based on how well they believe you can perform the job- and hiring decisions are absolutely able to be made based on ability to perform the job.

Second, introversion is a personality trait but it can be both masked and changed. I’m an introvert but I know how to be social and charming in job interviews and with clients/colleagues/people in general. I’m exhausted when I get home and need alone time to recharge, but I do it.

To be honest, it sounds like you’re hiding behind this label of introvert. It sucks and it’s harder for us than for extroverts, but you can learn how to perform with clients/interviewers. I know you may think the role of a junior associate doesn’t need to be good with clients but I would argue that as a junior associate your clients are the senior associates and partners above you. They need to be confident in your ability to get the job done and if you’re awkward with them they will question your ability to communicate efficiently and effectively.

The TL;DR is that you can change how you present yourself, even if you’re an introvert. It’s taxinf mentally and emotionally but it’s 100% doable. It isn’t a disability or an immutable characteristic in the legal sense of the word immutable. Don’t hide behind being an introvert/use it as an excuse for other people not hiring you. Work on improving yourself and your interviewing skills.

[nixy]

Because it can be changed and you do have control over it. You don't have to turn into a raging extrovert in every aspect of your life; you just have to be able to show, for the length of an interview, that you can work with other people in jobs. You put on a performance for the half-hour to few hours of the interview. It's absolutely doable (which is not the case with the truly innate characteristics you list).

(lots of other posts before mine, sorry, haven't read them yet)

[nixy]

Law firms don't discriminate against introverts. Have you met actual lawyers? Here are videos of top litigators arguing before the Ninth Circuit. An amalgam of nerds and dorks. https://www.youtube.com/user/9thcirc If anything they discriminate against extroverts.

So I actually kind of agree that discrimination against introverts isn't really a thing, but this is also sort of silly, because only a small percentage of lawyers are going to argue before the 9th Circuit and they absolutely aren't representative of the profession as a whole. (That said, the appellate guru in my office is one of the most outgoing people I've ever met. Not sure oral argument tells you much about someone's social orientation.)

[Mockingbird42]

It’s ok to discriminate against introverts because the label is pop psychology and not a medically accepted classification.

[SayNoToScalia]

When making any differentiation whatsoever among people, for the purpose of giving some people something and turning others away, you are discriminating. The question is always what you're discriminating based on. Race, gender, etc., are not legitimate bases for discrimination because they do not actually tell you anything about the person. But introvert (however defined) is a personality trait, and someone seeking to have a highly social office of team players who naturally get along well with others is obviously going to discriminate based on a person's personality. Personality may be innate, but the question is not whether a trait is innate, but whether it is relevant to a person's ability to add value to the company (which is not the same as the mere ability to do the work, but has also to do with the ability to help the whole team work better).

[QContinuum]

It is an inate trait that cannot be changed and the person has no control over. However, hiring decisions can be made based on it because you think people will be uncomfortable around them and they will not be a good fit. However, things such as race, gender, sexuality and religion make people uncomfortable in a work environment and it might make someone a bad 'fit', but it is found out a hiring decision was based on those qualities you will be in a world of a trouble.

One, based on my observations I don't think introverts face any special disadvantage in BigLaw hiring (I say "BigLaw hiring" only because I can't really speak to non-BigLaw hiring). Many (possibly even most) BigLawyers are openly introverted, and if anything they'd click better with introverted interviewees than "life-of-the-party" types.

Two, OP's naive if s/he thinks the bans on race/gender/etc. discrimination are actually all that effective. All the bans really do is force racists/sexists/etc. to slap some lipstick on the pig ("bad fit" instead of "I don't want to work with black people").

[pleasedonttouchmyRAP]

Introversion and extraversion are just preferred/natural states. It has nothing to do with how you interact with other people; it's just whether you prefer to do it or not. There are plenty of socially-adept introverts and socially-inept extraverts.

[Anonymous User]

Sometime in the last 3-5 years, a bunch of nebbish dorks figured they could make their awkward, neurotic, anti-social, compulsive behavior somewhat more socially acceptable if they just started describing themselves as introverted. It seems to have worked to some degree. But introversion isn't really anyone's problem, it's just some people who happen to be introverted but are also misanthropic, hermetic depressives.

Oh, and stop reposting those fucking Buzzfeed lists on FB.

[acr]

It is an inate trait that cannot be changed and the person has no control over. However, hiring decisions can be made based on it because you think people will be uncomfortable around them and they will not be a good fit. However, things such as race, gender, sexuality and religion make people uncomfortable in a work environment and it might make someone a bad 'fit', but it is found out a hiring decision was based on those qualities you will be in a world of a trouble.

Because it's not an innate trait that can't be controlled. Change yourself, stop blaming a service-oriented profession for not accommodating your personality choices.

[stepney]

r/legaladvice - "No one wants to hang out with me - am I a suspect class?"

[Anonymous User]

There's a difference between being extroverted and being sociable.

I am introverted, but I am social and pleasant at gatherings and meetings.

It's a professional skill we all improve over time.

Don't play the victim card.

[worklifewhat]

It is an inate trait that cannot be changed and the person has no control over. However, hiring decisions can be made based on it because you think people will be uncomfortable around them and they will not be a good fit. However, things such as race, gender, sexuality and religion make people uncomfortable in a work environment and it might make someone a bad 'fit', but it is found out a hiring decision was based on those qualities you will be in a world of a trouble.

You comparing “discrimination” against introverts to discrimination between actual suspect classes is kids Nd of mind boggling to me. But even worse is you belief that “things such as race, gender, sexuality and religion make people uncomfortable in a work environment and it might make someone a bad 'fit'[.]” If you don’t understand how these are different, I recommend that you retake constitutional law and maybe diversify your peer group so that you can learn to empathize with victims of discrimination.

[Anonymous User]

It is an inate trait that cannot be changed and the person has no control over. However, hiring decisions can be made based on it because you think people will be uncomfortable around them and they will not be a good fit. However, things such as race, gender, sexuality and religion make people uncomfortable in a work environment and it might make someone a bad 'fit', but it is found out a hiring decision was based on those qualities you will be in a world of a trouble.

You comparing “discrimination” against introverts to discrimination between actual suspect classes is kids Nd of mind boggling to me. But even worse is you belief that “things such as race, gender, sexuality and religion make people uncomfortable in a work environment and it might make someone a bad 'fit'[.]” If you don’t understand how these are different, I recommend that you retake constitutional law and maybe diversify your peer group so that you can learn to empathize with victims of discrimination.

this is OP. I'm black.

[worklifewhat]

It is an inate trait that cannot be changed and the person has no control over. However, hiring decisions can be made based on it because you think people will be uncomfortable around them and they will not be a good fit. However, things such as race, gender, sexuality and religion make people uncomfortable in a work environment and it might make someone a bad 'fit', but it is found out a hiring decision was based on those qualities you will be in a world of a trouble.

You comparing “discrimination” against introverts to discrimination between actual suspect classes is kids Nd of mind boggling to me. But even worse is you belief that “things such as race, gender, sexuality and religion make people uncomfortable in a work environment and it might make someone a bad 'fit'[.]” If you don’t understand how these are different, I recommend that you retake constitutional law and maybe diversify your peer group so that you can learn to empathize with victims of discrimination.

this is OP. I'm black.

Then either you were being completely hyperbolic in labeling what introverts face as discrimination or you've lived a privileged life. That introverts have a more difficult time securing jobs in a client-serving industry is not at all comparable to discriminating against individuals on the basis of race, gender, sexuality, or religion. Please tell me you see a problem with your question.

[Anonymous User]

It is an inate trait that cannot be changed and the person has no control over. However, hiring decisions can be made based on it because you think people will be uncomfortable around them and they will not be a good fit. However, things such as race, gender, sexuality and religion make people uncomfortable in a work environment and it might make someone a bad 'fit', but it is found out a hiring decision was based on those qualities you will be in a world of a trouble.

You comparing “discrimination” against introverts to discrimination between actual suspect classes is kids Nd of mind boggling to me. But even worse is you belief that “things such as race, gender, sexuality and religion make people uncomfortable in a work environment and it might make someone a bad 'fit'[.]” If you don’t understand how these are different, I recommend that you retake constitutional law and maybe diversify your peer group so that you can learn to empathize with victims of discrimination.

this is OP. I'm black.

Then either you were being completely hyperbolic in labeling what introverts face as discrimination or you've lived a privileged life. That introverts have a more difficult time securing jobs in a client-serving industry is not at all comparable to discriminating against individuals on the basis of race, gender, sexuality, or religion. Please tell me you see a problem with your question.

I never stated that introverts face more or equal discrimination as other groups, I simply stated people can discriminate against introverts with no repercussions legally or socially. Look at all the insults that have been tossed in this thread, introverts have been called misantropes, nerds, dweebs, depressive, etc. All this simply because some people have personality traits that the majority thinks to be inadequate because it's different from them. I'm familiar with that train of thinking all too well.

[nixy]

Dude, no. People have said that you're using introvert as a label for the socially awkward. Being an introvert and being socially awkward aren't the same thing and plenty of introverts do just fine in interviews.

Or to put this another way - what specific introvert personality traits exactly do you believe you're displaying in interviews, over which you have no control, and against which interviewers are discriminating?

(Also, see the post that pointed out that people discriminate all the time and it's not in itself a problem. Not letting people get drivers' licenses until they're 16 discriminates on the basis of age. People hiring actors discriminate against people who can't act. People hiring interpreters discriminate against people who can't speak a foreign language. Etc.)

[Anonymous User]

It is an inate trait that cannot be changed and the person has no control over. However, hiring decisions can be made based on it because you think people will be uncomfortable around them and they will not be a good fit. However, things such as race, gender, sexuality and religion make people uncomfortable in a work environment and it might make someone a bad 'fit', but it is found out a hiring decision was based on those qualities you will be in a world of a trouble.

You comparing “discrimination” against introverts to discrimination between actual suspect classes is kids Nd of mind boggling to me. But even worse is you belief that “things such as race, gender, sexuality and religion make people uncomfortable in a work environment and it might make someone a bad 'fit'[.]” If you don’t understand how these are different, I recommend that you retake constitutional law and maybe diversify your peer group so that you can learn to empathize with victims of discrimination.

this is OP. I'm black.

Then either you were being completely hyperbolic in labeling what introverts face as discrimination or you've lived a privileged life. That introverts have a more difficult time securing jobs in a client-serving industry is not at all comparable to discriminating against individuals on the basis of race, gender, sexuality, or religion. Please tell me you see a problem with your question.

I never stated that introverts face more or equal discrimination as other groups, I simply stated people can discriminate against introverts with no repercussions legally or socially. Look at all the insults that have been tossed in this thread, introverts have been called misantropes, nerds, dweebs, depressive, etc. All this simply because some people have personality traits that the majority thinks to be inadequate because it's different from them. I'm familiar with that train of thinking all too well.

OP, I think the problem you are having is that you don't really understand what an introvert is. It is not the same thing as being socially awkward or disliking social situations. The original definition of an introvert according to Carl Jung (who coined the term) is someone who gets tired from social situations rather than an extrovert who is energized and thrives off of social situations. It traditionally doesn't have anything to do with whether or not you even like social situations. For example, I'm an introvert. I feel like I have been hit by a truck when I come back from dinner with friends, but I still enjoy it.

As a result, interviewers don't discriminate based on introversion/extroversion because it can be surprisingly hard to classify from an outside observer (using the actual definition of introvert/extrovert). Discriminating against someone with poor social skills on the other hand, is more akin to discriminating against someone with poor writing skills. Some writers may not have an innate talent, but that can be overcome with training and practice.

I think the dismissive replies from this thread stem from a frustration I, and apparently others, have when people misuse the term to create an excuse to avoid social situations or improving social skills. The popular usage of introversion applies to a person's preference, not an immutable character trait.

[Anonymous User]

There is a big difference (to me at least) between socially awkward vs. introversion. You can be one or the other or both. It perfectly makes sense to not hire a socially awkward person in a law firm office. The work is highly social and client facing. It is a PEOPLE business.

[malibustacy]

OP, you must have failed Constitutional Law.

[encore1101]

For that matter, why is legal to discriminate against scorpios? I can't help it if my innate passion manifests as uncontrollable rage.