Clifford Chance HK v. Shearman NY Forum

[Anonymous User]

Corporate-leaning native Chinese speaker. My goal is to have a good balance of job security at least 3 years down the road (not having to worry too much about things I don't have control on, e.g. firm health, drastic change in immigration policy) & exit options.

NY means taking my chances with the H1B lottery one year down the road. Shearman does have HK/LDN offices and may be willing to relocate me to an overseas office should the visa situation doesn't work out, but I haven't gotten a definite answer from the HRs yet.

CC HK pays 1.5x NY market (low tax + big COLA), but from what I heard the US associates there only do Capital Markets, which is highly cyclical (or is it?), and the hours are also significantly worse than any NY biglaw.

Any insights would be greatly appreciated!

[2013]

Only go to HK if you’re perfectly fine not working in the US. There is no guarantee you will ever get a job in the US after.

Also, Shearman has large international offices, but don’t believe anything HR and partners tell you re: transferring you to another office if you don’t get a visa. They’d probably let you go instead.

I know it’s contradicting advice, but I’d lean towards going to HK because it’s a safer option.

[Anonymous User]

The above poster is not accurate regarding visa. To start, only very few people that I know of (among everyone in US biglaw that I know) were unfortunate to not get the H1B visa. Some of those few that failed to get H1B were sent by their firms to Hong Kong or some other foreign offices. Others lateraled to some other US/UK or local firms in Asia. Also, many firms give you a second shot at applying for H1B if you don't get one the first time. So visa shouldn't be a reason to choose one firm or the other unless you are choosing between two NYC firms with different visa policies.

You should decide whether you want to work in NYC or HK at the start of your career and then make your decision. Going to HK after starting out in NYC is much easier than starting out in HK and then going to NYC. If you want to work in NYC, taking the Clifford Chance option here would not make any sense.

[Anonymous User]

The incremental pay doesn't mean as much if you aren't happy living in Hong Kong and if you don't want to give up your opportunity to live and work in New York.

These firms have very similar reputations. Neither is prestigious in New York, but both are much more highly regarded in other major financial centers (e.g., London, Hong Kong, Singapore, Tokyo). Both do excellent cap markets work in Hong Kong.

The market in Hong Kong is cyclical and may very well turn. I wouldn't risk starting there and giving up the opportunity to learn the ropes in New York. You did a JD to become a U.S.-trained associate. When you go to HK, you're going to be cross-staffed on deals with England & Wales and Hong Kong-qualified attorneys. Why did you waste $300,000 getting a JD when you could have done a conversion course in the United Kingdom and gotten the same job?

[Anonymous User]

The incremental pay doesn't mean as much if you aren't happy living in Hong Kong and if you don't want to give up your opportunity to live and work in New York.

These firms have very similar reputations. Neither is prestigious in New York, but both are much more highly regarded in other major financial centers (e.g., London, Hong Kong, Singapore, Tokyo). Both do excellent cap markets work in Hong Kong.

The market in Hong Kong is cyclical and may very well turn. I wouldn't risk starting there and giving up the opportunity to learn the ropes in New York. You did a JD to become a U.S.-trained associate. When you go to HK, you're going to be cross-staffed on deals with England & Wales and Hong Kong-qualified attorneys. Why did you waste $300,000 getting a JD when you could have done a conversion course in the United Kingdom and gotten the same job?

I don't know what your definition of prestige is but in New York, to be accurate, Clifford Chance is a tier below Shearman.

[Anonymous User]

CC has a great reputation in Asia. See https://www.chambersandpartners.com/Asi ... ord-chance

I assume you are from China. If your goal is to have a career in Asia, CC is a great choice.

[Anonymous User]

I spent some time at a US firm in HK after starting in New York. It is pretty easy to go from NY to HK at almost any stage of the associate life cycle. It is very difficult to go from HK to NY if you change your mind. Shearman is not what it used to be from a prestige perspective, but it is a very well-respected name that will get you back to Asia if that is your ultimate goal.

Just my two cents, but unless you need to get back to Asia for personal reasons, you would have a big leg-up training wise if you spent a couple years in the US first. I have worked across from folks at CC and most other top firms in HK and the quality of work or ability to handle complex matters simply does not compare to what you see at their corresponding US offices. Most of the lawyers who have the skills for a long-term career at a partner/counsel level in Asia developed those in the US (or UK) first. The rest are just well-connected rainmakers who don't handle day to day work.

[Anonymous User]

The above poster is not accurate regarding visa. To start, only very few people that I know of (among everyone in US biglaw that I know) were unfortunate to not get the H1B visa. Some of those few that failed to get H1B were sent by their firms to Hong Kong or some other foreign offices. Others lateraled to some other US/UK or local firms in Asia. Also, many firms give you a second shot at applying for H1B if you don't get one the first time. So visa shouldn't be a reason to choose one firm or the other unless you are choosing between two NYC firms with different visa policies.

You should decide whether you want to work in NYC or HK at the start of your career and then make your decision. Going to HK after starting out in NYC is much easier than starting out in HK and then going to NYC. If you want to work in NYC, taking the Clifford Chance option here would not make any sense.

You’re not legally allowed to work in the US if you use up your OPT, so, yes, some firms allow associates to go to London/Asia for a year with the possibility of applying for the H1B again. I don’t think it’s as common as quoted anon says. And I know a few people who were shown the door when they didn’t get their H1B (3 people come to mind). At the end of the day, you’re disposable. Firms aren’t going to inconvenience themselves to assist you unless they have a need in the other office.

[fioneionewin]

Corporate-leaning native Chinese speaker. My goal is to have a good balance of job security at least 3 years down the road (not having to worry too much about things I don't have control on, e.g. firm health, drastic change in immigration policy) & exit options.

NY means taking my chances with the H1B lottery one year down the road. Shearman does have HK/LDN offices and may be willing to relocate me to an overseas office should the visa situation doesn't work out, but I haven't gotten a definite answer from the HRs yet.

CC HK pays 1.5x NY market (low tax + big COLA), but from what I heard the US associates there only do Capital Markets, which is highly cyclical (or is it?), and the hours are also significantly worse than any NY biglaw.

Any insights would be greatly appreciated!

I am actually in the exact same boat as you, with the only difference being that my other offer is for another magic circle firm in London. I'm an international student who's not from Hong Kong but am relatively fluent in Chinese. For personal reasons, I ultimately want to relocate back to my home country in Asia but am aware of the fact that while I can lateral from other markets to Asia, I won't be able to lateral from Asia back to other markets if things don't turn out as I've planned them.

Could OP DM me so we can talk about this? Would love to continue hearing what other people think as well.

[Anonymous User]

OP here. Thanks for all the information! You guys have been super helpful. I do prefer starting in NY given the training and experience, but my biggest fear is indeed being shown the door if I don't get the H1B. I don't know my chances of lateralling into HK/Singapore as a 1st year. If it's too impracticable, I can also live with settling down in HK once and for all. I don't have any personal reasons to back to Asia, but would prefer not going back to mainland China if it's at all possible.
I guess now I'm leaning more towards Shearman, maybe asking for a split between NY and HK from the get go and choosing a practice area that would make myself useful in HK to better my chance for potential relocation.

[Anonymous User]

OP here. Thanks for all the information! You guys have been super helpful. I do prefer starting in NY given the training and experience, but my biggest fear is indeed being shown the door if I don't get the H1B. I don't know my chances of lateralling into HK/Singapore as a 1st year. If it's too impracticable, I can also live with settling down in HK once and for all. I don't have any personal reasons to back to Asia, but would prefer not going back to mainland China if it's at all possible.
I guess now I'm leaning more towards Shearman, maybe asking for a split between NY and HK from the get go and choosing a practice area that would make myself useful in HK to better my chance for potential relocation.

Given that you've already got the offer from Shearman, you should also reach out to its HR on sponsorship policies and the firm's typical practice when you failed to get H1B. It's perfectly fine to address these topics with the firm at this stage. As for HK, I would say the market is more centred on capital market (for US attorneys, would be N share deals) other than general corporate work (say M&A).

[fioneionewin]

OP here. Thanks for all the information! You guys have been super helpful. I do prefer starting in NY given the training and experience, but my biggest fear is indeed being shown the door if I don't get the H1B. I don't know my chances of lateralling into HK/Singapore as a 1st year. If it's too impracticable, I can also live with settling down in HK once and for all. I don't have any personal reasons to back to Asia, but would prefer not going back to mainland China if it's at all possible.
I guess now I'm leaning more towards Shearman, maybe asking for a split between NY and HK from the get go and choosing a practice area that would make myself useful in HK to better my chance for potential relocation.

hi OP this is so stupid but because I've only been a member of this forum for a short period of time, I can't DM anybody as of now. Could you DM me again with an email or an alternative contact? Thanks!!

[Anonymous User]

OP, have you decided?