Cadwalader (NYC) v. Goodwin (NYC) Forum

[lebaneselawyer]

Hi all, I’ve looked at chambers, vault, NALP etc. as I’m trying to decide which offer to take. Both of my interviews were with friendly happy people. My only concern is that I’m not willling to completely write off litigation just yet and I know that Goodwin’s ligitation department is very small. I would love some insight from you all on which you would choose!

Thanks!

[Anonymous User]

My impression is this goes to Goodwin no contest based on firm health and future outlook as an associate. Cadwalader gets pooped on consistently here for its practices.

[Anonymous User]

Goodwin easily.

[Anonymous User]

Cadwalader has had some pretty bad partner/practice group defections over the last year or two and has responded by focusing more on their core practice areas, which are M+A and cap markets (heavily cyclical practice area). IMO, it will not survive the next downturn.

[Anonymous User]

No one in their right mind would go to Cad with another offer in hand.

[Anonymous User]

No one in their right mind would go to Cad with another offer in hand.

I want to stress this point. I got an offer from Cadwalader and another V50, and I turned down Cadwalader about 5 minutes after I got that second offer. All the associates I interviewed with seemed miserable and like they were just counting the days, and all of the partners I talked to were abrasive, rude, and judgmental. While you got some good interviewers, I just want to let you know that there are seemingly a lot of people that imo would be awful to work with/under. It is absolutely no surprise to me that Cadwalader is filled with screamers and a terrible culture.

[Anonymous User]

No one in their right mind would go to Cad with another offer in hand.

It is absolutely no surprise to me that Cadwalader is filled with screamers and a terrible culture.

I haven't worked with a single screamer in 2 years at Cadwalader. This is just false.

[jbagelboy]

Goodwin easily.

[Anonymous User]

It would appear I'm about to be facing this same choice coming out of OCI season. Anyone think things have changed over the last few years with Goodwin's stealth layoffs and relative calm at CWT?

[Anonymous User]

Goodwin easily.

[2013]

It would appear I'm about to be facing this same choice coming out of OCI season. Anyone think things have changed over the last few years with Goodwin's stealth layoffs and relative calm at CWT?

At the end of the day, Goodwin’s stealth layoffs appear to have been overblown. I’d still choose Goodwin.

[Anonymous User]

No one in their right mind would go to Cad with another offer in hand.

It is absolutely no surprise to me that Cadwalader is filled with screamers and a terrible culture.

I haven't worked with a single screamer in 2 years at Cadwalader. This is just false.

It's unfortunate that the reputation of CWT of years prior has continued on for so long. I don't know what the firm is actually like, but damn, anyone that has an offer from CWT is automatically told to never take it and I wonder if the hivemind is preventing genuine information from reaching potential associates

[Anonymous User]

Anonymous because my spouse used to work at Goodwin. Aside from its proclivity toward stealth layoffs (which is a serious issue), Goodwin is a relatively humane and decent place to work as biglaw firms go. Cadwalader, in contrast, has a toxic culture, specializes in some narrow transactional practices with correspondingly narrow exit options, and is not somewhere you should go with another offer in hand. I don't think it's close.

[Anonymous User]

I frequently work across from CWT. Goodwin is the easy choice, CWT associates have it roughhhh.

[existentialcrisis]

Anonymous because my spouse used to work at Goodwin. Aside from its proclivity toward stealth layoffs (which is a serious issue), Goodwin is a relatively humane and decent place to work as biglaw firms go. Cadwalader, in contrast, has a toxic culture, specializes in some narrow transactional practices with correspondingly narrow exit options, and is not somewhere you should go with another offer in hand. I don't think it's close.

I have no idea about CWT culture so I won’t weigh in on that.

What I will say is that I think the above anon hits the main issue, being that the areas Cad is particularly good at aren’t groups that I’d recommend joining in general.

While they call the group “Capital Markets” I’m pretty sure it’s just a securitization group, that won’t offer any of the public company exits you’d find in other firms’ Cap Markets/Securities group.

I also believe I’ve read on here that the same goes for their “Corporate” group which is mainly shareholder activism as opposed to M&A.

[Anonymous User]

Anonymous because my spouse used to work at Goodwin. Aside from its proclivity toward stealth layoffs (which is a serious issue), Goodwin is a relatively humane and decent place to work as biglaw firms go. Cadwalader, in contrast, has a toxic culture, specializes in some narrow transactional practices with correspondingly narrow exit options, and is not somewhere you should go with another offer in hand. I don't think it's close.

I have no idea about CWT culture so I won’t weigh in on that.

What I will say is that I think the above anon hits the main issue, being that the areas Cad is particularly good at aren’t groups that I’d recommend joining in general.

While they call the group “Capital Markets” I’m pretty sure it’s just a securitization group, that won’t offer any of the public company exits you’d find in other firms’ Cap Markets/Securities group.

I also believe I’ve read on here that the same goes for their “Corporate” group which is mainly shareholder activism as opposed to M&A.

Anon from above. Can confirm it looks like their cap markets group, or at least a large portion of it, exclusively works on CMBS and CLO deals from my experience. Luckily I only do that as a small portion of my practice, because the associates on those deals seem like they're going through hell.

[Anonymous User]

OP, how important is litigation to you? I can't really comment on lit at Goodwin, but I know that CWT has been building its lit group pretty heavily, including some pretty senior former Boies people, has a friendly, boutique-y feel, has had some really interesting white collar and antitrust matters recently, and is one of the firm's busiest groups. A lot about the CWT reputation, which is of dubious current accuracy anyways, concerns the transactional groups, not lit.

Also, the firm is financially healthy. The current offices have been steadily growing in size, though the firm as a whole took a headcount dip a few years ago when some smaller offices closed. Leverage is getting better since the firm increased its equity class size 20% this past year. And revenue is way up for 2021 so far, from what I've heard. If you are set on transactional, you definitely need to research the specific group carefully, since the group names are misleading and each group has very different cultures, and I would personally stay away from capital markets, although I would do so no matter where I was. If you are interested in litigation, I think Cadwalader is a really good choice to have.

[Anonymous User]

Anonymous because my spouse used to work at Goodwin. Aside from its proclivity toward stealth layoffs (which is a serious issue), Goodwin is a relatively humane and decent place to work as biglaw firms go. Cadwalader, in contrast, has a toxic culture, specializes in some narrow transactional practices with correspondingly narrow exit options, and is not somewhere you should go with another offer in hand. I don't think it's close.

Lol "my husband works at Goodwin, so that gives me insight into Cadwalader." I admire the degree of confidence you have in your insights about the culture of a firm you seemingly have not worked at. If you're just regurgitating what you read on message boards, then say that while acknowledging you don't know first-hand. People get enough bad advice and distorted information on here as it is.

I would also echo the above poster's feedback on their lit practice, though I cannot speak to the transactional groups. The Boies Schiller partners (and other great hires in the last year or two from elsewhere) have emphasized hands-on experience for junior associates and helped cultivate a more free-flowing, flat culture in litigation. But maybe first I should check with my significant other who works at Wilkie to see what they think, I'm sure they would know better from all the blogs and message boards they read.

[Anonymous User]

OP, how important is litigation to you? I can't really comment on lit at Goodwin, but I know that CWT has been building its lit group pretty heavily, including some pretty senior former Boies people, has a friendly, boutique-y feel, has had some really interesting white collar and antitrust matters recently, and is one of the firm's busiest groups. A lot about the CWT reputation, which is of dubious current accuracy anyways, concerns the transactional groups, not lit.

Also, the firm is financially healthy. The current offices have been steadily growing in size, though the firm as a whole took a headcount dip a few years ago when some smaller offices closed. Leverage is getting better since the firm increased its equity class size 20% this past year. And revenue is way up for 2021 so far, from what I've heard. If you are set on transactional, you definitely need to research the specific group carefully, since the group names are misleading and each group has very different cultures, and I would personally stay away from capital markets, although I would do so no matter where I was. If you are interested in litigation, I think Cadwalader is a really good choice to have.

Does anybody know when CWT hiring committee meets during the week?