Bad juniors Forum

[Anonymous User]

Hi guys-- So as a midlevel ~transactional associate, most of the juniors I have worked with have been fine (serviceable work product, eagerness to learn, etc.). However, my group recently hired a junior lateral (yes, they exist), and simply put, he has been driving me nuts. He misses simple deadlines, lacks follow through, and produces bad work (not merely in an analytical sense, but I mean basic grammar and spelling). Unfortunately he is staffed on multiple deals with me, and the impression I have from the partners is that I am supposed to ~lean in and train him. I really don't want to, or have the time (billed around 250 past 2 months) to hold his hand (and his shitty attitude makes me even less willing to). It should be fine once these deals close, but the practice group is relatively small such that I won't be able to just use other people. How do I handle this without it reflecting poorly on me?

[Anonymous User]

Have a talk with him and try to figure out what the problems are - are you contributing to his bad work products or shitty attitude in any way? Are you not giving him clear instructions or background deal info?

From your description you don't seem to be the type of mid level that would be the best to work with ("I really don't want to, or have the time", "handle this without it reflecting poorly on me", etc), but you can try to make this transition less painful for everyone.

[gregfootball2001]

Give them artificially early deadlines, and make them redo things that aren't right. They shouldn't make grammar and spelling mistakes. Send it back over email, explain that there are errors, and you need them to look it over again. If he misses a deadline, send an email asking where it is. Do everything over email. Don't be mean, just be matter-of-fact. On the other side of the spectrum, though, don't hand-hold, just get them to redo it. You don't have to do their work.

It sucks, but if you know they're late with things, and that they may need to do it twice, it's your job to make sure they get the final product done by the right date. You can talk about lateness and mistakes in a review, but during the deal, you need to staff things in a way so that things move smoothly. If that means that the junior's deadline is super early, so that they can miss it by a day and redo it, that's what it is.

After the deal, you should sit down with a partner and show them the multitude of emails where they had to redo things, or missed deadlines. They shouldn't be let off the hook. But if overall deadlines are missed because the person you delegated to was late or wrong, that's partially your fault as well.

[Anonymous User]

Hi guys-- So as a midlevel ~transactional associate, most of the juniors I have worked with have been fine (serviceable work product, eagerness to learn, etc.). However, my group recently hired a junior lateral (yes, they exist), and simply put, he has been driving me nuts. He misses simple deadlines, lacks follow through, and produces bad work (not merely in an analytical sense, but I mean basic grammar and spelling). Unfortunately he is staffed on multiple deals with me, and the impression I have from the partners is that I am supposed to ~lean in and train him. I really don't want to, or have the time (billed around 250 past 2 months) to hold his hand (and his shitty attitude makes me even less willing to). It should be fine once these deals close, but the practice group is relatively small such that I won't be able to just use other people. How do I handle this without it reflecting poorly on me?

I'm on the other side of this equation in my group (honestly wondering if the OP is a very exaggerated counter-perspective on me, though I have never been criticized for bad work, AFAIK, and some other stuff doesn't necessarily seem to jive either).

If you were the opposing midlevel/senior in my situation, and you said the above to my face, this is what I'd say: I'm trying to figure out what you want. Your group runs differently than my old group did, and while I have some experience doing what you do, my experience doesn't perfectly align with yours, and the culture of lawyers I came from was also very different than this group. If you communicate clearly to me, I will try to make you happy. But if you spring stuff on me out of the blue, with insane deadlines that are suspicious, or otherwise expect me to pick things by osmosis that aren't clear, I'm going to be more reluctant to do that. And ditto if you hide the ball or aren't being honest about what's going on.

Not sure if any of that's applicable, but hey, made me feel better about my situation.

[Anonymous User]

Hi guys-- So as a midlevel ~transactional associate, most of the juniors I have worked with have been fine (serviceable work product, eagerness to learn, etc.). However, my group recently hired a junior lateral (yes, they exist), and simply put, he has been driving me nuts. He misses simple deadlines, lacks follow through, and produces bad work (not merely in an analytical sense, but I mean basic grammar and spelling). Unfortunately he is staffed on multiple deals with me, and the impression I have from the partners is that I am supposed to ~lean in and train him. I really don't want to, or have the time (billed around 250 past 2 months) to hold his hand (and his shitty attitude makes me even less willing to). It should be fine once these deals close, but the practice group is relatively small such that I won't be able to just use other people. How do I handle this without it reflecting poorly on me?

I'm on the other side of this equation in my group (honestly wondering if the OP is a very exaggerated counter-perspective on me, though I have never been criticized for bad work, AFAIK, and some other stuff doesn't necessarily seem to jive either).

If you were the opposing midlevel/senior in my situation, and you said the above to my face, this is what I'd say: I'm trying to figure out what you want. Your group runs differently than my old group did, and while I have some experience doing what you do, my experience doesn't perfectly align with yours, and the culture of lawyers I came from was also very different than this group. If you communicate clearly to me, I will try to make you happy. But if you spring stuff on me out of the blue, with insane deadlines that are suspicious, or otherwise expect me to pick things by osmosis that aren't clear, I'm going to be more reluctant to do that. And ditto if you hide the ball or aren't being honest about what's going on.

Not sure if any of that's applicable, but hey, made me feel better about my situation.

Not OP, but counterpoint - if you're going to miss a deadline, you need to communicate to the senior that you're going to miss it, as far in advance of the deadline as you know. Even if the deadline's insane, you can't just miss it and tell someone sorry after the fact. Sometimes clients ask for crazy deadlines on things, too, it's not like it's the senior's fault.

You have no right to turn in documents with a ton of grammar and spelling mistakes, either.

I don't expect juniors to be geniuses but you have to care, and you have to realize when you're screwing someone else over.

[Anonymous User]

Hi guys-- So as a midlevel ~transactional associate, most of the juniors I have worked with have been fine (serviceable work product, eagerness to learn, etc.). However, my group recently hired a junior lateral (yes, they exist), and simply put, he has been driving me nuts. He misses simple deadlines, lacks follow through, and produces bad work (not merely in an analytical sense, but I mean basic grammar and spelling). Unfortunately he is staffed on multiple deals with me, and the impression I have from the partners is that I am supposed to ~lean in and train him. I really don't want to, or have the time (billed around 250 past 2 months) to hold his hand (and his shitty attitude makes me even less willing to). It should be fine once these deals close, but the practice group is relatively small such that I won't be able to just use other people. How do I handle this without it reflecting poorly on me?

I'm on the other side of this equation in my group (honestly wondering if the OP is a very exaggerated counter-perspective on me, though I have never been criticized for bad work, AFAIK, and some other stuff doesn't necessarily seem to jive either).

If you were the opposing midlevel/senior in my situation, and you said the above to my face, this is what I'd say: I'm trying to figure out what you want. Your group runs differently than my old group did, and while I have some experience doing what you do, my experience doesn't perfectly align with yours, and the culture of lawyers I came from was also very different than this group. If you communicate clearly to me, I will try to make you happy. But if you spring stuff on me out of the blue, with insane deadlines that are suspicious, or otherwise expect me to pick things by osmosis that aren't clear, I'm going to be more reluctant to do that. And ditto if you hide the ball or aren't being honest about what's going on.

Not sure if any of that's applicable, but hey, made me feel better about my situation.

Not OP, but counterpoint - if you're going to miss a deadline, you need to communicate to the senior that you're going to miss it, as far in advance of the deadline as you know. Even if the deadline's insane, you can't just miss it and tell someone sorry after the fact. Sometimes clients ask for crazy deadlines on things, too, it's not like it's the senior's fault.

You have no right to turn in documents with a ton of grammar and spelling mistakes, either.

I don't expect juniors to be geniuses but you have to care, and you have to realize when you're screwing someone else over.

First point is fair to the extent that it's a client- or partner- imposed deadline; when it's something the midlevel/senior pulls from nowhere, however, and they seem to do that on a consistent basis (or their stated justification isn't warranted by the facts of the situation), then yeah, I'm going to be less willing to play ball.

Never said I turned in documents with a ton of grammar and spelling mistakes. I try my best to turn in the best work I can in a given timeframe. Not sure where you got that from my post.

[Anonymous User]

First point is fair to the extent that it's a client- or partner- imposed deadline; when it's something the midlevel/senior pulls from nowhere, however, and they seem to do that on a consistent basis (or their stated justification isn't warranted by the facts of the situation), then yeah, I'm going to be less willing to play ball.

Never said I turned in documents with a ton of grammar and spelling mistakes. I try my best to turn in the best work I can in a given timeframe. Not sure where you got that from my post.

I'm not insulting you, I'm talking about OP's junior, who clearly has done those things.

Sometimes the deadlines really aren't totally artificial, though. It may not need to be done for another couple days, but maybe you're expecting another wave of documents/issues to pop up tomorrow and you or the senior won't have time to focus on this one fully then. In any event, you shouldn't take a passive-aggressive stance and miss a deadline completely without telling someone.

[Anonymous User]

I'm on the other side of this equation in my group (honestly wondering if the OP is a very exaggerated counter-perspective on me, though I have never been criticized for bad work, AFAIK, and some other stuff doesn't necessarily seem to jive either).

If you were the opposing midlevel/senior in my situation, and you said the above to my face, this is what I'd say: I'm trying to figure out what you want. Your group runs differently than my old group did, and while I have some experience doing what you do, my experience doesn't perfectly align with yours, and the culture of lawyers I came from was also very different than this group. If you communicate clearly to me, I will try to make you happy. But if you spring stuff on me out of the blue, with insane deadlines that are suspicious, or otherwise expect me to pick things by osmosis that aren't clear, I'm going to be more reluctant to do that. And ditto if you hide the ball or aren't being honest about what's going on.

Not sure if any of that's applicable, but hey, made me feel better about my situation.

I understand where you are coming from since I had many of the same thoughts as a junior. When you become a senior associate you will realize that work that you thought as a junior “comes out of nowhere” is often prompted by unreasonably late client demands or neurotic partners. Work assignments are unclear or seem pointless and frustrating, this happens because the senior associate is handing off the work to you because they are juggling 10 other balls and are relying on you to troubleshoot and ask the questions that need to be asked so the assignment is clear. There are days when I am dealing with client/partner requests from the time I wake up to the time I pass out at night and just need to send work down to junior associates and hope that they get it and can advance the ball.

Artificial deadlines are often the result of a senior associate having been burned before (often by a junior who decides early on biglaw is not for them) or the fact that with some matters work gets passed between multiple supervisors (jr. partner > sr. Partner > co-counsel > bunch of lawyers and in-house client people) and so you need to build in plenty of time to review the junior’s work and for them to review and come back to you with comments.

IME, many out of the blue emails and assignments result from the fact that there are certain partners who will not, as a matter of practice, interact with a junior associate when there is a senior on the case, and thus even the most banal requests and responses need to be directed through the senior associate which makes the senior associate responsible for everything. This often breeds resentment from junior associates who don’t have any clue how their work fits into the grand scheme of the case and resent the micromanagement and hand-holding.

[jman77]

I'm on the other side of this equation in my group (honestly wondering if the OP is a very exaggerated counter-perspective on me, though I have never been criticized for bad work, AFAIK, and some other stuff doesn't necessarily seem to jive either).

If you were the opposing midlevel/senior in my situation, and you said the above to my face, this is what I'd say: I'm trying to figure out what you want. Your group runs differently than my old group did, and while I have some experience doing what you do, my experience doesn't perfectly align with yours, and the culture of lawyers I came from was also very different than this group. If you communicate clearly to me, I will try to make you happy. But if you spring stuff on me out of the blue, with insane deadlines that are suspicious, or otherwise expect me to pick things by osmosis that aren't clear, I'm going to be more reluctant to do that. And ditto if you hide the ball or aren't being honest about what's going on.

Not sure if any of that's applicable, but hey, made me feel better about my situation.

I understand where you are coming from since I had many of the same thoughts as a junior. When you become a senior associate you will realize that work that you thought as a junior “comes out of nowhere” is often prompted by unreasonably late client demands or neurotic partners. Work assignments are unclear or seem pointless and frustrating, this happens because the senior associate is handing off the work to you because they are juggling 10 other balls and are relying on you to troubleshoot and ask the questions that need to be asked so the assignment is clear. There are days when I am dealing with client/partner requests from the time I wake up to the time I pass out at night and just need to send work down to junior associates and hope that they get it and can advance the ball.

Artificial deadlines are often the result of a senior associate having been burned before (often by a junior who decides early on biglaw is not for them) or the fact that with some matters work gets passed between multiple supervisors (jr. partner > sr. Partner > co-counsel > bunch of lawyers and in-house client people) and so you need to build in plenty of time to review the junior’s work and for them to review and come back to you with comments.

IME, many out of the blue emails and assignments result from the fact that there are certain partners who will not, as a matter of practice, interact with a junior associate when there is a senior on the case, and thus even the most banal requests and responses need to be directed through the senior associate which makes the senior associate responsible for everything. This often breeds resentment from junior associates who don’t have any clue how their work fits into the grand scheme of the case and resent the micromanagement and hand-holding.

Couldn't have said it better (right down to not even having time to catch one's breath from waking time to passing out time), except to echo what others have already said that it's not your call to "not play ball" when it comes to deadlines, regardless of how unreasonable you may perceive it to be (as noted above, as you get more senior and see how these deadlines get passed down the line from client all the way down to you, you will probably look back and change your perception retroactively). If you believe you're not going to make a deadline, you have to clearly communicate that fact and be able to provide a valid reason as soon as possible (hint: "I don't want to work this weekend/through the night is not a valid reason.").

[Anonymous User]

Hi guys-- So as a midlevel ~transactional associate, most of the juniors I have worked with have been fine (serviceable work product, eagerness to learn, etc.). However, my group recently hired a junior lateral (yes, they exist), and simply put, he has been driving me nuts. He misses simple deadlines, lacks follow through, and produces bad work (not merely in an analytical sense, but I mean basic grammar and spelling). Unfortunately he is staffed on multiple deals with me, and the impression I have from the partners is that I am supposed to ~lean in and train him. I really don't want to, or have the time (billed around 250 past 2 months) to hold his hand (and his shitty attitude makes me even less willing to). It should be fine once these deals close, but the practice group is relatively small such that I won't be able to just use other people. How do I handle this without it reflecting poorly on me?

I'm on the other side of this equation in my group (honestly wondering if the OP is a very exaggerated counter-perspective on me, though I have never been criticized for bad work, AFAIK, and some other stuff doesn't necessarily seem to jive either).

If you were the opposing midlevel/senior in my situation, and you said the above to my face, this is what I'd say: I'm trying to figure out what you want. Your group runs differently than my old group did, and while I have some experience doing what you do, my experience doesn't perfectly align with yours, and the culture of lawyers I came from was also very different than this group. If you communicate clearly to me, I will try to make you happy. But if you spring stuff on me out of the blue, with insane deadlines that are suspicious, or otherwise expect me to pick things by osmosis that aren't clear, I'm going to be more reluctant to do that. And ditto if you hide the ball or aren't being honest about what's going on.

Not sure if any of that's applicable, but hey, made me feel better about my situation.

Not OP, but counterpoint - if you're going to miss a deadline, you need to communicate to the senior that you're going to miss it, as far in advance of the deadline as you know. Even if the deadline's insane, you can't just miss it and tell someone sorry after the fact. Sometimes clients ask for crazy deadlines on things, too, it's not like it's the senior's fault.

You have no right to turn in documents with a ton of grammar and spelling mistakes, either.

I don't expect juniors to be geniuses but you have to care, and you have to realize when you're screwing someone else over.

First point is fair to the extent that it's a client- or partner- imposed deadline; when it's something the midlevel/senior pulls from nowhere, however, and they seem to do that on a consistent basis (or their stated justification isn't warranted by the facts of the situation), then yeah, I'm going to be less willing to play ball.

Never said I turned in documents with a ton of grammar and spelling mistakes. I try my best to turn in the best work I can in a given timeframe. Not sure where you got that from my post.

Corporate junior here. I always try to ask for deadlines, but I don't ever question them, other than to try to understand the big picture of what's happening in the deal, not to complain to try to get out of having to work late. That's the shit that we signed up for, and we're paid plenty well that dealing with "artificial" deadlines is a small ask.

Based on the bolded/underlined, you're probably also a bad junior. As a junior it's not your call when to play ball.

Maybe the senior associate wants work turned in from you ASAP tonight, even if it's not due for a week, because he wants to review it from midnight-4am tonight, knowing that the rest of his week is stacked with calls and other work, and he needs some cushion in case your work product needs major changes, and needs to know that in advance so he can build the necessary time in his schedule to correct it, or send it back to you with enough time for you to fix it and then still have enough time for him to review your next draft.

It's also not their job to "justify" the reason for the deadline to you. You're a junior and you bill by the hour. Fall in line, do what you're told, and pretend to be excited to have the opportunity.

[Anonymous User]

Hi guys-- So as a midlevel ~transactional associate, most of the juniors I have worked with have been fine (serviceable work product, eagerness to learn, etc.). However, my group recently hired a junior lateral (yes, they exist), and simply put, he has been driving me nuts. He misses simple deadlines, lacks follow through, and produces bad work (not merely in an analytical sense, but I mean basic grammar and spelling). Unfortunately he is staffed on multiple deals with me, and the impression I have from the partners is that I am supposed to ~lean in and train him. I really don't want to, or have the time (billed around 250 past 2 months) to hold his hand (and his shitty attitude makes me even less willing to). It should be fine once these deals close, but the practice group is relatively small such that I won't be able to just use other people. How do I handle this without it reflecting poorly on me?

I'm on the other side of this equation in my group (honestly wondering if the OP is a very exaggerated counter-perspective on me, though I have never been criticized for bad work, AFAIK, and some other stuff doesn't necessarily seem to jive either).

If you were the opposing midlevel/senior in my situation, and you said the above to my face, this is what I'd say: I'm trying to figure out what you want. Your group runs differently than my old group did, and while I have some experience doing what you do, my experience doesn't perfectly align with yours, and the culture of lawyers I came from was also very different than this group. If you communicate clearly to me, I will try to make you happy. But if you spring stuff on me out of the blue, with insane deadlines that are suspicious, or otherwise expect me to pick things by osmosis that aren't clear, I'm going to be more reluctant to do that. And ditto if you hide the ball or aren't being honest about what's going on.

Not sure if any of that's applicable, but hey, made me feel better about my situation.

Not OP, but counterpoint - if you're going to miss a deadline, you need to communicate to the senior that you're going to miss it, as far in advance of the deadline as you know. Even if the deadline's insane, you can't just miss it and tell someone sorry after the fact. Sometimes clients ask for crazy deadlines on things, too, it's not like it's the senior's fault.

You have no right to turn in documents with a ton of grammar and spelling mistakes, either.

I don't expect juniors to be geniuses but you have to care, and you have to realize when you're screwing someone else over.

First point is fair to the extent that it's a client- or partner- imposed deadline; when it's something the midlevel/senior pulls from nowhere, however, and they seem to do that on a consistent basis (or their stated justification isn't warranted by the facts of the situation), then yeah, I'm going to be less willing to play ball.

Never said I turned in documents with a ton of grammar and spelling mistakes. I try my best to turn in the best work I can in a given timeframe. Not sure where you got that from my post.

Corporate junior here. I always try to ask for deadlines, but I don't ever question them, other than to try to understand the big picture of what's happening in the deal, not to complain to try to get out of having to work late. That's the shit that we signed up for, and we're paid plenty well that dealing with "artificial" deadlines is a small ask.

Based on the bolded/underlined, you're probably also a bad junior. As a junior it's not your call when to play ball.

Maybe the senior associate wants work turned in from you ASAP tonight, even if it's not due for a week, because he wants to review it from midnight-4am tonight, knowing that the rest of his week is stacked with calls and other work, and he needs some cushion in case your work product needs major changes, and needs to know that in advance so he can build the necessary time in his schedule to correct it, or send it back to you with enough time for you to fix it and then still have enough time for him to review your next draft.

It's also not their job to "justify" the reason for the deadline to you. You're a junior and you bill by the hour. Fall in line, do what you're told, and pretend to be excited to have the opportunity.

Based on the bolded/underlined, you're probably a "good" junior but a terrible human being, the type of person that drank so much big law coolaid that you don't even realize it. But when it comes down partnership track you'll never make it, because it's too late to realize that you did not develop any skill but good at following instructions.

[Anonymous User]

Hi guys-- So as a midlevel ~transactional associate, most of the juniors I have worked with have been fine (serviceable work product, eagerness to learn, etc.). However, my group recently hired a junior lateral (yes, they exist), and simply put, he has been driving me nuts. He misses simple deadlines, lacks follow through, and produces bad work (not merely in an analytical sense, but I mean basic grammar and spelling). Unfortunately he is staffed on multiple deals with me, and the impression I have from the partners is that I am supposed to ~lean in and train him. I really don't want to, or have the time (billed around 250 past 2 months) to hold his hand (and his shitty attitude makes me even less willing to). It should be fine once these deals close, but the practice group is relatively small such that I won't be able to just use other people. How do I handle this without it reflecting poorly on me?

I'm on the other side of this equation in my group (honestly wondering if the OP is a very exaggerated counter-perspective on me, though I have never been criticized for bad work, AFAIK, and some other stuff doesn't necessarily seem to jive either).

If you were the opposing midlevel/senior in my situation, and you said the above to my face, this is what I'd say: I'm trying to figure out what you want. Your group runs differently than my old group did, and while I have some experience doing what you do, my experience doesn't perfectly align with yours, and the culture of lawyers I came from was also very different than this group. If you communicate clearly to me, I will try to make you happy. But if you spring stuff on me out of the blue, with insane deadlines that are suspicious, or otherwise expect me to pick things by osmosis that aren't clear, I'm going to be more reluctant to do that. And ditto if you hide the ball or aren't being honest about what's going on.

Not sure if any of that's applicable, but hey, made me feel better about my situation.

Not OP, but counterpoint - if you're going to miss a deadline, you need to communicate to the senior that you're going to miss it, as far in advance of the deadline as you know. Even if the deadline's insane, you can't just miss it and tell someone sorry after the fact. Sometimes clients ask for crazy deadlines on things, too, it's not like it's the senior's fault.

You have no right to turn in documents with a ton of grammar and spelling mistakes, either.

I don't expect juniors to be geniuses but you have to care, and you have to realize when you're screwing someone else over.

First point is fair to the extent that it's a client- or partner- imposed deadline; when it's something the midlevel/senior pulls from nowhere, however, and they seem to do that on a consistent basis (or their stated justification isn't warranted by the facts of the situation), then yeah, I'm going to be less willing to play ball.

Never said I turned in documents with a ton of grammar and spelling mistakes. I try my best to turn in the best work I can in a given timeframe. Not sure where you got that from my post.

Corporate junior here. I always try to ask for deadlines, but I don't ever question them, other than to try to understand the big picture of what's happening in the deal, not to complain to try to get out of having to work late. That's the shit that we signed up for, and we're paid plenty well that dealing with "artificial" deadlines is a small ask.

Based on the bolded/underlined, you're probably also a bad junior. As a junior it's not your call when to play ball.

Maybe the senior associate wants work turned in from you ASAP tonight, even if it's not due for a week, because he wants to review it from midnight-4am tonight, knowing that the rest of his week is stacked with calls and other work, and he needs some cushion in case your work product needs major changes, and needs to know that in advance so he can build the necessary time in his schedule to correct it, or send it back to you with enough time for you to fix it and then still have enough time for him to review your next draft.

It's also not their job to "justify" the reason for the deadline to you. You're a junior and you bill by the hour. Fall in line, do what you're told, and pretend to be excited to have the opportunity.

I wish you had worked for me when I was still in biglaw! Totally the right attitude/outlook.

[Anonymous User]

Hi guys-- So as a midlevel ~transactional associate, most of the juniors I have worked with have been fine (serviceable work product, eagerness to learn, etc.). However, my group recently hired a junior lateral (yes, they exist), and simply put, he has been driving me nuts. He misses simple deadlines, lacks follow through, and produces bad work (not merely in an analytical sense, but I mean basic grammar and spelling). Unfortunately he is staffed on multiple deals with me, and the impression I have from the partners is that I am supposed to ~lean in and train him. I really don't want to, or have the time (billed around 250 past 2 months) to hold his hand (and his shitty attitude makes me even less willing to). It should be fine once these deals close, but the practice group is relatively small such that I won't be able to just use other people. How do I handle this without it reflecting poorly on me?

I'm on the other side of this equation in my group (honestly wondering if the OP is a very exaggerated counter-perspective on me, though I have never been criticized for bad work, AFAIK, and some other stuff doesn't necessarily seem to jive either).

If you were the opposing midlevel/senior in my situation, and you said the above to my face, this is what I'd say: I'm trying to figure out what you want. Your group runs differently than my old group did, and while I have some experience doing what you do, my experience doesn't perfectly align with yours, and the culture of lawyers I came from was also very different than this group. If you communicate clearly to me, I will try to make you happy. But if you spring stuff on me out of the blue, with insane deadlines that are suspicious, or otherwise expect me to pick things by osmosis that aren't clear, I'm going to be more reluctant to do that. And ditto if you hide the ball or aren't being honest about what's going on.

Not sure if any of that's applicable, but hey, made me feel better about my situation.

Not OP, but counterpoint - if you're going to miss a deadline, you need to communicate to the senior that you're going to miss it, as far in advance of the deadline as you know. Even if the deadline's insane, you can't just miss it and tell someone sorry after the fact. Sometimes clients ask for crazy deadlines on things, too, it's not like it's the senior's fault.

You have no right to turn in documents with a ton of grammar and spelling mistakes, either.

I don't expect juniors to be geniuses but you have to care, and you have to realize when you're screwing someone else over.

First point is fair to the extent that it's a client- or partner- imposed deadline; when it's something the midlevel/senior pulls from nowhere, however, and they seem to do that on a consistent basis (or their stated justification isn't warranted by the facts of the situation), then yeah, I'm going to be less willing to play ball.

Never said I turned in documents with a ton of grammar and spelling mistakes. I try my best to turn in the best work I can in a given timeframe. Not sure where you got that from my post.

Corporate junior here. I always try to ask for deadlines, but I don't ever question them, other than to try to understand the big picture of what's happening in the deal, not to complain to try to get out of having to work late. That's the shit that we signed up for, and we're paid plenty well that dealing with "artificial" deadlines is a small ask.

Based on the bolded/underlined, you're probably also a bad junior. As a junior it's not your call when to play ball.

Maybe the senior associate wants work turned in from you ASAP tonight, even if it's not due for a week, because he wants to review it from midnight-4am tonight, knowing that the rest of his week is stacked with calls and other work, and he needs some cushion in case your work product needs major changes, and needs to know that in advance so he can build the necessary time in his schedule to correct it, or send it back to you with enough time for you to fix it and then still have enough time for him to review your next draft.

It's also not their job to "justify" the reason for the deadline to you. You're a junior and you bill by the hour. Fall in line, do what you're told, and pretend to be excited to have the opportunity.

Based on the bolded/underlined, you're probably a "good" junior but a terrible human being, the type of person that drank so much big law coolaid that you don't even realize it. But when it comes down partnership track you'll never make it, because it's too late to realize that you did not develop any skill but good at following instructions.

I didn't say don't ask questions or try to learn. Just don't question the "motives" behind a deadline or the quality of the justification, because you're too cool to work nights and weekends (btw, that's a totally fine/legitimate outlook, and there's plenty of other jobs you could do where that's acceptable, they just don't pay biglaw rates). Just don't hate on those of us that actually want to try to hack it instead of mailing it in as a junior.

And, cool, yeah not worried about my partnership prospects at the moment, but whatever. It's alright, you're obviously too good for biglaw, and will go on to become wildly successful doing something else, I'm sure of it.

[LaLiLuLeLo]

lol some deadlines are absolutely bullshit and you’ll quickly learn which ones are okay to blow.

[Anonymous User]

Hi guys-- So as a midlevel ~transactional associate, most of the juniors I have worked with have been fine (serviceable work product, eagerness to learn, etc.). However, my group recently hired a junior lateral (yes, they exist), and simply put, he has been driving me nuts. He misses simple deadlines, lacks follow through, and produces bad work (not merely in an analytical sense, but I mean basic grammar and spelling). Unfortunately he is staffed on multiple deals with me, and the impression I have from the partners is that I am supposed to ~lean in and train him. I really don't want to, or have the time (billed around 250 past 2 months) to hold his hand (and his shitty attitude makes me even less willing to). It should be fine once these deals close, but the practice group is relatively small such that I won't be able to just use other people. How do I handle this without it reflecting poorly on me?

I'm on the other side of this equation in my group (honestly wondering if the OP is a very exaggerated counter-perspective on me, though I have never been criticized for bad work, AFAIK, and some other stuff doesn't necessarily seem to jive either).

If you were the opposing midlevel/senior in my situation, and you said the above to my face, this is what I'd say: I'm trying to figure out what you want. Your group runs differently than my old group did, and while I have some experience doing what you do, my experience doesn't perfectly align with yours, and the culture of lawyers I came from was also very different than this group. If you communicate clearly to me, I will try to make you happy. But if you spring stuff on me out of the blue, with insane deadlines that are suspicious, or otherwise expect me to pick things by osmosis that aren't clear, I'm going to be more reluctant to do that. And ditto if you hide the ball or aren't being honest about what's going on.

Not sure if any of that's applicable, but hey, made me feel better about my situation.

Not OP, but counterpoint - if you're going to miss a deadline, you need to communicate to the senior that you're going to miss it, as far in advance of the deadline as you know. Even if the deadline's insane, you can't just miss it and tell someone sorry after the fact. Sometimes clients ask for crazy deadlines on things, too, it's not like it's the senior's fault.

You have no right to turn in documents with a ton of grammar and spelling mistakes, either.

I don't expect juniors to be geniuses but you have to care, and you have to realize when you're screwing someone else over.

First point is fair to the extent that it's a client- or partner- imposed deadline; when it's something the midlevel/senior pulls from nowhere, however, and they seem to do that on a consistent basis (or their stated justification isn't warranted by the facts of the situation), then yeah, I'm going to be less willing to play ball.

Never said I turned in documents with a ton of grammar and spelling mistakes. I try my best to turn in the best work I can in a given timeframe. Not sure where you got that from my post.

Corporate junior here. I always try to ask for deadlines, but I don't ever question them, other than to try to understand the big picture of what's happening in the deal, not to complain to try to get out of having to work late. That's the shit that we signed up for, and we're paid plenty well that dealing with "artificial" deadlines is a small ask.

Based on the bolded/underlined, you're probably also a bad junior. As a junior it's not your call when to play ball.

Maybe the senior associate wants work turned in from you ASAP tonight, even if it's not due for a week, because he wants to review it from midnight-4am tonight, knowing that the rest of his week is stacked with calls and other work, and he needs some cushion in case your work product needs major changes, and needs to know that in advance so he can build the necessary time in his schedule to correct it, or send it back to you with enough time for you to fix it and then still have enough time for him to review your next draft.

It's also not their job to "justify" the reason for the deadline to you. You're a junior and you bill by the hour. Fall in line, do what you're told, and pretend to be excited to have the opportunity.

Based on the bolded/underlined, you're probably a "good" junior but a terrible human being, the type of person that drank so much big law coolaid that you don't even realize it. But when it comes down partnership track you'll never make it, because it's too late to realize that you did not develop any skill but good at following instructions.

I didn't say don't ask questions or try to learn. Just don't question the "motives" behind a deadline or the quality of the justification, because you're too cool to work nights and weekends (btw, that's a totally fine/legitimate outlook, and there's plenty of other jobs you could do where that's acceptable, they just don't pay biglaw rates). Just don't hate on those of us that actually want to try to hack it instead of mailing it in as a junior.

And, cool, yeah not worried about my partnership prospects at the moment, but whatever. It's alright, you're obviously too good for biglaw, and will go on to become wildly successful doing something else, I'm sure of it.

Some people just don't understand what it really means to be a team player and that you have to earn the right to question decisions. Also, doesn't literally everyone know going into biglaw that reasonableness along with personal freedom pretty much go out the door? Ymmv but that's what the fat stacks are for, aren't they?

[jman77]

lol some deadlines are absolutely bullshit and you’ll quickly learn which ones are okay to blow.

It is never ok to blow deadlines. It is ok to clarify/extend/negotiate deadlines with the person(s) giving the deadlines, but never ok to flat out blow them.

[jman77]

Hi guys-- So as a midlevel ~transactional associate, most of the juniors I have worked with have been fine (serviceable work product, eagerness to learn, etc.). However, my group recently hired a junior lateral (yes, they exist), and simply put, he has been driving me nuts. He misses simple deadlines, lacks follow through, and produces bad work (not merely in an analytical sense, but I mean basic grammar and spelling). Unfortunately he is staffed on multiple deals with me, and the impression I have from the partners is that I am supposed to ~lean in and train him. I really don't want to, or have the time (billed around 250 past 2 months) to hold his hand (and his shitty attitude makes me even less willing to). It should be fine once these deals close, but the practice group is relatively small such that I won't be able to just use other people. How do I handle this without it reflecting poorly on me?

I'm on the other side of this equation in my group (honestly wondering if the OP is a very exaggerated counter-perspective on me, though I have never been criticized for bad work, AFAIK, and some other stuff doesn't necessarily seem to jive either).

If you were the opposing midlevel/senior in my situation, and you said the above to my face, this is what I'd say: I'm trying to figure out what you want. Your group runs differently than my old group did, and while I have some experience doing what you do, my experience doesn't perfectly align with yours, and the culture of lawyers I came from was also very different than this group. If you communicate clearly to me, I will try to make you happy. But if you spring stuff on me out of the blue, with insane deadlines that are suspicious, or otherwise expect me to pick things by osmosis that aren't clear, I'm going to be more reluctant to do that. And ditto if you hide the ball or aren't being honest about what's going on.

Not sure if any of that's applicable, but hey, made me feel better about my situation.

Not OP, but counterpoint - if you're going to miss a deadline, you need to communicate to the senior that you're going to miss it, as far in advance of the deadline as you know. Even if the deadline's insane, you can't just miss it and tell someone sorry after the fact. Sometimes clients ask for crazy deadlines on things, too, it's not like it's the senior's fault.

You have no right to turn in documents with a ton of grammar and spelling mistakes, either.

I don't expect juniors to be geniuses but you have to care, and you have to realize when you're screwing someone else over.

First point is fair to the extent that it's a client- or partner- imposed deadline; when it's something the midlevel/senior pulls from nowhere, however, and they seem to do that on a consistent basis (or their stated justification isn't warranted by the facts of the situation), then yeah, I'm going to be less willing to play ball.

Never said I turned in documents with a ton of grammar and spelling mistakes. I try my best to turn in the best work I can in a given timeframe. Not sure where you got that from my post.

Corporate junior here. I always try to ask for deadlines, but I don't ever question them, other than to try to understand the big picture of what's happening in the deal, not to complain to try to get out of having to work late. That's the shit that we signed up for, and we're paid plenty well that dealing with "artificial" deadlines is a small ask.

Based on the bolded/underlined, you're probably also a bad junior. As a junior it's not your call when to play ball.

Maybe the senior associate wants work turned in from you ASAP tonight, even if it's not due for a week, because he wants to review it from midnight-4am tonight, knowing that the rest of his week is stacked with calls and other work, and he needs some cushion in case your work product needs major changes, and needs to know that in advance so he can build the necessary time in his schedule to correct it, or send it back to you with enough time for you to fix it and then still have enough time for him to review your next draft.

It's also not their job to "justify" the reason for the deadline to you. You're a junior and you bill by the hour. Fall in line, do what you're told, and pretend to be excited to have the opportunity.

Based on the bolded/underlined, you're probably a "good" junior but a terrible human being, the type of person that drank so much big law coolaid that you don't even realize it. But when it comes down partnership track you'll never make it, because it's too late to realize that you did not develop any skill but good at following instructions.

You're getting paid big-time money in large part because of all the BS you have to deal with, including what you perceive to be BS deadlines. Again, if you stay long enough in big law you will learn that very few of these deadlines are actually BS when considered within the context of everything that's going on with the deal/case (there are some that are actual BS). If you think you have to deal with BS deadlines from your midlevels/seniors, just wait until you have to deal with deadlines/constant calls directly from clients in addition to deadlines from the partners. As others have noted, seniors/midlevels will give you deadlines that are earlier than the "real" deadlines because they need to work in the time it will inevitably take to fix your work or ask you to fix your work before the deliverable is in good enough shape to send off to the partner/client (not necessarily because you're a bad associate, but because you don't know any better at this point in your career) on top of everything else they have on their plate.

Everyone has to deal with a lot of BS in this profession and everyone needs to distribute/share that BS somehow. Unfortunately, as a junior, you are the lowest person on the totem pole and don't have much leeway to share away the BS you receive. That's just the way it is.

[Anonymous User]

Based on the bolded/underlined, you're probably a "good" junior but a terrible human being, the type of person that drank so much big law coolaid that you don't even realize it. But when it comes down partnership track you'll never make it, because it's too late to realize that you did not develop any skill but good at following instructions.

Not that I care that much at this point, but just so everybody's clear--I'm the "other side of the equation" anon, but I didn't post this.

[Anonymous User]

lol some deadlines are absolutely bullshit and you’ll quickly learn which ones are okay to blow.

It is never ok to blow deadlines. It is ok to clarify/extend/negotiate deadlines with the person(s) giving the deadlines, but never ok to flat out blow them.

This is right. It is totally fine to ask for an extension. It is even fine do so because you don't want to work the weekend, and sometimes seniors just don't know what you have going on/don't anticipate how long an assignment will take. It is encouraged to discuss deadlines when you have other stuff that is more pressing - in fact I am more frustrated with juniors who don't alert me when they have other stuff going on and then turn in shoddy work product. You just might get push back and if that's the case then you have to meet the deadline since that's why you get paid the big bucks. This principle extends up the chain and gets even worse the more senior you are.

At my firm it is pretty rare to get a senior who will torture/haze you with bullshit deadlines, in fact I know more seniors (myself included) who will push back on partners if they feel their deadlines are unreasonably short and are forcing people to work the weekend/nights unnecessarily. (It is also very difficult to tell who those people are without getting burned a few times, often they are the folks who are the most outwardly nice).

[LaLiLuLeLo]

lol some deadlines are absolutely bullshit and you’ll quickly learn which ones are okay to blow.

It is never ok to blow deadlines. It is ok to clarify/extend/negotiate deadlines with the person(s) giving the deadlines, but never ok to flat out blow them.

Simply not true. And there are deadlines okay to blow because nobody will care. Like I said, you’ll quickly learn when this is the case.

[jman77]

lol some deadlines are absolutely bullshit and you’ll quickly learn which ones are okay to blow.

It is never ok to blow deadlines. It is ok to clarify/extend/negotiate deadlines with the person(s) giving the deadlines, but never ok to flat out blow them.

Simply not true. And there are deadlines okay to blow because nobody will care. Like I said, you’ll quickly learn when this is the case.

I don't know what law firm you're working at where it's ok to completely blow deadlines and what level you are at (your profile indicates you joined TLS in 2016), but at my firm and everywhere else I've worked (I had a previous career in a different but similar client-based field) it is/was never ok. Not meeting deadlines but giving notice/negotiating a new deadline in advance is very different from not meeting them and not even bothering to tell people you won't meet them.

There may not be any immediate repercussions (again, I don't know where you work), but it will have repercussions. Being known as the guy/gal who blows deadlines is never a good thing.

[LaLiLuLeLo]

lol some deadlines are absolutely bullshit and you’ll quickly learn which ones are okay to blow.

It is never ok to blow deadlines. It is ok to clarify/extend/negotiate deadlines with the person(s) giving the deadlines, but never ok to flat out blow them.

Simply not true. And there are deadlines okay to blow because nobody will care. Like I said, you’ll quickly learn when this is the case.

I don't know what law firm you're working at where it's ok to completely blow deadlines and what level you are at (your profile indicates you joined TLS in 2016), but at my firm and everywhere else I've worked (I had a previous career in a different but similar client-based field) it is/was never ok. Not meeting deadlines but giving notice/negotiating a new deadline in advance is very different from not meeting them and not even bothering to tell people you won't meet them.

There may not be any immediate repercussions (again, I don't know where you work), but it will have repercussions. Being known as the guy/gal who blows deadlines is never a good thing.

There are deadlines and there are deadlines. Don’t blow the deadline to get drafts out. Ok to blow the deadline for some dumb research question that you were told needed to be done tonight for a deal that’s barely out of the term sheet stage and said issue to be researched will be relevant in maybe 2-3 weeks. The senior/midlevel won’t notice or care.

And my career is doing just fine. Y’all are just some uptight weirdos.

[jman77]

lol some deadlines are absolutely bullshit and you’ll quickly learn which ones are okay to blow.

It is never ok to blow deadlines. It is ok to clarify/extend/negotiate deadlines with the person(s) giving the deadlines, but never ok to flat out blow them.

Simply not true. And there are deadlines okay to blow because nobody will care. Like I said, you’ll quickly learn when this is the case.

I don't know what law firm you're working at where it's ok to completely blow deadlines and what level you are at (your profile indicates you joined TLS in 2016), but at my firm and everywhere else I've worked (I had a previous career in a different but similar client-based field) it is/was never ok. Not meeting deadlines but giving notice/negotiating a new deadline in advance is very different from not meeting them and not even bothering to tell people you won't meet them.

There may not be any immediate repercussions (again, I don't know where you work), but it will have repercussions. Being known as the guy/gal who blows deadlines is never a good thing.

There are deadlines and there are deadlines. Don’t blow the deadline to get drafts out. Ok to blow the deadline for some dumb research question that you were told needed to be done tonight for a deal that’s barely out of the term sheet stage and said issue to be researched will be relevant in maybe 2-3 weeks. The senior/midlevel won’t notice or care.

And my career is doing just fine. Y’all are just some uptight weirdos.

No use speaking to a child (who is in all likelihood barely a second year), regardless of your presumed fine career. Just the fact that you've resorted to ad hominem attacks tells me all I need to know about you. Being a professional does not equate to being an "uptight weirdo." Good day.

[Person1111]

lol some deadlines are absolutely bullshit and you’ll quickly learn which ones are okay to blow.

It is never ok to blow deadlines. It is ok to clarify/extend/negotiate deadlines with the person(s) giving the deadlines, but never ok to flat out blow them.

Simply not true. And there are deadlines okay to blow because nobody will care. Like I said, you’ll quickly learn when this is the case.

I don't know what law firm you're working at where it's ok to completely blow deadlines and what level you are at (your profile indicates you joined TLS in 2016), but at my firm and everywhere else I've worked (I had a previous career in a different but similar client-based field) it is/was never ok. Not meeting deadlines but giving notice/negotiating a new deadline in advance is very different from not meeting them and not even bothering to tell people you won't meet them.

There may not be any immediate repercussions (again, I don't know where you work), but it will have repercussions. Being known as the guy/gal who blows deadlines is never a good thing.

There are deadlines and there are deadlines. Don’t blow the deadline to get drafts out. Ok to blow the deadline for some dumb research question that you were told needed to be done tonight for a deal that’s barely out of the term sheet stage and said issue to be researched will be relevant in maybe 2-3 weeks. The senior/midlevel won’t notice or care.

And my career is doing just fine. Y’all are just some uptight weirdos.

As a midlevel/senior associate (albeit in litigation), it is objectively correct that, with some people, there are some deadlines that you can blow without consequence. That said, it's not a good habit to develop and it's best to err on the side of not blowing deadlines.

[Anonymous User]

Hi guys-- So as a midlevel ~transactional associate, most of the juniors I have worked with have been fine (serviceable work product, eagerness to learn, etc.). However, my group recently hired a junior lateral (yes, they exist), and simply put, he has been driving me nuts. He misses simple deadlines, lacks follow through, and produces bad work (not merely in an analytical sense, but I mean basic grammar and spelling). Unfortunately he is staffed on multiple deals with me, and the impression I have from the partners is that I am supposed to ~lean in and train him. I really don't want to, or have the time (billed around 250 past 2 months) to hold his hand (and his shitty attitude makes me even less willing to). It should be fine once these deals close, but the practice group is relatively small such that I won't be able to just use other people. How do I handle this without it reflecting poorly on me?

I'm on the other side of this equation in my group (honestly wondering if the OP is a very exaggerated counter-perspective on me, though I have never been criticized for bad work, AFAIK, and some other stuff doesn't necessarily seem to jive either).

If you were the opposing midlevel/senior in my situation, and you said the above to my face, this is what I'd say: I'm trying to figure out what you want. Your group runs differently than my old group did, and while I have some experience doing what you do, my experience doesn't perfectly align with yours, and the culture of lawyers I came from was also very different than this group. If you communicate clearly to me, I will try to make you happy. But if you spring stuff on me out of the blue, with insane deadlines that are suspicious, or otherwise expect me to pick things by osmosis that aren't clear, I'm going to be more reluctant to do that. And ditto if you hide the ball or aren't being honest about what's going on.

Not sure if any of that's applicable, but hey, made me feel better about my situation.

I'm another mid-level in a small group that recently hired a junior lateral who has been underperforming, so maybe the 3 of us are all in the same group or junior laterals aren't as uncommon as we thought (and maybe are all terrible?). My advice to this particular underperforming junior would be to work within your deadlines. Hit them, yes, but also don't turn in work early or rush to turn it in as soon as you receive it. Proofread. Step away from your work product and come back to it. Think about the broader context before you do something or answer a question. Don't blow deadlines, period. Our practice is very demanding and admittedly different than what you were doing before, but you can't hide behind that for long. You need to own it and work harder to bridge that gap.