Just Fired from Biglaw - need advice Forum

[Anonymous User]

The axe has at last fell on my big law job. Now that I don't have much to do, I'm finding it really hard to approach job-searching a disciplined way. Can anyone who has successfully dealt with this give me some advice about what an action plan should look like? I have 3 months to find another job.

Right now I just wake up, go to a coffee shop, refine my resume, send it out to a few recruiters, and then head to the office to finish up my pro bono work. Then I go to the gym and watch TV in the evening. But I have this nagging feeling that I could be doing more, and that I'm not approaching this in a disciplined or organized way. Ideally I'd like to go to a litigation boutique.

Should I be aiming for a specific goal - like 3 networking emails a day, or 1 in-house/direct firm application a day or something?

Something else that's bothering me a bit is running into senior associates/partners who know my situation in the hallway. Though I'm at a giant firm, I do run into them occasionally, and they tend to either awkwardly wave hi, or flat out ignore me as if I'm not there. I don't know how to describe it, but it both hurts and makes me a bit angry. It's not like I ever did anything bad to them, and most people are pushed out eventually. Just because I'm pushed out now doesn't mean I won't be in a position to influence outside counsel hiring one day, so I don't understand why some people are so rude about it. A simple smile would have shown some basic courtesy. This is the mental cost of coming to the office when some people know my situation.

[Anonymous User]

What would you want to hear from a Senior Associate or Partner that knows the position you're in?

I've been expecting my walking papers for years now, but here I sit (literally).

[Omerta]

Go network with folks. At a lot of places, it'll be easier to get a job if you don't go through a recruiter, because the firm doesn't have to pay the recruiter's fee.

[Anonymous User]

Go network with folks. At a lot of places, it'll be easier to get a job if you don't go through a recruiter, because the firm doesn't have to pay the recruiter's fee.

Thanks Omreta. The thing with boutiques is that there are a lot of them in my city, and it’s hard to figure out which ones are hiring without going through recruiters. Am I supposed to ask every one of my contacts out to lunch and ask for boutique recommendations?

[Anonymous User]

What would you want to hear from a Senior Associate or Partner that knows the position you're in?

I've been expecting my walking papers for years now, but here I sit (literally).

If you have to ask, you’re probably not a decent person.

[Anonymous User]

How long did you expect it before it happened?

[tier4_partner]

How many years in? What happened?

[Anonymous User]

I was in this spot once.

You should be way over one application a day, at least at the beginning. Lateraling to another quality firm can take the entire severance period, and for many even that won't be enough. If you must, give you preferred firms a week or two head start, but don't wait for the top lit boutiques to make a decision a month or two in before applying to generic biglaw. You can shoot apps at in-house positions as well, but those tend to take longer and you'll just have to hope the company's hiring timeline lines up with yours. They're an add-on to the rest of your tasks.

And yes, it's super awkward when people in the know deliberately dodge you or become afraid to look you in the eyes in the hallway. I went into the office as little as possible while being a good enough soldier that I was in a spot to bargain for a couple of extra weeks of website time down the road.

[Anonymous User]

Go network with folks. At a lot of places, it'll be easier to get a job if you don't go through a recruiter, because the firm doesn't have to pay the recruiter's fee.

Thanks Omreta. The thing with boutiques is that there are a lot of them in my city, and it’s hard to figure out which ones are hiring without going through recruiters. Am I supposed to ask every one of my contacts out to lunch and ask for boutique recommendations?

I'm not sure what city you're in, but the good lit boutiques in my city are usually listed on NALP or just have a rep, you know? I meet people at bar association events, will cold-email partners who went to my school, etc. The whole thing is that particular firm might not be hiring, but hiring at boutiques can be less formal and structured than biglaw.

I don't think you need to ask every contact, but you can check and see if people are willing to ask around. For your best contacts, set up a lunch/coffee meeting or whatever.

[Anonymous User]

Go network with folks. At a lot of places, it'll be easier to get a job if you don't go through a recruiter, because the firm doesn't have to pay the recruiter's fee.

Thanks Omreta. The thing with boutiques is that there are a lot of them in my city, and it’s hard to figure out which ones are hiring without going through recruiters. Am I supposed to ask every one of my contacts out to lunch and ask for boutique recommendations?

I'm not sure what city you're in, but the good lit boutiques in my city are usually listed on NALP or just have a rep, you know? I meet people at bar association events, will cold-email partners who went to my school, etc. The whole thing is that particular firm might not be hiring, but hiring at boutiques can be less formal and structured than biglaw.

I don't think you need to ask every contact, but you can check and see if people are willing to ask around. For your best contacts, set up a lunch/coffee meeting or whatever.

Thanks, I'm in NYC. So far, I've been applying to boutiques via recruiters. There are a few top litigation boutiques, though knowing their culture, I'm not particularly keen on joining them. Maybe I should just apply though.

It sounds like I should be emailing these boutiques directly rather than going through recruiters?

[Anonymous User]

I was in this spot once.

You should be way over one application a day, at least at the beginning. Lateraling to another quality firm can take the entire severance period, and for many even that won't be enough. If you must, give you preferred firms a week or two head start, but don't wait for the top lit boutiques to make a decision a month or two in before applying to generic biglaw. You can shoot apps at in-house positions as well, but those tend to take longer and you'll just have to hope the company's hiring timeline lines up with yours. They're an add-on to the rest of your tasks.

And yes, it's super awkward when people in the know deliberately dodge you or become afraid to look you in the eyes in the hallway. I went into the office as little as possible while being a good enough soldier that I was in a spot to bargain for a couple of extra weeks of website time down the road.

Thank you, this is helpful. Can you please share about how you went about sending in applications and what your process looked like? So far, I've been relying on recruiters, but maybe I should be handling the applications myself.

[Anonymous User]

Can you explain a little about why or how you were fired? That's fascinating and terrifying to me-- I've always heard it was very difficult but not at all impossible to get fired. I'm so sorry that its happened to you, but if you can impart some wisdom on folks here I'm sure it would be immensely helpful to us all.

Good Luck!

[Npret]

The vultures always appear in these threads.
There is absolutely no reason to ask OP what happened hiding behind anonymity. People get pushed out for many reasons, more to do with the firm and business then their own work. The anon abuse on this forum is out of hand.

OP you need to be spending your time networking with as many people as possible. Three months is not a lot of time to find a job. Ask if the firm has a placement service that can help you, they usually do but may not offer it up front. Your focus should be getting resources to fund a job and staying in good graces of your firm to ask for extension if you need it. As long as you can show effort in looking and not causing waves, you might buy some needed time.

Don’t expect much from the other people in the office. They are worried about themselves.

[TheoO]

I was in this spot once.

You should be way over one application a day, at least at the beginning. Lateraling to another quality firm can take the entire severance period, and for many even that won't be enough. If you must, give you preferred firms a week or two head start, but don't wait for the top lit boutiques to make a decision a month or two in before applying to generic biglaw. You can shoot apps at in-house positions as well, but those tend to take longer and you'll just have to hope the company's hiring timeline lines up with yours. They're an add-on to the rest of your tasks.

And yes, it's super awkward when people in the know deliberately dodge you or become afraid to look you in the eyes in the hallway. I went into the office as little as possible while being a good enough soldier that I was in a spot to bargain for a couple of extra weeks of website time down the road.

Thank you, this is helpful. Can you please share about how you went about sending in applications and what your process looked like? So far, I've been relying on recruiters, but maybe I should be handling the applications myself.

What about your law school? Law schools usually have ways to help out alumni by connecting them with others. What about law school friends at other firms?

[Npret]

Can you explain a little about why or how you were fired? That's fascinating and terrifying to me-- I've always heard it was very difficult but not at all impossible to get fired. I'm so sorry that its happened to you, but if you can impart some wisdom on folks here I'm sure it would be immensely helpful to us all.

Good Luck!

Where did you hear this? Even great associates get pushed out if the firm doesn’t need them. If you think biglaw is a long term or stable career, you need to do more research.

The worst mistake would be to go to biglaw without a backup plan in mind and goals (financial and career) that you can use your biglaw experience to achieve.

[Anonymous User]

I was in this spot once.

You should be way over one application a day, at least at the beginning. Lateraling to another quality firm can take the entire severance period, and for many even that won't be enough. If you must, give you preferred firms a week or two head start, but don't wait for the top lit boutiques to make a decision a month or two in before applying to generic biglaw. You can shoot apps at in-house positions as well, but those tend to take longer and you'll just have to hope the company's hiring timeline lines up with yours. They're an add-on to the rest of your tasks.

And yes, it's super awkward when people in the know deliberately dodge you or become afraid to look you in the eyes in the hallway. I went into the office as little as possible while being a good enough soldier that I was in a spot to bargain for a couple of extra weeks of website time down the road.

Thank you, this is helpful. Can you please share about how you went about sending in applications and what your process looked like? So far, I've been relying on recruiters, but maybe I should be handling the applications myself.

I both self-applied and used a recruiter. I set out clearly up front with the recruiter that I had certain firms I was planning on applying to on my own, and that they should not submit my resume to those firms.

The best jobs recruiters can submit you for are a) those that are not publicly listed or b) those with partners that a recruiter has a connection to (even if publicly listed). Unfortunately, it can be difficult to discern those two from just random publicly available listings that the recruiter will dump your resume into (which has some benefit in terms of outsourcing work for you, but that's about it).

The lateral firm interview process usually consists of at least one callback-style interview, and for me sometimes had a screener-style and two callback-style interviews before a decision was made. You can probably expect at least a week at least between each step, sometimes more like a month (which is worthless when you're on a severance runway). Clearing conflicts at a big firm will probably take at least another couple of weeks, plus you need to "give your two weeks notice," so unless you can extend your website time, you need to have a conflict-contingent offer in hand by the end of month 2 in order to look like you left naturally at the end of month 3.

[jbagelboy]

Can you explain a little about why or how you were fired? That's fascinating and terrifying to me-- I've always heard it was very difficult but not at all impossible to get fired. I'm so sorry that its happened to you, but if you can impart some wisdom on folks here I'm sure it would be immensely helpful to us all.

Good Luck!

What? Almost every associate at a biglaw firm gets fired, its just a matter of when. Sometimes you are puhed out as a 3rd or 4th year, but if you manage to hang on, you’re certainly gone by year 6 or 7. The firms that retain associates after they’ve been passed up for partner (year 7-8)—which is nearly everyone in litigation—are few and far between.

OP’s circumstances are the norm

[nealric]

Can you explain a little about why or how you were fired? That's fascinating and terrifying to me-- I've always heard it was very difficult but not at all impossible to get fired. I'm so sorry that its happened to you, but if you can impart some wisdom on folks here I'm sure it would be immensely helpful to us all.

Good Luck!

What? Almost every associate at a biglaw firm gets fired, its just a matter of when. Sometimes you are puhed out as a 3rd or 4th year, but if you manage to hang on, you’re certainly gone by year 6 or 7. The firms that retain associates after they’ve been passed up for partner (year 7-8)—which is nearly everyone in litigation—are few and far between.

OP’s circumstances are the norm

I don't think this is true at all. The vast majority of former biglaw folks I know left biglaw on their own accord. Biglaw is enough of a grind that most people burn out before they are forced out.

[Npret]

As an aside, why are mods allowing anon abuse in a thread where OP is asking for job advice after being fired?

[nealric]

As an aside, why are mods allowing anon abuse in a thread where OP is asking for job advice after being fired?

We all have different philosophies on this topic. Personally, I'm most sensitive when someone is using the anon feature to behave badly towards another poster. If it's borderline, I err on the side of allowing anon. I can understand that people are extra sensitive when posting on layoff threads. Also, keep in mind that sometimes a post that appears to be an unrelated anon can be the OP (not necessarily the case in this thread) who has posted something sensitive.

Most of us just mod on a volunteer basis, so we aren't going to exercise perfect and comprehensive oversight.

Npret: Sorry, I goofed when trying to reply to your post- accidentally hit edit instead of reply. I did not intend to delete the rest of your comment!

[nixy]

Something else that's bothering me a bit is running into senior associates/partners who know my situation in the hallway. Though I'm at a giant firm, I do run into them occasionally, and they tend to either awkwardly wave hi, or flat out ignore me as if I'm not there. I don't know how to describe it, but it both hurts and makes me a bit angry. It's not like I ever did anything bad to them, and most people are pushed out eventually. Just because I'm pushed out now doesn't mean I won't be in a position to influence outside counsel hiring one day, so I don't understand why some people are so rude about it. A simple smile would have shown some basic courtesy. This is the mental cost of coming to the office when some people know my situation.

FWIW, I can’t offer any advice specific to getting fired from biglaw, but I had a similar experience when getting fired from a sort of similarly big-deal job (similar culture in a lot of ways), and I know exactly what you mean. One of the most galling things was walking around doing my job for the rest of my time, surrounded by colleagues who knew exactly what had happened and never mentioned it to me ever. Of the partner-type people who I worked with, only one person not involved in actually firing me ever said anything about it to me (though a few people in other areas, who weren’t involved in the decision, were kind about it). Even just a “I’m sorry this is the way things turned out” or “hope you’re doing okay” would have made a huge difference, emotionally (or as you suggest, just treat you normally and not like a pariah). Logically, I get why no one says anything (one it’s awkward, two no one wants to reveal anything that might get them sued), but I think what you’re feeling is totally totally normal. You just have to sit with it and get over it in time (eventually you’ll get out of there).

[Anonymous User]

A recruiter emailed me about boutiques today. Her email said Levine Lee, Morvillo, Howell Shuster, and Kobre Kim are all hiring mid levels. I’m not in litigation, so I wasn’t interested, but I figured I’d pass along.

[Anonymous User]

I am sorry to hear that; I was once in the same position. To be frank, Biglaw layoffs are VERY common, even though they spend unreasonable amount of money to lure the summer associates and to create the illusion that they are financially strong. A lot of times, the decision to lay associates off is not explicitly expressed; the firms will gradually strip you off all your responsibilities and hint to you that you should go, or simply ask you, as a mid-level or senior-level associate, to do tons of doc review or trivial diligence collection work. A lot of big law associates get burned out for doing large amounts of no-value work so that they choose to leave their firms "voluntarily". But really did they resign because they are burnt out? Trust me partners will treat you sweetly and give you the best type of work if they want to see you advanced.

On the other hand, just to offer some suggestions (and some personal observations) to a disheartened attorney, being laid off is not necessarily a bad thing. The anxiety comes more from fear and temporary deprivation of confidence, rather than a lack of lawyer skills, or "capability." Some big law firms are unreasonably aggressive and harsh; even their equity partners get pushed out if they are not making enough profits. When I was undergoing the madness you are currently experiencing, a partner in my group also received his push-out notice. Unsurprising, he was the only person who behaved humanely during that period to me. The others? Exactly like you said: cutting off correspondence; jilting and sneering; pretending not to have seen me in hallways, even when you sincerely asked for help. After all this, it is very hard to forget their names... I would say those emotional neglects were the most disgusting aspect of being laid off particularly when you recall how they received and welcomed you as a junior associate.

But what a bless it is to break from that stupid building! I am sure you cannot wait to leave your current firm. Granted, as many suggested, you could have done better at your current job; but I will advise you not to focus anymore on the past; a lot of times, being pushed out doesn't mean you were not capable; it rather means a lack of work at the firm, or most simply, you have pissed off an important partner. Some law firms have used nasty techniques when they are to fire an associate (or even a partner), and I believe you may well have fallen victim to those tactics. I would say you do not need to be too worried now; worst case scenario, that you fail to find a job within three months, so what? Travel for a six-month period and come back to the job market, perhaps you can land at a better place.

A previous friend who was also laid off from my firm currently works in a great litigation boutique; he took a six-month period off enjoying life before he re-entered the job market. Another secured an in-house job at Goldman Sachs... just think about the grudge between him and his previous law firm when it comes to GS work.

Best of luck!

[Anonymous User]

I am sorry to hear that; I was once in the same position. To be frank, Biglaw layoffs are VERY common, even though they spend unreasonable amount of money to lure the summer associates and to create the illusion that they are financially strong. A lot of times, the decision to lay associates off is not explicitly expressed; the firms will gradually strip you off all your responsibilities and hint to you that you should go, or simply ask you, as a mid-level or senior-level associate, to do tons of doc review or trivial diligence collection work. A lot of big law associates get burned out for doing large amounts of no-value work so that they choose to leave their firms "voluntarily". But really did they resign because they are burnt out? Trust me partners will treat you sweetly and give you the best type of work if they want to see you advanced.

On the other hand, just to offer some suggestions (and some personal observations) to a disheartened attorney, being laid off is not necessarily a bad thing. The anxiety comes more from fear and temporary deprivation of confidence, rather than a lack of lawyer skills, or "capability." Some big law firms are unreasonably aggressive and harsh; even their equity partners get pushed out if they are not making enough profits. When I was undergoing the madness you are currently experiencing, a partner in my group also received his push-out notice. Unsurprising, he was the only person who behaved humanely during that period to me. The others? Exactly like you said: cutting off correspondence; jilting and sneering; pretending not to have seen me in hallways, even when you sincerely asked for help. After all this, it is very hard to forget their names... I would say those emotional neglects were the most disgusting aspect of being laid off particularly when you recall how they received and welcomed you as a junior associate.

But what a bless it is to break from that stupid building! I am sure you cannot wait to leave your current firm. Granted, as many suggested, you could have done better at your current job; but I will advise you not to focus anymore on the past; a lot of times, being pushed out doesn't mean you were not capable; it rather means a lack of work at the firm, or most simply, you have pissed off an important partner. Some law firms have used nasty techniques when they are to fire an associate (or even a partner), and I believe you may well have fallen victim to those tactics. I would say you do not need to be too worried now; worst case scenario, that you fail to find a job within three months, so what? Travel for a six-month period and come back to the job market, perhaps you can land at a better place.

A previous friend who was also laid off from my firm currently works in a great litigation boutique; he took a six-month period off enjoying life before he re-entered the job market. Another secured an in-house job at Goldman Sachs... just think about the grudge between him and his previous law firm when it comes to GS work.

Best of luck!

This may seem counter-intuitive, but if anything, it makes sense to be extra nice to people you know who are leaving soon even if they are fired because they are more likely to go in-house or to other firms, which are more likely to generate referrals and business in the long-term. The short-sighted response of being extra mean or ignoring the person seems to come from a tribal instinct that is not the most rational.

[unlicensedpotato]

I am sorry to hear that; I was once in the same position. To be frank, Biglaw layoffs are VERY common, even though they spend unreasonable amount of money to lure the summer associates and to create the illusion that they are financially strong. A lot of times, the decision to lay associates off is not explicitly expressed; the firms will gradually strip you off all your responsibilities and hint to you that you should go, or simply ask you, as a mid-level or senior-level associate, to do tons of doc review or trivial diligence collection work. A lot of big law associates get burned out for doing large amounts of no-value work so that they choose to leave their firms "voluntarily". But really did they resign because they are burnt out? Trust me partners will treat you sweetly and give you the best type of work if they want to see you advanced.

On the other hand, just to offer some suggestions (and some personal observations) to a disheartened attorney, being laid off is not necessarily a bad thing. The anxiety comes more from fear and temporary deprivation of confidence, rather than a lack of lawyer skills, or "capability." Some big law firms are unreasonably aggressive and harsh; even their equity partners get pushed out if they are not making enough profits. When I was undergoing the madness you are currently experiencing, a partner in my group also received his push-out notice. Unsurprising, he was the only person who behaved humanely during that period to me. The others? Exactly like you said: cutting off correspondence; jilting and sneering; pretending not to have seen me in hallways, even when you sincerely asked for help. After all this, it is very hard to forget their names... I would say those emotional neglects were the most disgusting aspect of being laid off particularly when you recall how they received and welcomed you as a junior associate.

But what a bless it is to break from that stupid building! I am sure you cannot wait to leave your current firm. Granted, as many suggested, you could have done better at your current job; but I will advise you not to focus anymore on the past; a lot of times, being pushed out doesn't mean you were not capable; it rather means a lack of work at the firm, or most simply, you have pissed off an important partner. Some law firms have used nasty techniques when they are to fire an associate (or even a partner), and I believe you may well have fallen victim to those tactics. I would say you do not need to be too worried now; worst case scenario, that you fail to find a job within three months, so what? Travel for a six-month period and come back to the job market, perhaps you can land at a better place.

A previous friend who was also laid off from my firm currently works in a great litigation boutique; he took a six-month period off enjoying life before he re-entered the job market. Another secured an in-house job at Goldman Sachs... just think about the grudge between him and his previous law firm when it comes to GS work.

Best of luck!

Not criticizing this post in any way (I think it seems really helpful and to have a good perspective) but wanted to point out how significant I think the bolded is. A lot of law students had never been through like a sorority/fraternity rush experience or something similar and were really taken for a ride in terms of the summer associate perks and pleasantries. It was very surprising to me.

It's not that the attorneys don't like you or whatever. But their job is to recruit good people and get them to accept offers, just like the greek life rush chairs. They generally hope things go well for you, but they're not your friend. In the law firm context, they're at best your co-worker and more often your boss. Law students should keep that in mind when evaluating different firms. (Again, not saying the OP or this poster were in any way to blame, just wanted to make this point where law students might see it.)

To OP, good luck and seriously try not to worry about it!