Least Selective Firms for OCI Forum

[Anonymous User]

Likely finishing median at T1 major market with solid OCI placement (think Fordham, GW, BU). I know nothing's definite until grades come out but I feel like I should plan to do about the same as last semester.

How do I go about finding which firms are least selective? Given my so-so grades I want to maximize possible interviews, but I don't even know where to begin looking for firms where I have a shot vs. auto-trash. My identity isn't tied to working at Skadden and I feel like my career services office doesn't get that. I had a meeting with an advisor and she basically told me to try to get the highest GPA possible... well obviously.

I want to go for an OCI to pay down debt as fast as possible, get exposure to high profile cases, and access to the options associated with starting in big law. If I find that I enjoy the environment I'm open to staying but again, this isn't my be all end all career goal. Just feel pressured to give it a shot because of law school culture, financial/professional upside, and ~prestige~.

Are there places on vault that give the ranges I'm describing, or is that what the rankings indicate? Spreadsheets on TLS? Having trouble locating resources so that I can strategically begin researching firms that could be a good fit.

[longtimelurker123]

nobody has ever really compiled anything like this. There's a few lists that I've seen on this forum but none are complete.

Best bet is honestly to just go down your OCI list and poke through firm bios and see how you stack up.

[sparkytrainer]

To be truthful, median at any of those schools pretty much forecloses any shot at biglaw unless you have something else going on (like you are an URM or you worked at Goldman for 5 years before law school).

Assuming you stay median, your best bet is to network your face off (I'm talking about setting up coffees, lunches, and whatever else you can. Like 2-3 events per day for a few months). Also apply to every single biglaw job. Don't wait for OCI, because the chances of you getting a gig at OCI is slim to none.

Your career services keeps giving you the advice about grades because without being top 1/3 or top 1/4 at your school, biglaw is just not an option for you with those grades. Especially now given that last year biglaw summer associate positions were down 25% across the board and that trend looks like its continuing! That means less kids at your level of law school getting biglaw summer jobs.

[nealric]

It may vary from school-to-school, but look primarily for non V20 NYC firms with relatively large summer class sizes. Firms with particularly bad reputations as places to work that are not high on the prestige scale (Cadwalader springs to mind) are probably some of the easiest. If you have hometown ties in a smaller market, exploit those to the nth degree- you might try to arrange something before OCI if you are home over the summer.

I'd go back to career services after grades are in to see if they can supply bidding data. Mine provided a whole spreadsheet.

[Anonymous User]

To be truthful, median at any of those schools pretty much forecloses any shot at biglaw unless you have something else going on (like you are an URM or you worked at Goldman for 5 years before law school).

Assuming you stay median, your best bet is to network your face off (I'm talking about setting up coffees, lunches, and whatever else you can. Like 2-3 events per day for a few months). Also apply to every single biglaw job. Don't wait for OCI, because the chances of you getting a gig at OCI is slim to none.

It may vary from school-to-school, but look primarily for non V20 NYC firms with relatively large summer class sizes. Firms with particularly bad reputations as places to work that are not high on the prestige scale (Cadwalader springs to mind) are probably some of the easiest. If you have hometown ties in a smaller market, exploit those to the nth degree- you might try to arrange something before OCI if you are home over the summer.

OP here, thanks for the responses. When's a good time to begin setting these things up, May/June? I have a decent paralegal/internship experience with firms in my market. Also have my 1L summer job at a firm in this city so I'll be around. I always thought that those who'd lock down a 2L SA pre-OCI had top grades.. Do I reach out to connections/cold email alums being transparent that I'm interested in the firm and OCI, or do I frame it as an informational meeting?

[sparkytrainer]

To be truthful, median at any of those schools pretty much forecloses any shot at biglaw unless you have something else going on (like you are an URM or you worked at Goldman for 5 years before law school).

Assuming you stay median, your best bet is to network your face off (I'm talking about setting up coffees, lunches, and whatever else you can. Like 2-3 events per day for a few months). Also apply to every single biglaw job. Don't wait for OCI, because the chances of you getting a gig at OCI is slim to none.

It may vary from school-to-school, but look primarily for non V20 NYC firms with relatively large summer class sizes. Firms with particularly bad reputations as places to work that are not high on the prestige scale (Cadwalader springs to mind) are probably some of the easiest. If you have hometown ties in a smaller market, exploit those to the nth degree- you might try to arrange something before OCI if you are home over the summer.

OP here, thanks for the responses. When's a good time to begin setting these things up, May/June? I have a decent paralegal/internship experience with firms in my market. Also have my 1L summer job at a firm in this city so I'll be around. I always thought that those who'd lock down a 2L SA pre-OCI had top grades.. Do I reach out to connections/cold email alums being transparent that I'm interested in the firm and OCI, or do I frame it as an informational meeting?

When I did this a few summers ago (with actually pretty decent success rate- had multiple offers pre-oci and not top grades), I emailed people and asked if we could get coffee/lunch or even just chat on the phone about their practice, careers, and their firm. About half the time I was asked for my resume and they pushed it for me, and about half of the time I got free food out of the meeting anyway. I was meeting before work for coffee and lunch most days. I networked with something like 65 different people that way and it directly got me my now biglaw gig.

[Dahl]

There are non V100 firms that pay market rate (to start at least, but you def end up with less down the line). If you’re open geographically the Delaware firms tend to be slightly less picky, or at least they were when I did OCI (8 years ago). Potter Anderson and Richards Layton both seemed like good places to end up.

[Anonymous User]

I was bottom 25% at a T1 and landed biglaw through OCI. I received no interviews from the 500+ massmail apps I sent out.

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

Is any non-T14 is over 50% lottery? How many slots do you even have?

Just bid the large-class NYC firms that aren't full of honors kids. Everyone at least a few schools for several years would have had data on the grades required to get jobs at various firms. As of a few years ago, that list was as follows below. Can't imagine these firms hire in a radically different way now, but if someone has info to the contrary, let me know.

-Cadwalader
-Cahill
-Clifford Chance
-Fried Frank
-Jones Day
-Milbank
-Paul Hastings
-Proskauer
-Ropes
-Schulte
-Shearman
-Sidley
-Willkie

If there was space left, Arnold & Porter, Kirkland, Skadden and Weil were worth a shot as well.

[Anonymous User]

I was bottom 25% at a T1 and landed biglaw through OCI. I received no interviews from the 500+ massmail apps I sent out.

Curious to hear more about this. I'm currently median at NU and my career service office told me to not mass-mail firms coming to OCI because I could get dinged for weak paper credentials (I am a strong interviewer).

[Anonymous User]

I was bottom 25% at a T1 and landed biglaw through OCI. I received no interviews from the 500+ massmail apps I sent out.

Curious to hear more about this. I'm currently median at NU and my career service office told me to not mass-mail firms coming to OCI because I could get dinged for weak paper credentials (I am a strong interviewer).

The quoted anon. TLS wisdom seems to be that massmailing gives you a better chance of landing biglaw than OCI, but that is not necessarily true. OCI gets you in front of someone, face to face, with the opportunity to show them you are someone they would enjoy working with. Numbers matter, but being a strong interviewer can make a huge difference during OCI, especially since many (perhaps most) students are not strong interviewers.

I can't speak to whether massmailing would foreclose opportunities at OCI, but I can tell you that a lack of success massmailing does not necessarily mean you will not succeed during OCI. From my experience and the experience of others in my class, massmailing is valuable only to students with great numbers and poor interviewing skills (i.e., they "strike out"). For students with not great numbers and strong interviewing skills, getting in front of someone during OCI is invaluable (i.e., you could hit a "home run" on the first and only pitch).

[BasilHallward]

I was bottom 25% at a T1 and landed biglaw through OCI. I received no interviews from the 500+ massmail apps I sent out.

Curious to hear more about this. I'm currently median at NU and my career service office told me to not mass-mail firms coming to OCI because I could get dinged for weak paper credentials (I am a strong interviewer).

The quoted anon. TLS wisdom seems to be that massmailing gives you a better chance of landing biglaw than OCI, but that is not necessarily true. OCI gets you in front of someone, face to face, with the opportunity to show them you are someone they would enjoy working with. Numbers matter, but being a strong interviewer can make a huge difference during OCI, especially since many (perhaps most) students are not strong interviewers.

I can't speak to whether massmailing would foreclose opportunities at OCI, but I can tell you that a lack of success massmailing does not necessarily mean you will not succeed during OCI. From my experience and the experience of others in my class, massmailing is valuable only to students with great numbers and poor interviewing skills (i.e., they "strike out"). For students with not great numbers and strong interviewing skills, getting in front of someone during OCI is invaluable (i.e., you could hit a "home run" on the first and only pitch).

Agree with the bolded. You would be shocked at the interviewing skills of some 1Ls who were lucky/worked really hard to get a 4.00+ GPA. Then, a median-pawned student comes in a just crushes it. Happens all the time. You just need to crush it with a firm that is any flexible with grades.

[Anonymous User]

Is any non-T14 is over 50% lottery? How many slots do you even have?

Just bid the large-class NYC firms that aren't full of honors kids. Everyone at least a few schools for several years would have had data on the grades required to get jobs at various firms. As of a few years ago, that list was as follows below. Can't imagine these firms hire in a radically different way now, but if someone has info to the contrary, let me know.

-Cadwalader
-Cahill
-Clifford Chance
-Fried Frank
-Jones Day
-Milbank
-Paul Hastings
-Proskauer
-Ropes
-Schulte
-Shearman
-Sidley
-Willkie

If there was space left, Arnold & Porter, Kirkland, Skadden and Weil were worth a shot as well.

This is a sensible list. My understanding though is that Ropes and Sidley are pretty selective and Proskauer and Milbank have gotten more selective in recent years too. The rest looks good to me.

Also, I'd look at places that are lower on the Vault rankings but still have decent sized summer classes (use NALP for that). Vault also has a "most selective" list, I wouldn't waste high bids on virtually any of those.

Also, if by googling firms you see that an AmLaw 100 or 200 firm pays slightly under market (didn't make the full Cravath jump or is doing something strange with bonuses), that will make them less desired by top of the class people but might give you a better shot.

[Anonymous User]

Is any non-T14 is over 50% lottery? How many slots do you even have?

Just bid the large-class NYC firms that aren't full of honors kids. Everyone at least a few schools for several years would have had data on the grades required to get jobs at various firms. As of a few years ago, that list was as follows below. Can't imagine these firms hire in a radically different way now, but if someone has info to the contrary, let me know.

-Cadwalader
-Cahill
-Clifford Chance
-Fried Frank
-Jones Day
-Milbank
-Paul Hastings
-Proskauer
-Ropes
-Schulte
-Shearman
-Sidley
-Willkie

If there was space left, Arnold & Porter, Kirkland, Skadden and Weil were worth a shot as well.

This is a sensible list. My understanding though is that Ropes and Sidley are pretty selective and Proskauer and Milbank have gotten more selective in recent years too. The rest looks good to me.

Also, I'd look at places that are lower on the Vault rankings but still have decent sized summer classes (use NALP for that). Vault also has a "most selective" list, I wouldn't waste high bids on virtually any of those.

Also, if by googling firms you see that an AmLaw 100 or 200 firm pays slightly under market (didn't make the full Cravath jump or is doing something strange with bonuses), that will make them less desired by top of the class people but might give you a better shot.

NY offices of Ropes and Sidley are not selective. All fair bets.

[Anonymous User]

I was bottom 25% at a T1 and landed biglaw through OCI. I received no interviews from the 500+ massmail apps I sent out.

Curious to hear more about this. I'm currently median at NU and my career service office told me to not mass-mail firms coming to OCI because I could get dinged for weak paper credentials (I am a strong interviewer).

I was median at NU. I worked really hard to reach out to to people in my target market. If you are proactive and show genuine interest in the area and firm, I think you'll get some callbacks pre-OCI.

[totesTheGoat]

Agree with the bolded. You would be shocked at the interviewing skills of some 1Ls who were lucky/worked really hard to get a 4.00+ GPA. Then, a median-pawned student comes in a just crushes it. Happens all the time. You just need to crush it with a firm that is any flexible with grades.

Yep. The best interview we had at OCI last year was a girl whose resume didn't have a GPA on it (which is an immediate red flag, by the way). We had her marked for a callback until we had a chance to look at her transcript (GPA was bottom quarter and well below our threshold). Even then, we talked about making an exception for her because of the stellar interview.

In contrast, the worst interview we had was from a girl with a top 5% GPA and all of the extracurricular opportunities that come with such grades. She didn't make the first cut. It was obvious from talking with her that she had never been in the real world for more than 5 minutes, and that she had no clue why she was at law school beyond impressing her lawyer parents. Some students come in and demand respect with the way they carry themselves and the way they interact with the interviewers. It's a peer-to-peer situation. In this interview, it felt like I was talking to a high school kid interviewing for the cashier position at the local grocery store. You could watch her fishing for approval from us.

[Anonymous User]

Agree with the bolded. You would be shocked at the interviewing skills of some 1Ls who were lucky/worked really hard to get a 4.00+ GPA. Then, a median-pawned student comes in a just crushes it. Happens all the time. You just need to crush it with a firm that is any flexible with grades.

Yep. The best interview we had at OCI last year was a girl whose resume didn't have a GPA on it (which is an immediate red flag, by the way). We had her marked for a callback until we had a chance to look at her transcript (GPA was bottom quarter and well below our threshold). Even then, we talked about making an exception for her because of the stellar interview.

In contrast, the worst interview we had was from a girl with a top 5% GPA and all of the extracurricular opportunities that come with such grades. She didn't make the first cut. It was obvious from talking with her that she had never been in the real world for more than 5 minutes, and that she had no clue why she was at law school beyond impressing her lawyer parents. Some students come in and demand respect with the way they carry themselves and the way they interact with the interviewers. It's a peer-to-peer situation. In this interview, it felt like I was talking to a high school kid interviewing for the cashier position at the local grocery store. You could watch her fishing for approval from us.

Depends on the school, but I found GPAs on resumes to be odd unless it was noting some special honor or award.

[totesTheGoat]

Depends on the school, but I found GPAs on resumes to be odd unless it was noting some special honor or award.

Yeah, depends on the school. I guess I'll amend to say that if you have no indication of where you sit in relation to your peers on your resume, that sends up a red flag.

[Wild Card]

Is any non-T14 is over 50% lottery? How many slots do you even have?

Just bid the large-class NYC firms that aren't full of honors kids. Everyone at least a few schools for several years would have had data on the grades required to get jobs at various firms. As of a few years ago, that list was as follows below. Can't imagine these firms hire in a radically different way now, but if someone has info to the contrary, let me know.

-Cadwalader
-Cahill
-Clifford Chance
-Fried Frank
-Jones Day
-Milbank
-Paul Hastings
-Proskauer
-Ropes
-Schulte
-Shearman
-Sidley
-Willkie

If there was space left, Arnold & Porter, Kirkland, Skadden and Weil were worth a shot as well.

This is a sensible list. My understanding though is that Ropes and Sidley are pretty selective and Proskauer and Milbank have gotten more selective in recent years too. The rest looks good to me.

Also, I'd look at places that are lower on the Vault rankings but still have decent sized summer classes (use NALP for that). Vault also has a "most selective" list, I wouldn't waste high bids on virtually any of those.

Also, if by googling firms you see that an AmLaw 100 or 200 firm pays slightly under market (didn't make the full Cravath jump or is doing something strange with bonuses), that will make them less desired by top of the class people but might give you a better shot.

NY offices of Ropes and Sidley are not selective. All fair bets.

Ropes NY and Sidley NY are quite selective. At NYU, they're willing to dip down to top 60% (3.22), but they manage to snag top 40% to top 33% types (3.44-3.50)--the sort of people that would have ended up at "better" firms, in better times.

Looking at my list of firms that hire a good number of NYU students, I'd say:

Baker & McKenzie
Cadwalader
Cahill
Curtis, Mallet-Prevost
Dechert
Fried Frank
Greenberg Traurig
Hughes Hubbard
Jones Day
Schulte
Shearman
Willkie Farr
Stroock

[Anonymous User]

My position was somewhat different from yours (T6 but <25% GPA) but my experience was that the large class size firms were actually much less likely to give me a shot than smaller class lower ranked firm. Ended up getting a few offers V50-V100 and several other callbacks in the same range. Mostly bid in that range to be fair, but I interviewed at some V25-V50 with large classes and they were all pretty much autoding. Don't even waste your time with V25, being frank you have no chance.