Tier 1 JD w/ Tax LLM who got BigLaw [AMA] Forum

[Dogenfife]

I am a graduating Tax LLM and landed big law. I graduated from a bottom tier 1 JD, worked for 2 years at big4, and landed BigLaw from the Tax LLM. Happy to answer any questions

[gaddockteeg]

In your opinion, what was the biggest contributing factor to you getting big law?

[Anonymous User]

Market paying biglaw? NY biglaw?

[Anonymous User]

Do most people who get biglaw have work experience? Your situation seems unique because you already worked at a big 4 for two years.

Are those two years credited?

Also, you graduated from a lower t1. Were you median?

[Dogenfife]

In your opinion, what was the biggest contributing factor to you getting big law?

I’d say the biggest factor is your tax LLM & your Jd grades/prestige and your understanding of tax. Since people talk in code, it is really easy to determine how much you know about tax after even a short conversation.

[gaddockteeg]

In your opinion, what was the biggest contributing factor to you getting big law?

I’d say the biggest factor is your tax LLM & your Jd grades/prestige and your understanding of tax. Since people talk in code, it is really easy to determine how much you know about tax after even a short conversation.

I'm already in big law from my JD, I'm just curious why you got biglaw and so many of your classmates probably didnt.

[Anonymous User]

What group were you in in the Big4? Do you think it contributed to your ability to get biglaw?

[Dogenfife]

Market paying biglaw? NY biglaw?

Pay is NYC market (180k), but my job is in CA. I also got relocation paid for and all bar fees covered. Bonus is cravath scale (I believe)

[Dogenfife]

In your opinion, what was the biggest contributing factor to you getting big law?

I’d say the biggest factor is your tax LLM & your Jd grades/prestige and your understanding of tax. Since people talk in code, it is really easy to determine how much you know about tax after even a short conversation.

I'm already in big law from my JD, I'm just curious why you got biglaw and so many of your classmates probably didnt.

Yeah I agree that most LLMs go to Big4. I would say most of my friends who got big law from the Tax LLM had top 14 JDs. I was the only one I know about that got a non-executive compensation big law position that was bottom tier 1 JD, let alone a law school with the name "state" in it.

Not really sure why I was picked and others werent. I think some of the factors were: I was open to moving, I wasnt NYC or bust, I got an A- gpa, got As in Corporate tax classes, and had some tax experience. Beyond that, not really sure

[Dogenfife]

What group were you in in the Big4? Do you think it contributed to your ability to get biglaw?

I was in the M&A group at big4. I think it helped because it showed I liked tax, but more than anything else, it really helped me get comfortable in tax. I was able to talk in code by the time I got to the LLM, so it helped me understand how tax works in practice. But generally just having big4 experience will not do much on its own. You need good grades in combination with it. BigLaw does not see big4 as on par.

[Dogenfife]

Do most people who get biglaw have work experience? Your situation seems unique because you already worked at a big 4 for two years.

Are those two years credited?

Also, you graduated from a lower t1. Were you median?

I would not say work experience is what qualifies people for biglaw. The most important part (and people hate to hear this), is your JD prestige and grades, second is your LLM grades, third is work experience. With that said, if you really crush a top tax llm program, you can kind of overcome the prestige ding. I havent heard any T3/T4 students getting big law offers though.

However, on a side note, we had one guy with a top25 JD, who was a writer for ESPN and such, and Biglaw ate that up.


Edit: BigLaw doesn’t give you credit for big4 work. My rank at Jd was top 1/3rd

[FredP2017]

Congrats!!

I am recently thinking if I should invest 10 months and around 100K in NYU tax LLM. My end goal is Biglaw and I know there might a way from big 4 corporate MA taxation or international tax to biglaw. I am not concerned about location either. CA, NY, TX all work for me. Do you think it is worth a try?

Thanks!


My background:
1. JD: school ranked 30-40 out of 200.
2. GPA: 3.65, top 20%, graduate with honors.
3. OCI: don't even mention it. I did not even get a chance to participate in the OCI for some reason.
4. no job lineup, currently doing low-paid attorney job in the corporate practice.
5. no debt of any sort.

[Anonymous User]

Market paying biglaw? NY biglaw?

Pay is NYC market (180k), but my job is in CA. I also got relocation paid for and all bar fees covered. Bonus is cravath scale (I believe)

Have fun with that state income tax! Lol.

Congrats, though!

[Dogenfife]

Market paying biglaw? NY biglaw?

Pay is NYC market (180k), but my job is in CA. I also got relocation paid for and all bar fees covered. Bonus is cravath scale (I believe)

Have fun with that state income tax! Lol.

Congrats, though!

Thanks! And yeah, those state taxes are no joke. They are working on loopholes around the SALT deduction though through a charitable contribution to the state for anyone paying over 10k in state taxes. I guess thats how they will increase one's itemized deduction even though there is a SALT cap.

[Dogenfife]

Congrats!!

I am recently thinking if I should invest 10 months and around 100K in NYU tax LLM. My end goal is Biglaw and I know there might a way from big 4 corporate MA taxation or international tax to biglaw. I am not concerned about location either. CA, NY, TX all work for me. Do you think it is worth a try?

Thanks!


My background:
1. JD: school ranked 30-40 out of 200.
2. GPA: 3.65, top 20%, graduate with honors.
3. OCI: don't even mention it. I did not even get a chance to participate in the OCI for some reason.
4. no job lineup, currently doing low-paid attorney job in the corporate practice.
5. no debt of any sort.

From my experience at big4, lateraling from big4 to biglaw is pretty much impossible. They just do not see the experience as equal. You seem to be in a similar situation to me, granted slightly better grades. Personally, I would recommend working in big4 for 2 years and then doing the LLM. You will get much more out of it and be a much more well rounded tax professional and more attractive to biglaw. With that said, that is the risk averse strategy I used, but in generally it will cost more money in terms of opportunity cost if you could have got big law two years earlier.

If i were you, I would apply to all my jobs and see what I can do without sinking 100k. If thats not feasible, Id work at big4 in M&A or International, learn a ton about tax while you get paid, and go to the llm at 2 years and really sink into tax. Having a solid understanding of tax with great grades will go very far in terms of increasing your odds at biglaw. With all of that said, if you are only going to the LLM to get biglaw, your chances of disappointment are solid. Go to the Tax LLM because you like tax and want a career in it. Trust me, the first semester of the tax LLM at NYU is like 1L on steroids (since only first semester grades matter), so if you do not love tax, youll burn out.

With all of the above said, you have no debt. What ever you do is bbq chicken. Most people are already heavily burden by debt so there is a huge value decision. With you, theres really no pressure of financial disaster, so the decision is more one of passion (granted wasting 100k and a year of your life sucks regardless of your financial position).

[Anonymous User]

Congrats!!

I am recently thinking if I should invest 10 months and around 100K in NYU tax LLM. My end goal is Biglaw and I know there might a way from big 4 corporate MA taxation or international tax to biglaw. I am not concerned about location either. CA, NY, TX all work for me. Do you think it is worth a try?

Thanks!


My background:
1. JD: school ranked 30-40 out of 200.
2. GPA: 3.65, top 20%, graduate with honors.
3. OCI: don't even mention it. I did not even get a chance to participate in the OCI for some reason.
4. no job lineup, currently doing low-paid attorney job in the corporate practice.
5. no debt of any sort.

From my experience at big4, lateraling from big4 to biglaw is pretty much impossible. They just do not see the experience as equal. You seem to be in a similar situation to me, granted slightly better grades. Personally, I would recommend working in big4 for 2 years and then doing the LLM. You will get much more out of it and be a much more well rounded tax professional and more attractive to biglaw. With that said, that is the risk averse strategy I used, but in generally it will cost more money in terms of opportunity cost if you could have got big law two years earlier.

If i were you, I would apply to all my jobs and see what I can do without sinking 100k. If thats not feasible, Id work at big4 in M&A or International, learn a ton about tax while you get paid, and go to the llm at 2 years and really sink into tax. Having a solid understanding of tax with great grades will go very far in terms of increasing your odds at biglaw. With all of that said, if you are only going to the LLM to get biglaw, your chances of disappointment are solid. Go to the Tax LLM because you like tax and want a career in it. Trust me, the first semester of the tax LLM at NYU is like 1L on steroids (since only first semester grades matter), so if you do not love tax, youll burn out.

With all of the above said, you have no debt. What ever you do is bbq chicken. Most people are already heavily burden by debt so there is a huge value decision. With you, theres really no pressure of financial disaster, so the decision is more one of passion (granted wasting 100k and a year of your life sucks regardless of your financial position).

It depends on the big4, the practice group within the big4, and the city you are in. I have seen a few laterals to biglaw from my big4 in the past 1.5 years. While that is not plenty, labeling it "pretty much impossible" is taking it a bit too far. Generally speaking, you would not have as much drafting experience as would be required for biglaw and may have to cut a year or two of your experience upon lateraling, but that's not the end of the world.

[FredP2017]

Congrats!!

I am recently thinking if I should invest 10 months and around 100K in NYU tax LLM. My end goal is Biglaw and I know there might a way from big 4 corporate MA taxation or international tax to biglaw. I am not concerned about location either. CA, NY, TX all work for me. Do you think it is worth a try?

Thanks!


My background:
1. JD: school ranked 30-40 out of 200.
2. GPA: 3.65, top 20%, graduate with honors.
3. OCI: don't even mention it. I did not even get a chance to participate in the OCI for some reason.
4. no job lineup, currently doing low-paid attorney job in the corporate practice.
5. no debt of any sort.

From my experience at big4, lateraling from big4 to biglaw is pretty much impossible. They just do not see the experience as equal. You seem to be in a similar situation to me, granted slightly better grades. Personally, I would recommend working in big4 for 2 years and then doing the LLM. You will get much more out of it and be a much more well rounded tax professional and more attractive to biglaw. With that said, that is the risk averse strategy I used, but in generally it will cost more money in terms of opportunity cost if you could have got big law two years earlier.

If i were you, I would apply to all my jobs and see what I can do without sinking 100k. If thats not feasible, Id work at big4 in M&A or International, learn a ton about tax while you get paid, and go to the llm at 2 years and really sink into tax. Having a solid understanding of tax with great grades will go very far in terms of increasing your odds at biglaw. With all of that said, if you are only going to the LLM to get biglaw, your chances of disappointment are solid. Go to the Tax LLM because you like tax and want a career in it. Trust me, the first semester of the tax LLM at NYU is like 1L on steroids (since only first semester grades matter), so if you do not love tax, youll burn out.

With all of the above said, you have no debt. What ever you do is bbq chicken. Most people are already heavily burden by debt so there is a huge value decision. With you, theres really no pressure of financial disaster, so the decision is more one of passion (granted wasting 100k and a year of your life sucks regardless of your financial position).

Thank you very much! I really appreciate your detailed explanation. It is very helpful! Well, I've always value experience more than a degree or a program. I have been applying for jobs (a decent career path, a fat paycheck is not that of a priority to me right now, as long as I can learn fast), however, no avail. That's why I put the option of tax LLM back on the table and hopefully, it will give me a second shot through its career fair. Yeah, if I can find a way to work at big4 in M&A or international first, I would definitely do that first. It is just I cannot find my way right now.

Yeah, tax study can be brutal. I took a few tax courses in law school and did well, but by no means do I think I will do well in tax llm without shedding a significant amount of hair...

[Dogenfife]

Congrats!!

I am recently thinking if I should invest 10 months and around 100K in NYU tax LLM. My end goal is Biglaw and I know there might a way from big 4 corporate MA taxation or international tax to biglaw. I am not concerned about location either. CA, NY, TX all work for me. Do you think it is worth a try?

Thanks!


My background:
1. JD: school ranked 30-40 out of 200.
2. GPA: 3.65, top 20%, graduate with honors.
3. OCI: don't even mention it. I did not even get a chance to participate in the OCI for some reason.
4. no job lineup, currently doing low-paid attorney job in the corporate practice.
5. no debt of any sort.

From my experience at big4, lateraling from big4 to biglaw is pretty much impossible. They just do not see the experience as equal. You seem to be in a similar situation to me, granted slightly better grades. Personally, I would recommend working in big4 for 2 years and then doing the LLM. You will get much more out of it and be a much more well rounded tax professional and more attractive to biglaw. With that said, that is the risk averse strategy I used, but in generally it will cost more money in terms of opportunity cost if you could have got big law two years earlier.

If i were you, I would apply to all my jobs and see what I can do without sinking 100k. If thats not feasible, Id work at big4 in M&A or International, learn a ton about tax while you get paid, and go to the llm at 2 years and really sink into tax. Having a solid understanding of tax with great grades will go very far in terms of increasing your odds at biglaw. With all of that said, if you are only going to the LLM to get biglaw, your chances of disappointment are solid. Go to the Tax LLM because you like tax and want a career in it. Trust me, the first semester of the tax LLM at NYU is like 1L on steroids (since only first semester grades matter), so if you do not love tax, youll burn out.

With all of the above said, you have no debt. What ever you do is bbq chicken. Most people are already heavily burden by debt so there is a huge value decision. With you, theres really no pressure of financial disaster, so the decision is more one of passion (granted wasting 100k and a year of your life sucks regardless of your financial position).

It depends on the big4, the practice group within the big4, and the city you are in. I have seen a few laterals to biglaw from my big4 in the past 1.5 years. While that is not plenty, labeling it "pretty much impossible" is taking it a bit too far. Generally speaking, you would not have as much drafting experience as would be required for biglaw and may have to cut a year or two of your experience upon lateraling, but that's not the end of the world.

I agree, it happens occasionally. You will hear anecdotal evidence here and there. I knew someone in SALT who transitioned to Sutherland SALT group. However, statistically, I would probably say its uncommon. So it is possible, but if you are banking on it, you may be setting your self up for disappointment.

[Anonymous User]

A lot of this has to do with big 4 tax groups taking away business from big law and then also paying a high (but lower) starting salary to tax llm graduates. EY was paying $150k total comp recently to NYU Tax LLM students which is probably one of the reasons why fewer 2017 graduates went big law as compared to the class of 2016.

Being in M&A or ITS at big 4 can also lead to selective in house positions. Nothing wrong with working as tax counsel at a tech company, bank, PE/VC, or Exxon.

[Anonymous User]

^ to the above, I was at NYU during the EY to 150. They offered it to maybe one or two people then retracted and paid everyone else 115 with a 5 bonus.

The lucky few that got first semester offers got to keep their 140 + 10 bonus, but it was with the understanding that they wouldn’t get a raise for a few years.

[Dogenfife]

^ to the above, I was at NYU during the EY to 150. They offered it to maybe one or two people then retracted and paid everyone else 115 with a 5 bonus.

The lucky few that got first semester offers got to keep their 140 + 10 bonus, but it was with the understanding that they wouldn’t get a raise for a few years.

I can confirm this year that EY paid 105-125k (depending on city and position in class) this year. No mention of 150k or matching biglaw from EY

[Dogenfife]

A lot of this has to do with big 4 tax groups taking away business from big law and then also paying a high (but lower) starting salary to tax llm graduates. EY was paying $150k total comp recently to NYU Tax LLM students which is probably one of the reasons why fewer 2017 graduates went big law as compared to the class of 2016.

Being in M&A or ITS at big 4 can also lead to selective in house positions. Nothing wrong with working as tax counsel at a tech company, bank, PE/VC, or Exxon.

Agreed! I said big4 to biglaw was tough, but big4 to in house, cfo, tax counsel, PE, etc works better. I had one friend go into venture banking, one friend went inhouse at uni lever, a family friend became VP of tax for a household name MNE, and had another friend go to a PE shop. Without going into everyones story, I think you bring up a great point of other options outside of just biglaw. However, I do notice most people who go to big4 either move between big4s (or other large accounting firms), open their own shop (think M&A due diligence shops), or go to clients. Thats just what ive seen with my own experience for a large share of big4 tax employees.

[Dogenfife]

[quote="Dogenfife"][quote="Anonymous User"]A lot of this has to do with big 4 tax groups taking away business from big law and then also paying a high (but lower) starting salary to tax llm graduates. EY was paying $150k total comp recently to NYU Tax LLM students which is probably one of the reasons why fewer 2017 graduates went big law as compared to the class of 2016.

Being in M&A or ITS at big 4 can also lead to selective in house positions. Nothing wrong with working as tax counsel at a tech company, bank, PE/VC, or Exxon.[/quote]

No longer answering posts on this site. They will not let you edit posts or take them down. See reddit for my ama with reddit. TLS is changing my posts


Agreed! I said big4 to biglaw was tough, but big4 to in house, cfo, tax counsel, PE, etc works better. I had one friend go into venture banking, one friend went inhouse at uni lever, a family friend became VP of tax for a household name MNE, and had another friend go to a PE shop. Without going into everyones story, I think you bring up a great point of other options outside of just biglaw. However, I do notice most people who go to big4 either move between big4s (or other large accounting firms), open their own shop (think M&A due diligence shops), or go to clients. Thats just what ive seen with my own experience for a large share of big4 tax employees.[/quote]

[Anonymous User]

Congrats!!

I am recently thinking if I should invest 10 months and around 100K in NYU tax LLM. My end goal is Biglaw and I know there might a way from big 4 corporate MA taxation or international tax to biglaw. I am not concerned about location either. CA, NY, TX all work for me. Do you think it is worth a try?

Thanks!


My background:
1. JD: school ranked 30-40 out of 200.
2. GPA: 3.65, top 20%, graduate with honors.
3. OCI: don't even mention it. I did not even get a chance to participate in the OCI for some reason.
4. no job lineup, currently doing low-paid attorney job in the corporate practice.
5. no debt of any sort.

From my experience at big4, lateraling from big4 to biglaw is pretty much impossible. They just do not see the experience as equal. You seem to be in a similar situation to me, granted slightly better grades. Personally, I would recommend working in big4 for 2 years and then doing the LLM. You will get much more out of it and be a much more well rounded tax professional and more attractive to biglaw. With that said, that is the risk averse strategy I used, but in generally it will cost more money in terms of opportunity cost if you could have got big law two years earlier.

If i were you, I would apply to all my jobs and see what I can do without sinking 100k. If thats not feasible, Id work at big4 in M&A or International, learn a ton about tax while you get paid, and go to the llm at 2 years and really sink into tax. Having a solid understanding of tax with great grades will go very far in terms of increasing your odds at biglaw. With all of that said, if you are only going to the LLM to get biglaw, your chances of disappointment are solid. Go to the Tax LLM because you like tax and want a career in it. Trust me, the first semester of the tax LLM at NYU is like 1L on steroids (since only first semester grades matter), so if you do not love tax, youll burn out.

With all of the above said, you have no debt. What ever you do is bbq chicken. Most people are already heavily burden by debt so there is a huge value decision. With you, theres really no pressure of financial disaster, so the decision is more one of passion (granted wasting 100k and a year of your life sucks regardless of your financial position).

It depends on the big4, the practice group within the big4, and the city you are in. I have seen a few laterals to biglaw from my big4 in the past 1.5 years. While that is not plenty, labeling it "pretty much impossible" is taking it a bit too far. Generally speaking, you would not have as much drafting experience as would be required for biglaw and may have to cut a year or two of your experience upon lateraling, but that's not the end of the world.

I agree. Know someone that was in the tax group at a Big 4. Went to a third tier law school in their night program to get their JD. Got an associate position after at a Vault 100 firm, and is now a Partner there.

But for everyone that replies, "I know someone that did this", you get you get the "oooooooh but that's 'rare' that's very unlikely to happen, that anecdotal." Yeah, typically making a lot of money or most lucrative things in life ends up being "rare." That's not exclusive to the legal industry. But if you were to listen to the average person on law forums, they make it seem like every law partner was an astronaut or has the intellect of Terence Tao.
They're just lucky people that made their firms money.