how to explain leaving prior job Forum

[Anonymous User]

I quit my old fed gov job because it was a shitty unfair working environment - many of my coworkers also left during the time I did. About 20% left. It was bad management, really mean and toxic people, unfair standards, letting people go for bs reasons, chaos, disorganization, it was a mess.

Anyway, I left without having anything else lined up.

Now, in interviews, people are asking me why I left. What is the best way to tackle this question?

[Anonymous User]

I wouldn't go with honesty in this case, as trashing management and general negativity doesn't play well to a prospective employer, no matter how true it might be. Just explain it wasn't a good fit, maybe that you didn't want to get pigeon-hole doing the sort of work the agency does, and have always wanted to try [insert prospective employer's area of law].

Relatedly, can I ask if this agency was BVA? I am a current employee there. I am curious what sort of interviews you have been able to get.

[Anonymous User]

I wouldn't go with honesty in this case, as trashing management and general negativity doesn't play well to a prospective employer, no matter how true it might be. Just explain it wasn't a good fit, maybe that you didn't want to get pigeon-hole doing the sort of work the agency does, and have always wanted to try [insert prospective employer's area of law].

Relatedly, can I ask if this agency was BVA? I am a current employee there. I am curious what sort of interviews you have been able to get.

I think the fact that you knew it was BVA indicates that the issues are not personal trash-talk but objective facts about the agency's situation. It is unfortunate that such objective and widespread issues cannot be disclosed to future employers even though it is highly relevant to an employee's current situation. Abstaining from trash-talk, I can understand. But it should be different for things like this.

I'd ask you to PM me but I don't want to get off anon =x If you do, I'd PM you

[Anonymous User]

While considering whether to take the BVA job, I remember speaking with a partner at a firm who professed a disdain for federal employment, with the boomer-esque reasoning that a young attorney should try making it on their own, not falling into the comfortable, anonymous federal employee lifestyle, etc. etc. Having worked here for a while I sometimes wish I had bought into his perspective at the time. If you are interviewing with these types, then you're right, I think you'd be perfectly fine being honest. You just have to feel it out.

I would be very easily outed so will remain anon too, hah. If you are unable to say what kind of employers you've been able to get interviews with without outing yourself, totally understand, and good luck.

[Anonymous User]

Relatedly, can I ask if this agency was BVA? I am a current employee there. I am curious what sort of interviews you have been able to get.

It's crazy that anonymous people on the internet were able to identify BVA this quickly. But that's its reputation I guess.

FWIW, I'm also a current BVA employee, and I've been interviewing elsewhere for several months. I have to be somewhat vague since I'm still there (although not for long). But since I started applying to jobs, I've been getting a few interviews each month. I've been able to get interviews at two big state agencies (litigation positions for junior attorneys), some public interest/legal assistance type places, a big in-house counsel job at a large private organization, and a few small firms. I've gotten a few offers, which I've turned down due to location and bar admission, as well as a shift in family circumstances that's compelling me to move to a specific metro area.

I should qualify my experience by saying that I'm not barred in a D.C. area jurisdiction, so my job hunt has been fairly limited when it comes to D.C. area employers. I started applying in force to places back in my home jurisdiction only starting in January, which is where I'm going to end up.

Frankly, I think if you read the interviewer well enough, you're probably safe in being honest about your bad experience at the Board. D.C. area employers seem to know BVA's reputation and haven't held it against me for wanting to leave. The place churns through so many lawyers that word travels fast and they're used to hiring people who jump ship from BVA. I usually say something like, "I went in wanting to get experience writing and working for veterans, but it became clear to me fairly quick that the environment at the BVA was not what I imagined it to be, and I don't see it as a place where I can grow as a young attorney." They usually won't ask follow-ups for more specific reasons after that if they're aware of the Board's reputation already. For places that aren't in the D.C. area or aren't otherwise familiar with the BVA, I'll add something about wanting to get back into X area of law and how work at the Board was ultimately not in my professional development interests because X, Y, and Z.

There is a difference between trash-talking a former employer in an interview and describing how it wasn't a good fit for you. If you left without something lined up, you may want to say something about a personal or family situation that compelled you to leave earlier than you had planned, but that you had always intended on leaving because of the bad environment.

I'm still going through this too though, so I'd be curious to see what your experience was. Suffice to say that the place has been the most depressing and hostile workplace I've ever been in.

[Anonymous User]

In fairness I was able to identify BVA quickly because I work there and the term “production requirements” only applies to so many agencies. With that said, glad to hear you have been able to get interviews. I am in my 3rd/4th year so while the job is miserable, pay/benefits are not bad. While I’m coming around to the fact I will leave and have decided to start applying soon, I think I’ll at least try to be pretty picky as to what I do next.

Sorry to derail, OP.

[forthecause]

In fairness I was able to identify BVA quickly because I work there and the term “production requirements” only applies to so many agencies. With that said, glad to hear you have been able to get interviews. I am in my 3rd/4th year so while the job is miserable, pay/benefits are not bad. While I’m coming around to the fact I will leave and have decided to start applying soon, I think I’ll at least try to be pretty picky as to what I do next.

Sorry to derail, OP.

Trying to figure out what people dislike about being at bva. On paper seems perfect: 4 days per week, remote from anywhere, gs11-15. What’s miserable about it?

[Anonymous User]

In fairness I was able to identify BVA quickly because I work there and the term “production requirements” only applies to so many agencies. With that said, glad to hear you have been able to get interviews. I am in my 3rd/4th year so while the job is miserable, pay/benefits are not bad. While I’m coming around to the fact I will leave and have decided to start applying soon, I think I’ll at least try to be pretty picky as to what I do next.

Sorry to derail, OP.

Trying to figure out what people dislike about being at bva. On paper seems perfect: 4 days per week, remote from anywhere, gs11-15. What’s miserable about it?

Did the OP’s description of “bad management, really mean and toxic people, unfair standards, letting people go for bs reasons, chaos, disorganization” not explain sufficiently?

I haven’t worked there, but the OP’s experience is consistent with everything I’ve heard. I’ve also seen people say that the work is extremely repetitive and dull and that you’re judged entirely on numbers of opinions generated, not quality or anything else. Certainly not everyone minds doing rote and mindless work, but doing it under shitty managers would be pretty bad. And I think GS-15 is only for supervisory positions, though I could be wrong about that. (It’s also going to be pretty limited in terms of development as a lawyer, but that may not bother you.)

[forthecause]

In fairness I was able to identify BVA quickly because I work there and the term “production requirements” only applies to so many agencies. With that said, glad to hear you have been able to get interviews. I am in my 3rd/4th year so while the job is miserable, pay/benefits are not bad. While I’m coming around to the fact I will leave and have decided to start applying soon, I think I’ll at least try to be pretty picky as to what I do next.

Sorry to derail, OP.

Trying to figure out what people dislike about being at bva. On paper seems perfect: 4 days per week, remote from anywhere, gs11-15. What’s miserable about it?

Did the OP’s description of “bad management, really mean and toxic people, unfair standards, letting people go for bs reasons, chaos, disorganization” not explain sufficiently?

I haven’t worked there, but the OP’s experience is consistent with everything I’ve heard. I’ve also seen people say that the work is extremely repetitive and dull and that you’re judged entirely on numbers of opinions generated, not quality or anything else. Certainly not everyone minds doing rote and mindless work, but doing it under shitty managers would be pretty bad. And I think GS-15 is only for supervisory positions, though I could be wrong about that. (It’s also going to be pretty limited in terms of development as a lawyer, but that may not bother you.)

Shouldn’t a lot of that stuff be office dependent? Sounds a lot like my army days, where everyone complained of the toxic leaders and unfair standards etc, but was mostly just disgruntled people who were pissed off at either an asshole boss or not being happy with the work they signed up for. Think that’s what’s going on here?

Also, how does my characterization that I’ve heard align with reality? Is it really 4 days per week, under 40 hours, remote from living anywhere in the country?

[Anonymous User]

In fairness I was able to identify BVA quickly because I work there and the term “production requirements” only applies to so many agencies. With that said, glad to hear you have been able to get interviews. I am in my 3rd/4th year so while the job is miserable, pay/benefits are not bad. While I’m coming around to the fact I will leave and have decided to start applying soon, I think I’ll at least try to be pretty picky as to what I do next.

Sorry to derail, OP.

Trying to figure out what people dislike about being at bva. On paper seems perfect: 4 days per week, remote from anywhere, gs11-15. What’s miserable about it?

Did the OP’s description of “bad management, really mean and toxic people, unfair standards, letting people go for bs reasons, chaos, disorganization” not explain sufficiently?

I haven’t worked there, but the OP’s experience is consistent with everything I’ve heard. I’ve also seen people say that the work is extremely repetitive and dull and that you’re judged entirely on numbers of opinions generated, not quality or anything else. Certainly not everyone minds doing rote and mindless work, but doing it under shitty managers would be pretty bad. And I think GS-15 is only for supervisory positions, though I could be wrong about that. (It’s also going to be pretty limited in terms of development as a lawyer, but that may not bother you.)

Shouldn’t a lot of that stuff be office dependent? Sounds a lot like my army days, where everyone complained of the toxic leaders and unfair standards etc, but was mostly just disgruntled people who were pissed off at either an asshole boss or not being happy with the work they signed up for. Think that’s what’s going on here?

Also, how does my characterization that I’ve heard align with reality? Is it really 4 days per week, under 40 hours, remote from living anywhere in the country?

Go search online for reviews of the BVA, there are consistent complaints about poor management. Maybe you’re not someone who’d be bothered by what others were bothered by, but I don’t think you can just dismiss them all as malcontents. They have a consistent history of high turnover, which is a bad sign. Of course maybe they’ve turned it around or it’s an office you’ll jive with, I don’t know.

(As for varying by office - it’s just one office, in DC. One management. Everyone is doing the same thing, responding to veterans’ appeals of their benefits.)

[forthecause]

In fairness I was able to identify BVA quickly because I work there and the term “production requirements” only applies to so many agencies. With that said, glad to hear you have been able to get interviews. I am in my 3rd/4th year so while the job is miserable, pay/benefits are not bad. While I’m coming around to the fact I will leave and have decided to start applying soon, I think I’ll at least try to be pretty picky as to what I do next.

Sorry to derail, OP.

Trying to figure out what people dislike about being at bva. On paper seems perfect: 4 days per week, remote from anywhere, gs11-15. What’s miserable about it?

Did the OP’s description of “bad management, really mean and toxic people, unfair standards, letting people go for bs reasons, chaos, disorganization” not explain sufficiently?

I haven’t worked there, but the OP’s experience is consistent with everything I’ve heard. I’ve also seen people say that the work is extremely repetitive and dull and that you’re judged entirely on numbers of opinions generated, not quality or anything else. Certainly not everyone minds doing rote and mindless work, but doing it under shitty managers would be pretty bad. And I think GS-15 is only for supervisory positions, though I could be wrong about that. (It’s also going to be pretty limited in terms of development as a lawyer, but that may not bother you.)

Shouldn’t a lot of that stuff be office dependent? Sounds a lot like my army days, where everyone complained of the toxic leaders and unfair standards etc, but was mostly just disgruntled people who were pissed off at either an asshole boss or not being happy with the work they signed up for. Think that’s what’s going on here?

Also, how does my characterization that I’ve heard align with reality? Is it really 4 days per week, under 40 hours, remote from living anywhere in the country?

Go search online for reviews of the BVA, there are consistent complaints about poor management. Maybe you’re not someone who’d be bothered by what others were bothered by, but I don’t think you can just dismiss them all as malcontents. They have a consistent history of high turnover, which is a bad sign. Of course maybe they’ve turned it around or it’s an office you’ll jive with, I don’t know.

(As for varying by office - it’s just one office, in DC. One management. Everyone is doing the same thing, responding to veterans’ appeals of their benefits.)

Any suggestions where to find these reviews? Can’t find anything on fed soup or Reddit or even here really. Also, couldn’t high turnover be due to people not wanting to do monotonous work that could stunt their career? What about it being remote? The office is in DC but you can really live anywhere in the country?

[Anonymous User]

In fairness I was able to identify BVA quickly because I work there and the term “production requirements” only applies to so many agencies. With that said, glad to hear you have been able to get interviews. I am in my 3rd/4th year so while the job is miserable, pay/benefits are not bad. While I’m coming around to the fact I will leave and have decided to start applying soon, I think I’ll at least try to be pretty picky as to what I do next.

Sorry to derail, OP.

Trying to figure out what people dislike about being at bva. On paper seems perfect: 4 days per week, remote from anywhere, gs11-15. What’s miserable about it?

Did the OP’s description of “bad management, really mean and toxic people, unfair standards, letting people go for bs reasons, chaos, disorganization” not explain sufficiently?

I haven’t worked there, but the OP’s experience is consistent with everything I’ve heard. I’ve also seen people say that the work is extremely repetitive and dull and that you’re judged entirely on numbers of opinions generated, not quality or anything else. Certainly not everyone minds doing rote and mindless work, but doing it under shitty managers would be pretty bad. And I think GS-15 is only for supervisory positions, though I could be wrong about that. (It’s also going to be pretty limited in terms of development as a lawyer, but that may not bother you.)

Shouldn’t a lot of that stuff be office dependent? Sounds a lot like my army days, where everyone complained of the toxic leaders and unfair standards etc, but was mostly just disgruntled people who were pissed off at either an asshole boss or not being happy with the work they signed up for. Think that’s what’s going on here?

Also, how does my characterization that I’ve heard align with reality? Is it really 4 days per week, under 40 hours, remote from living anywhere in the country?

Go search online for reviews of the BVA, there are consistent complaints about poor management. Maybe you’re not someone who’d be bothered by what others were bothered by, but I don’t think you can just dismiss them all as malcontents. They have a consistent history of high turnover, which is a bad sign. Of course maybe they’ve turned it around or it’s an office you’ll jive with, I don’t know.

(As for varying by office - it’s just one office, in DC. One management. Everyone is doing the same thing, responding to veterans’ appeals of their benefits.)

Any suggestions where to find these reviews? Can’t find anything on fed soup or Reddit or even here really. Also, couldn’t high turnover be due to people not wanting to do monotonous work that could stunt their career? What about it being remote? The office is in DC but you can really live anywhere in the country?

Google “board of veterans appeals attorney jobs” and you’ll get some stuff showing up (Glassdoor is one and then some various forums).

And yes, I’m sure some people probably do leave because they don’t want to do monotonous work that stunts their career, because, well, that’s pretty much inherently a bad job. To be frank, I don’t at all understand why someone would go to law school with the hope of getting monotonous work that stunts their career, nor why your response is “why do people have such a bad attitude about this job that has inherently bad qualities?” Even if management were delightful and organized (which evidence suggests it’s not), not that many people want to spend three years in law school to stagnate doing the same unsophisticated work year after year.

As for it being remote, yes, that usually means living anywhere in the country. Firms sometimes run into issues when employees want to live somewhere that the firm doesn’t have an office (there are tax implications), but that’s not going to be an issue for the feds. I don’t know how it works exactly for the BVA but remote jobs on USAjobs are described as anywhere in the country. I don’t work there so can’t comment on what it’s like in practice, but there are definitely employers who decided after Covid that it was more economical to have employees work from home than to keep paying rent on an office building.

[forthecause]

In fairness I was able to identify BVA quickly because I work there and the term “production requirements” only applies to so many agencies. With that said, glad to hear you have been able to get interviews. I am in my 3rd/4th year so while the job is miserable, pay/benefits are not bad. While I’m coming around to the fact I will leave and have decided to start applying soon, I think I’ll at least try to be pretty picky as to what I do next.

Sorry to derail, OP.

Trying to figure out what people dislike about being at bva. On paper seems perfect: 4 days per week, remote from anywhere, gs11-15. What’s miserable about it?

Did the OP’s description of “bad management, really mean and toxic people, unfair standards, letting people go for bs reasons, chaos, disorganization” not explain sufficiently?

I haven’t worked there, but the OP’s experience is consistent with everything I’ve heard. I’ve also seen people say that the work is extremely repetitive and dull and that you’re judged entirely on numbers of opinions generated, not quality or anything else. Certainly not everyone minds doing rote and mindless work, but doing it under shitty managers would be pretty bad. And I think GS-15 is only for supervisory positions, though I could be wrong about that. (It’s also going to be pretty limited in terms of development as a lawyer, but that may not bother you.)

Shouldn’t a lot of that stuff be office dependent? Sounds a lot like my army days, where everyone complained of the toxic leaders and unfair standards etc, but was mostly just disgruntled people who were pissed off at either an asshole boss or not being happy with the work they signed up for. Think that’s what’s going on here?

Also, how does my characterization that I’ve heard align with reality? Is it really 4 days per week, under 40 hours, remote from living anywhere in the country?

Go search online for reviews of the BVA, there are consistent complaints about poor management. Maybe you’re not someone who’d be bothered by what others were bothered by, but I don’t think you can just dismiss them all as malcontents. They have a consistent history of high turnover, which is a bad sign. Of course maybe they’ve turned it around or it’s an office you’ll jive with, I don’t know.

(As for varying by office - it’s just one office, in DC. One management. Everyone is doing the same thing, responding to veterans’ appeals of their benefits.)

Any suggestions where to find these reviews? Can’t find anything on fed soup or Reddit or even here really. Also, couldn’t high turnover be due to people not wanting to do monotonous work that could stunt their career? What about it being remote? The office is in DC but you can really live anywhere in the country?

Google “board of veterans appeals attorney jobs” and you’ll get some stuff showing up (Glassdoor is one and then some various forums).

And yes, I’m sure some people probably do leave because they don’t want to do monotonous work that stunts their career, because, well, that’s pretty much inherently a bad job. To be frank, I don’t at all understand why someone would go to law school with the hope of getting monotonous work that stunts their career, nor why your response is “why do people have such a bad attitude about this job that has inherently bad qualities?” Even if management were delightful and organized (which evidence suggests it’s not), not that many people want to spend three years in law school to stagnate doing the same unsophisticated work year after year.

As for it being remote, yes, that usually means living anywhere in the country. Firms sometimes run into issues when employees want to live somewhere that the firm doesn’t have an office (there are tax implications), but that’s not going to be an issue for the feds. I don’t know how it works exactly for the BVA but remote jobs on USAjobs are described as anywhere in the country. I don’t work there so can’t comment on what it’s like in practice, but there are definitely employers who decided after Covid that it was more economical to have employees work from home than to keep paying rent on an office building.

Call me crazy but helping veterans get compensation for their sacrifice sounds a lot more rewarding than helping some ceo come to an agreement with some other ceo. And then you can use your vast free time (while still pulling 150k with a pension) to become a ceo of your own entrepreneurial ventures. Sounds like a great trade for 3 years of school that the military is already covering for me, as a vet myself. Not to mention I get to become intimately familiar with our incredible founding documents and understand the legal evolution of the greatest country in the world. Sign me up!

[Anonymous User]

That’s great, then it might just be a really good job for you. You’ve been talking about it entirely in terms of hours and pay so it wasn’t clear you had that kind of emotional connection; I’ve seen someone else describe it in similar terms.

Just keep in mind that 1) you would probably have to deny a lot of veterans’ claims - you’d be working for the government, not vets and 2) it can be tougher to deal with crappy management and lack of support for an issue you feel passionate about than if the content isn’t emotionally compelling to you.

(You aren’t going to become intimately familiar with the founding documents and understanding our legal evolution calls into question the idea that we’re the greatest country in the world, but you do you.)