mid law hiring Forum

[thebeard93]

how do mid law firms that pay close to big law salary hire?
i have looked at a bunch of associate profiles at some of these firms in my home town
ive noticed that most of the associates are graduates from the local lower ranked law schools but the grads are mostly honors graduates
i go to a t-13 but i am currently below median (hopefully at median next semester).

my school has up to a 10-point greater lsat median than some of these local schools, would mid-size firms still prefer a honors grad from a lower school or a median/below median grad from a t-13?

also most of these firms are almost exclusively white. i am diverse but not urm
are these firms all white because they dont get many minority applicants and thus would welcome me as diverse
or are they all white because its a good old boys club and i probably should not apply there?

[Fireworks2016]

Nobody is going to be able to adequately respond to the vague, totally market- and firm-specific thrust of your question.

[UVA2B]

They hire by picking strong candidates for their smaller classes. That can mean a lot of different things.

And yes, smaller firms and mid size firms regularly hire their limited classes from the top of the local schools. Having the best from the local school is still a great selling point for their local clients. And despite a difference in LSAT medians, I'd venture that you're not actually a better prospective lawyer as a T13 below median student compared to the Coif grads from the local school. And I don't mean that to be offensive, it's just a reality. There is nothing actually special about a T13 graduate, and there will regularly be people graduating from lower ranked schools who are better lawyers than you are. And I say that as a fellow T13er.

On the diversity point: maybe? If they are involved in diversity hiring programs, they might be interested in you. But when you're hoping for the 1-3 summer spots at that smaller firm, it's asking a lot to rely on that.

[thebeard93]

They hire by picking strong candidates for their smaller classes. That can mean a lot of different things.

And yes, smaller firms and mid size firms regularly hire their limited classes from the top of the local schools. Having the best from the local school is still a great selling point for their local clients. And despite a difference in LSAT medians, I'd venture that you're not actually a better prospective lawyer as a T13 below median student compared to the Coif grads from the local school. And I don't mean that to be offensive, it's just a reality. There is nothing actually special about a T13 graduate, and there will regularly be people graduating from lower ranked schools who are better lawyers than you are. And I say that as a fellow T13er.

On the diversity point: maybe? If they are involved in diversity hiring programs, they might be interested in you. But when you're hoping for the 1-3 summer spots at that smaller firm, it's asking a lot to rely on that.

thanks for the input...i mostly agree
i would have to disagree with the highlighted though
it just seems irrational to me that a firm would choose honors graduate from a low ranked school over a t-13 median
the curve is so tight at a lot of the t-13's. it really can come down to one or two grades distinguishing deans list and median.
whereas someone at a low ranked school even at its 75th lsat is likely to have scored 10 points lower on the lsat than me.
at the end of the day its clear who among the two has the higher iq and will likely be the superior lawyer
especially when you factor in that i come from a working-class immigrant poor background and my competitor is likely a middle class privileged white male and still scored 10 points lower on the lsat.
of course, im generalizing and there are exceptions but IQ strongly correlates with lsat score and with overall work capability

[runinthefront]

They hire by picking strong candidates for their smaller classes. That can mean a lot of different things.

And yes, smaller firms and mid size firms regularly hire their limited classes from the top of the local schools. Having the best from the local school is still a great selling point for their local clients. And despite a difference in LSAT medians, I'd venture that you're not actually a better prospective lawyer as a T13 below median student compared to the Coif grads from the local school. And I don't mean that to be offensive, it's just a reality. There is nothing actually special about a T13 graduate, and there will regularly be people graduating from lower ranked schools who are better lawyers than you are. And I say that as a fellow T13er.

On the diversity point: maybe? If they are involved in diversity hiring programs, they might be interested in you. But when you're hoping for the 1-3 summer spots at that smaller firm, it's asking a lot to rely on that.

thanks for the input...i mostly agree
i would have to disagree with the highlighted though
it just seems irrational to me that a firm would choose honors graduate from a low ranked school over a t-13 median
the curve is so tight at a lot of the t-13's. it really can come down to one or two grades distinguishing deans list and median.
whereas someone at a low ranked school even at its 75th lsat is likely to have scored 10 points lower on the lsat than me.
at the end of the day its clear who among the two has the higher iq and will likely be the superior lawyer
especially when you factor in that i come from a working-class immigrant poor background and my competitor is likely a middle class privileged white male and still scored 10 points lower on the lsat.
of course, im generalizing and there are exceptions but IQ strongly correlates with lsat score and with overall work capability

[A. Nony Mouse]

They hire by picking strong candidates for their smaller classes. That can mean a lot of different things.

And yes, smaller firms and mid size firms regularly hire their limited classes from the top of the local schools. Having the best from the local school is still a great selling point for their local clients. And despite a difference in LSAT medians, I'd venture that you're not actually a better prospective lawyer as a T13 below median student compared to the Coif grads from the local school. And I don't mean that to be offensive, it's just a reality. There is nothing actually special about a T13 graduate, and there will regularly be people graduating from lower ranked schools who are better lawyers than you are. And I say that as a fellow T13er.

On the diversity point: maybe? If they are involved in diversity hiring programs, they might be interested in you. But when you're hoping for the 1-3 summer spots at that smaller firm, it's asking a lot to rely on that.

thanks for the input...i mostly agree
i would have to disagree with the highlighted though
it just seems irrational to me that a firm would choose honors graduate from a low ranked school over a t-13 median
the curve is so tight at a lot of the t-13's. it really can come down to one or two grades distinguishing deans list and median.
whereas someone at a low ranked school even at its 75th lsat is likely to have scored 10 points lower on the lsat than me.
at the end of the day its clear who among the two has the higher iq and will likely be the superior lawyer
especially when you factor in that i come from a working-class immigrant poor background and my competitor is likely a middle class privileged white male and still scored 10 points lower on the lsat.
of course, im generalizing and there are exceptions but IQ strongly correlates with lsat score and with overall work capability

Oh honey, no.

[UVA2B]

They hire by picking strong candidates for their smaller classes. That can mean a lot of different things.

And yes, smaller firms and mid size firms regularly hire their limited classes from the top of the local schools. Having the best from the local school is still a great selling point for their local clients. And despite a difference in LSAT medians, I'd venture that you're not actually a better prospective lawyer as a T13 below median student compared to the Coif grads from the local school. And I don't mean that to be offensive, it's just a reality. There is nothing actually special about a T13 graduate, and there will regularly be people graduating from lower ranked schools who are better lawyers than you are. And I say that as a fellow T13er.

On the diversity point: maybe? If they are involved in diversity hiring programs, they might be interested in you. But when you're hoping for the 1-3 summer spots at that smaller firm, it's asking a lot to rely on that.

thanks for the input...i mostly agree
i would have to disagree with the highlighted though
it just seems irrational to me that a firm would choose honors graduate from a low ranked school over a t-13 median
the curve is so tight at a lot of the t-13's. it really can come down to one or two grades distinguishing deans list and median.
whereas someone at a low ranked school even at its 75th lsat is likely to have scored 10 points lower on the lsat than me.
at the end of the day its clear who among the two has the higher iq and will likely be the superior lawyer
especially when you factor in that i come from a working-class immigrant poor background and my competitor is likely a middle class privileged white male and still scored 10 points lower on the lsat.
of course, im generalizing and there are exceptions but IQ strongly correlates with lsat score and with overall work capability

You're generalizing, and you're categorically wrong. Keep in mind that the hiring needs of firms has less to do with a rack and stack of some perceived intelligence than it does of a perceived ability to bring value to the firm. Prior to law school, LSAT and GPA are the best indicators of law school performance, but they're really imperfect. So once hiring happens, there is law school-related data that suggests abilities in the legal profession, even if it's an imprecise amount of data.

Stop using the LSAT to generalize intelligence, and more importantly, stop thinking that this has any impact on the hiring needs of firms. As a 1L, you have next to zero abilities in the legal field. And so does the person at the local school grading at the top of their class. But at least they have top performance in law school, which you don't have. Having worked alongside a mix of the types you think are so easily distinguishable, I'll save you the suspense: that's just not reality. Lower ranked schools regularly graduate better lawyers than the T13, and it has nothing to do with the LSAT or an UGPA.

T13 is a better school choice if you want to have reasonable assurance that you can get Biglaw, but that doesn't mean you'll get the nod over better performing people from lower ranked schools all the time. Maybe you will at a firm that values the prestige of the school, while a lot of firms will actually value the high-performing student from a lower ranked school for several equally important reasons.

You might disagree, but you have no basis for disagreeing beyond how you think hiring works in the legal profession. It's different than you're imagining.

[KissMyAxe]

They hire by picking strong candidates for their smaller classes. That can mean a lot of different things.

And yes, smaller firms and mid size firms regularly hire their limited classes from the top of the local schools. Having the best from the local school is still a great selling point for their local clients. And despite a difference in LSAT medians, I'd venture that you're not actually a better prospective lawyer as a T13 below median student compared to the Coif grads from the local school. And I don't mean that to be offensive, it's just a reality. There is nothing actually special about a T13 graduate, and there will regularly be people graduating from lower ranked schools who are better lawyers than you are. And I say that as a fellow T13er.

On the diversity point: maybe? If they are involved in diversity hiring programs, they might be interested in you. But when you're hoping for the 1-3 summer spots at that smaller firm, it's asking a lot to rely on that.

thanks for the input...i mostly agree
i would have to disagree with the highlighted though
it just seems irrational to me that a firm would choose honors graduate from a low ranked school over a t-13 median
the curve is so tight at a lot of the t-13's. it really can come down to one or two grades distinguishing deans list and median.
whereas someone at a low ranked school even at its 75th lsat is likely to have scored 10 points lower on the lsat than me.
at the end of the day its clear who among the two has the higher iq and will likely be the superior lawyer
especially when you factor in that i come from a working-class immigrant poor background and my competitor is likely a middle class privileged white male and still scored 10 points lower on the lsat.
of course, im generalizing and there are exceptions but IQ strongly correlates with lsat score and with overall work capability

This has to be flame, right?

Just in case, no, just no. The LSAT has no real correlation with IQ, which is not the same as intelligence at any rate. That is what this site largely disproves, that anyone can do well on the LSAT if they understand how to correctly prepare and are willing to dedicate the time. At the end of the day, the LSAT is used for one reason, to predict success in law school.

You say these top students did more poorly on their LSAT. However, they have been successful in law school, you have not. It's the equivalent of you being an olympic runner. In the qualifying race, you win. However, then the real race starts, and you immediately trip and break your nose, your arm, and your leg, while the person you beat in the qualifiers does well. It doesn't matter if you think you are faster. You're losing in the race that actually matters, and no amount of weird elitism will change that.

[Dr.Degrees_Cr.Cash]

A) sorry if I shouldn't post on this as an 0L, it just seems strongly linked to my issue

B) I'm currently deffered at Duke, but am hoping to go to a secondary market in FL. Should I go to UF instead since it sounds like you gotta be top of the class either way if you want secondary midlaw? I'm not saying that someone at a t13 deserves a more lenient gpa requirement, but if my choices are free local school or 100k for prestige that no firms I want to work at care about shouldn't I pick option 1?

[BigZuck]

The top of the class local school grads are almost certainly smarter than you/better lawyers than you based on my (admittedly limited) experience.

Why do you even want to work at these types of firms? If you have a good reason (guessing you don't based on your posts but hopefully you do) then just focus on that, play up your wanting to return to your hometown to work in the local community, etc. Or just focus on NYC like the rest of your classmates, that's probably safer.

[PeanutsNJam]

They hire by picking strong candidates for their smaller classes. That can mean a lot of different things.

And yes, smaller firms and mid size firms regularly hire their limited classes from the top of the local schools. Having the best from the local school is still a great selling point for their local clients. And despite a difference in LSAT medians, I'd venture that you're not actually a better prospective lawyer as a T13 below median student compared to the Coif grads from the local school. And I don't mean that to be offensive, it's just a reality. There is nothing actually special about a T13 graduate, and there will regularly be people graduating from lower ranked schools who are better lawyers than you are. And I say that as a fellow T13er.

On the diversity point: maybe? If they are involved in diversity hiring programs, they might be interested in you. But when you're hoping for the 1-3 summer spots at that smaller firm, it's asking a lot to rely on that.

thanks for the input...i mostly agree
i would have to disagree with the highlighted though
it just seems irrational to me that a firm would choose honors graduate from a low ranked school over a t-13 median
the curve is so tight at a lot of the t-13's. it really can come down to one or two grades distinguishing deans list and median.
whereas someone at a low ranked school even at its 75th lsat is likely to have scored 10 points lower on the lsat than me.
at the end of the day its clear who among the two has the higher iq and will likely be the superior lawyer
especially when you factor in that i come from a working-class immigrant poor background and my competitor is likely a middle class privileged white male and still scored 10 points lower on the lsat.
of course, im generalizing and there are exceptions but IQ strongly correlates with lsat score and with overall work capability

UVA you baited this gem out excellently.

[lavarman84]

They hire by picking strong candidates for their smaller classes. That can mean a lot of different things.

And yes, smaller firms and mid size firms regularly hire their limited classes from the top of the local schools. Having the best from the local school is still a great selling point for their local clients. And despite a difference in LSAT medians, I'd venture that you're not actually a better prospective lawyer as a T13 below median student compared to the Coif grads from the local school. And I don't mean that to be offensive, it's just a reality. There is nothing actually special about a T13 graduate, and there will regularly be people graduating from lower ranked schools who are better lawyers than you are. And I say that as a fellow T13er.

On the diversity point: maybe? If they are involved in diversity hiring programs, they might be interested in you. But when you're hoping for the 1-3 summer spots at that smaller firm, it's asking a lot to rely on that.

thanks for the input...i mostly agree
i would have to disagree with the highlighted though
it just seems irrational to me that a firm would choose honors graduate from a low ranked school over a t-13 median
the curve is so tight at a lot of the t-13's. it really can come down to one or two grades distinguishing deans list and median.
whereas someone at a low ranked school even at its 75th lsat is likely to have scored 10 points lower on the lsat than me.
at the end of the day its clear who among the two has the higher iq and will likely be the superior lawyer
especially when you factor in that i come from a working-class immigrant poor background and my competitor is likely a middle class privileged white male and still scored 10 points lower on the lsat.
of course, im generalizing and there are exceptions but IQ strongly correlates with lsat score and with overall work capability

I respect it. Solid troll here.