Boies v Weil v Debevoise NY Lit Forum

[Anonymous User]

If you enjoyed the people at all three firms (with slight preference for Boies/Debevoise), which would you pick for lit? Leaning towards Boies because I would like to do a lot of plaintiff work, but I am worried about the leverage ratio.

[Anonymous User]

I summered at Boies this year. In my (biased) opinion, I would take Boies for the bonuses alone, but definitely take Boies if you're interested in plaintiff's side work. What about the leverage ratio worries you?

[Anonymous User]

Boies seems like an easy call here for lit.

[Nebby]

Boies seems like an easy call here for lit.

[Anonymous User]

OP. Thank you for input. The leverage makes me worry about whether I will get substantive work and contact with partners.

[Anonymous User]

Same anon who summered there. Not sure where you would get that concern. I don't know as much about the other firms, but if anything Boies is famous for having an unusually low leverage ratio. For example, there are 44 partners (https://www.bsfllp.com/lawyers/?t=3038&of=1506) and 28 associates (https://www.bsfllp.com/lawyers/?t=3041&of=1506) in the NYC office. You'll get plenty of partner contact and substantive work (that certainly was my anecdotal experience there).

[Anonymous User]

AmLaw. I know that metric only takes into account equity partners, but I guess I was worried anyway.

[Anonymous User]

Well, fret no more. Congrats!

[PeanutsNJam]

Just to reinforce, easily boies

[BlendedUnicorn]

I'd be more worried about 3,000 hour years than anything else at Boies. If that doesn't phase you, the choice is obvious.

[jbagelboy]

I'd be more worried about 3,000 hour years than anything else at Boies. If that doesn't phase you, the choice is obvious.

Yeah. I mean Boies will kill you. Obviously its the best firm for litigation experience but taking Debevoise here to have more semblance of a life and work structure is not crazy if those things were to matter more to you

[Anonymous User]

I'd be more worried about 3,000 hour years than anything else at Boies. If that doesn't phase you, the choice is obvious.

Yeah. I mean Boies will kill you. Obviously its the best firm for litigation experience but taking Debevoise here to have more semblance of a life and work structure is not crazy if those things were to matter more to you

Well...I'd prefer to stay alive, all things considered. Do you think there is really a substantial difference in the number of hours? I know I'd work more hours at Boies than Debevoise, but I figured I'd have to work a fair amount at Debevoise, too.

ETA: I also thought that getting substantive work might make the hours more bearable, but I am open to being wrong.

[Anonymous User]

I'd be more worried about 3,000 hour years than anything else at Boies. If that doesn't phase you, the choice is obvious.

Yeah. I mean Boies will kill you. Obviously its the best firm for litigation experience but taking Debevoise here to have more semblance of a life and work structure is not crazy if those things were to matter more to you

Well...I'd prefer to stay alive, all things considered. Do you think there is really a substantial difference in the number of hours? I know I'd work more hours at Boies than Debevoise, but I figured I'd have to work a fair amount at Debevoise, too.

ETA: I also thought that getting substantive work might make the hours more bearable, but I am open to being wrong.

Very substantial difference considering what your life will be like working 1.9-2.2k compared to 2.5-3k hours.

[Anonymous User]

I'd be more worried about 3,000 hour years than anything else at Boies. If that doesn't phase you, the choice is obvious.

Yeah. I mean Boies will kill you. Obviously its the best firm for litigation experience but taking Debevoise here to have more semblance of a life and work structure is not crazy if those things were to matter more to you

Well...I'd prefer to stay alive, all things considered. Do you think there is really a substantial difference in the number of hours? I know I'd work more hours at Boies than Debevoise, but I figured I'd have to work a fair amount at Debevoise, too.

ETA: I also thought that getting substantive work might make the hours more bearable, but I am open to being wrong.

Very substantial difference considering what your life will be like working 1.9-2.2k compared to 2.5-3k hours.

Thank you for your input! I definitely need to think about that. May I ask if you are the same anon who summered at Boies?

[BlendedUnicorn]

I'd be more worried about 3,000 hour years than anything else at Boies. If that doesn't phase you, the choice is obvious.

Yeah. I mean Boies will kill you. Obviously its the best firm for litigation experience but taking Debevoise here to have more semblance of a life and work structure is not crazy if those things were to matter more to you

Well...I'd prefer to stay alive, all things considered. Do you think there is really a substantial difference in the number of hours? I know I'd work more hours at Boies than Debevoise, but I figured I'd have to work a fair amount at Debevoise, too.

ETA: I also thought that getting substantive work might make the hours more bearable, but I am open to being wrong.

I'm honestly in no position to day with any degree of certainty- I interviewed at Boies but didn't make the final cut so I only know what I've heard through the grapevine and in those interviews. What I can say is multiple associates told me they were coming off back to back 3,000 hour + years. You're probably going to be swamped in lit no matter where you are if you have a big case going to trial, but that's kind of Boies's schtick so it's more likely that you'll be in that position.

That being said, if you can tough it out there for 3 years or so your exit options are probably going to be about as good as they get for lit.

[Anonymous User]

I'd be more worried about 3,000 hour years than anything else at Boies. If that doesn't phase you, the choice is obvious.

Yeah. I mean Boies will kill you. Obviously its the best firm for litigation experience but taking Debevoise here to have more semblance of a life and work structure is not crazy if those things were to matter more to you

Well...I'd prefer to stay alive, all things considered. Do you think there is really a substantial difference in the number of hours? I know I'd work more hours at Boies than Debevoise, but I figured I'd have to work a fair amount at Debevoise, too.

ETA: I also thought that getting substantive work might make the hours more bearable, but I am open to being wrong.

I'm honestly in no position to day with any degree of certainty- I interviewed at Boies but didn't make the final cut so I only know what I've heard through the grapevine and in those interviews. What I can say is multiple associates told me they were coming off back to back 3,000 hour + years. You're probably going to be swamped in lit no matter where you are if you have a big case going to trial, but that's kind of Boies's schtick so it's more likely that you'll be in that position.

That being said, if you can tough it out there for 3 years or so your exit options are probably going to be about as good as they get for lit.

Thanks so much; this is very helpful. I don't mind a killer number of hours as a result of big cases going to trial. However, I would mind working huge hours if the vast majority of those hours were sheer drudgery.

[Lacepiece23]

I'd be more worried about 3,000 hour years than anything else at Boies. If that doesn't phase you, the choice is obvious.

Yeah. I mean Boies will kill you. Obviously its the best firm for litigation experience but taking Debevoise here to have more semblance of a life and work structure is not crazy if those things were to matter more to you

Well...I'd prefer to stay alive, all things considered. Do you think there is really a substantial difference in the number of hours? I know I'd work more hours at Boies than Debevoise, but I figured I'd have to work a fair amount at Debevoise, too.

ETA: I also thought that getting substantive work might make the hours more bearable, but I am open to being wrong.

I'm honestly in no position to day with any degree of certainty- I interviewed at Boies but didn't make the final cut so I only know what I've heard through the grapevine and in those interviews. What I can say is multiple associates told me they were coming off back to back 3,000 hour + years. You're probably going to be swamped in lit no matter where you are if you have a big case going to trial, but that's kind of Boies's schtick so it's more likely that you'll be in that position.

That being said, if you can tough it out there for 3 years or so your exit options are probably going to be about as good as they get for lit.

Thanks so much; this is very helpful. I don't mind a killer number of hours as a result of big cases going to trial. However, I would mind working huge hours if the vast majority of those hours were sheer drudgery.

Sometimes substantive work takes its toll too. I have very little document review, and I salivate when I get it. Sometimes I look forward to proofreading, cite checking, etc. because it's a break from writing briefs, discovery, and research, all of which I consider somewhat mentally draining.

I couldn't imagine working 3k hours and having no easy work to fall back on at times. Also, as a junior, almost all of your work will involve sitting behind a computer. Senior associates billing that much may have depositions, trial, and travel sprinkled into their hours. You will not.

[Anonymous User]

Boies summer anon here (earlier anon was not me). Take my observations with a grain of salt since, of course, I'm not actually an associate yet, but here are some things I would consider in regard to the hours:

1) There are basically no non-billable obligations. That means that the billable hours figures you hear from Boies associates are almost the entire amount of time they spent working. So while 3000 is still a lot, it's probably comparable to 2600-2700 hours at another firm (completely pulled this number out of my ass, but just pointing out that it is a significant difference).

2) I think people on TLS exaggerate. There definitely are associates that bill 3000 hours, but I don't think it's the norm. I'd say closer to 2600 is the norm. Still not a "lifestyle" figure, but not that different from other firms, particularly when you factor in the non-billable difference.

3) I think most of the megabillers (3000+) do it by choice. Your bonus at Boies is a function of how many hours you bill, among other things, and so some people try to amass as many as they can to maximize the bonus. From talking to associates and what I've seen, it's usually no problem to say no to new work if you're already on a lot of cases.

4) Some of it is luck of the draw, though. Cases can be pretty calm for a long time, but you're gonna work long hours if a trial is approaching or something else happens. Where it gets really crazy is if emergencies happen in multiple cases at one time, which is hard to predict but it's a reality in this line of work. (Boies might be particularly susceptible to these types of "emergencies" because we handle more cases that are close to the trial stage than do many peer firms.) This is how involuntary 3000+ hour years happen; I would go in maybe not expecting this, but knowing it is a real possibility.

5) People always say they want substantive work and early responsibility. Boies gives that, but the flip side is that you can't dodge the work if emergencies come up (and they will). I think the work is about as interesting as you'll find in biglaw, which will make the hours worth it for some people and not for others. Depends on your personality.

[PeanutsNJam]

Even if you're billing at 100% efficiency, 3000 hours is billing 8.22 hours/day if you're working 365 days a year.

If you take every Sunday off but don't take any holidays off (even Christmas) and take no vacations, you'll have to bill 9.61 hours a day, every day.

[Anonymous User]

Boies summer anon here (earlier anon was not me). Take my observations with a grain of salt since, of course, I'm not actually an associate yet, but here are some things I would consider in regard to the hours:

1) There are basically no non-billable obligations. That means that the billable hours figures you hear from Boies associates are almost the entire amount of time they spent working. So while 3000 is still a lot, it's probably comparable to 2600-2700 hours at another firm (completely pulled this number out of my ass, but just pointing out that it is a significant difference).

2) I think people on TLS exaggerate. There definitely are associates that bill 3000 hours, but I don't think it's the norm. I'd say closer to 2600 is the norm. Still not a "lifestyle" figure, but not that different from other firms, particularly when you factor in the non-billable difference.

3) I think most of the megabillers (3000+) do it by choice. Your bonus at Boies is a function of how many hours you bill, among other things, and so some people try to amass as many as they can to maximize the bonus. From talking to associates and what I've seen, it's usually no problem to say no to new work if you're already on a lot of cases.

4) Some of it is luck of the draw, though. Cases can be pretty calm for a long time, but you're gonna work long hours if a trial is approaching or something else happens. Where it gets really crazy is if emergencies happen in multiple cases at one time, which is hard to predict but it's a reality in this line of work. (Boies might be particularly susceptible to these types of "emergencies" because we handle more cases that are close to the trial stage than do many peer firms.) This is how involuntary 3000+ hour years happen; I would go in maybe not expecting this, but knowing it is a real possibility.

5) People always say they want substantive work and early responsibility. Boies gives that, but the flip side is that you can't dodge the work if emergencies come up (and they will). I think the work is about as interesting as you'll find in biglaw, which will make the hours worth it for some people and not for others. Depends on your personality.

Thanks so much! Would you pick Boies again?

[Anonymous User]

Even if you're billing at 100% efficiency, 3000 hours is billing 8.22 hours/day if you're working 365 days a year.

If you take every Sunday off but don't take any holidays off (even Christmas) and take no vacations, you'll have to bill 9.61 hours a day, every day.

Yeesh, that's a lot.

[unlicensedpotato]

Even if you're billing at 100% efficiency, 3000 hours is billing 8.22 hours/day if you're working 365 days a year.

If you take every Sunday off but don't take any holidays off (even Christmas) and take no vacations, you'll have to bill 9.61 hours a day, every day.

Yeesh, that's a lot.

3000 hours in a year is a ton and would probably kill me. I would never want to do that.

That said, the math above is a little misleading. When you're slammed, you can bill 15+ hours in a single "day" (including after midnight hours) easily. So like if you're at Boies and billing 18 per day, you're knocking two days off that schedule.

[Nebby]

Even if you're billing at 100% efficiency, 3000 hours is billing 8.22 hours/day if you're working 365 days a year.

If you take every Sunday off but don't take any holidays off (even Christmas) and take no vacations, you'll have to bill 9.61 hours a day, every day.

Yeesh, that's a lot.

3000 hours in a year is a ton and would probably kill me. I would never want to do that.

That said, the math above is a little misleading. When you're slammed, you can bill 15+ hours in a single "day" (including after midnight hours) easily. So like if you're at Boies and billing 18 per day, you're knocking two days off that schedule.

Lol

[Anonymous User]

Even if you're billing at 100% efficiency, 3000 hours is billing 8.22 hours/day if you're working 365 days a year.

If you take every Sunday off but don't take any holidays off (even Christmas) and take no vacations, you'll have to bill 9.61 hours a day, every day.

I mean, any biglaw hours are going to sound scary when you put it that way. For example, if you're billing 2200 hours at 80% efficiency, you're working 7.53 hours/day if you work 365 days a year. I'm not saying it's not a lot, but personally the marginal difference in Boies hours doesn't scare me away given the upside in interesting work and pay. YMMV, though.

I'm not 100% sure if unlicensedpotato is being sarcastic or not, but s/he's right that the high hours typically come from having some very long days. On most weekends, you'll either not work or only work a few hours. But other times you'll be slammed. That schedule may or may not work well for you, but I don't think it's that different than other biglaw firms. It's not like you'll never work long nights at Debevoise or Weil.

Thanks so much! Would you pick Boies again?

No question.