Completely lost on how to choose firm/job Forum

[malibustacy]

OP here.

Thanks again for the replies. I see the theme from the new posts is to find out more about different jobs; does anyone have advice on how to go about doing this? It seems to me that all the potential fields that I research are either the same grinding kind of work (ibanking, consulting, biglaw) or things that I either have zero interest in or actively dislike (clerkships, academia, government work). I think a big part is that of all the things that I enjoy doing in life, I can't get paid to do any of them. This makes me skeptical that I would be able to find a job that would ever be more than a chore, a means to an end, although I am open to the possibility and would love to learn more about how to explore different options.

In response to most recent anon post, thank you for the empathy and advice. One reaction I had is that I don't think I am espousing a position of letting a job define me or getting caught up in a firm name/job title, much the opposite in fact. I would gladly take a job offer with the title of "Menial Laborer" at "NoName LLC" essentially without regard to what tasks it involved (as long it was not physically dangerous) if it had a sufficiently high compensation:hours worked ratio. Basically I think that there is nothing (that is compensable) that I "like" to do enough to make a job distinguishable. For example, I have felt essentially the same way about manual labor jobs that I had in high school, finance internships in college, and my SA position this summer (caveat that I have only been at it 4 weeks). In fact I may have enjoyed the manual labor jobs the most simply because they were active and outdoors, but a career in manual labor is obviously not conducive to retiring early and comfortably.

Thanks again for all the advice; I realize that I am coming off as fairly difficult and that I may have gotten all the advice that I can get at this point, but if anyone has suggestions on ways to go about exploring the possibilities of jobs that I may actually enjoy (given that it seems that I don't really have a passion for/enjoyment of anything compensable), as well as any other information/suggestions or further advice on how to "cash in" on my situation quickly/painlessly, I would love to hear them.

You just haven't found the right thing yet. Maybe you'll find a practice are you're passionate in; if not, high level in-house or General Counsel work provides a great work-to-compensation ratio at the highest levels.

If moving to Boston, Ropes/Wilmer/Goodwin will offer top notch compensation and the best exit opportunities. Many in-house positions in Boston provide a comfortable living.

[Anonymous User]

(1) I also think you should do Ropes/Wilmer/Goodwin if you want to practice law. Consulting could also be up your alley, but there is a lot of travel involved and that may not be what you want.

(2) OP, what would you do with your time if you didn't need to earn a living?

[PeanutsNJam]

Dude has no interest in litigation, so the only "unicorn" options available are like Wachtell and MBB. Neither seem to fit his criteria that well. Wachtell has great $$$ at the cost of all of his other priorities (excluding 5 since that is a wash), and MBB's money is not great $$$ (great $$$ meaning substantially above biglaw market) but has some (possibly? idk) great exit options (who knows if they pay enough for OP).

You can only really "capitalize" on tippy top grades from HYS if you're willing to do something litigation oriented and/or you're not region-locked into "somewhere near Boston". Clerking, appellate lit, boutique (Bartlit, Susman, etc.), Bristow Fellowship, ~entertainment law~, whatever. This is like having a PhD from MIT in nuclear physics but not wanting to do anything really physics related.

It looks like your only options are Wachtell or top Boston corporate firms, the latter of which you probably can figure out for yourself.

[OutCold]

There really aren't any entry level legal jobs that are going to pay more than big law market but that don't require as many if not more hours than the average firm. Your best bet with your listed priorities is what people have already said--big law corporate group to in-house in a few years. The thing I would worry about most if I were you is whether you will even be content in the legal profession long term given your clear lack of interest. It's not a bad thing--I'm not too keen on law myself after several years of practice. It just makes it much easier to burn out, and even in-house hours are not going to be great compared to other career paths.

[Plurple_Unicorn]

Since you mention you are K-JD - have you ever worked grinding hours at a job you don't care about in any way?

Also you need actually to be interested in/have ideas about law to be a law professor.

This is my biggest pet peeve with most law/MBA students. OP, for your own sanity, work in a field you are passionate about. You will be miserable working 14+ hour days at a job that you have little regard for. I'm a paralegal at an Am100 firm. I see too many newly minted JD's who are bitter about their work environment.
Big law job security is a myth; layoffs do happen, not to mention that if you don't hit your billable targets, you will be out on the curb.
Money won't buy you happiness. Please consider your relationship with your spouse. If you're miserable, it will be dificult to contribute in a positive way to your marriage.
Parting words:
Don't go into professional school with the sole intent of maximizing wealth. It doesn't always work out that way. Ask your self these questions, where do your passions lie? Do you like working with people? Do you like working with your hands? If you had an infinite life, what would you do?
Good luck, OP.

[ernie]

Since you mention you are K-JD - have you ever worked grinding hours at a job you don't care about in any way?

Also you need actually to be interested in/have ideas about law to be a law professor.

This is my biggest pet peeve with most law/MBA students. OP, for your own sanity, work in a field you are passionate about. You will be miserable working 14+ hour days at a job that you have little regard for. I'm a paralegal at an Am100 firm. I see too many newly minted JD's who are bitter about their work environment.
Big law job security is a myth; layoffs do happen, not to mention that if you don't hit your billable targets, you will be out on the curb.
Money won't buy you happiness. Please consider your relationship with your spouse. If you're miserable, it will be dificult to contribute in a positive way to your marriage.
Parting words:
Don't go into professional school with the sole intent of maximizing wealth. It doesn't always work out that way. Ask your self these questions, where do your passions lie? Do you like working with people? Do you like working with your hands? If you had an infinite life, what would you do?
Good luck, OP.

Don't post on Legal Employment as a 0L.

[Plurple_Unicorn]

Since you mention you are K-JD - have you ever worked grinding hours at a job you don't care about in any way?

Also you need actually to be interested in/have ideas about law to be a law professor.

This is my biggest pet peeve with most law/MBA students. OP, for your own sanity, work in a field you are passionate about. You will be miserable working 14+ hour days at a job that you have little regard for. I'm a paralegal at an Am100 firm. I see too many newly minted JD's who are bitter about their work environment.
Big law job security is a myth; layoffs do happen, not to mention that if you don't hit your billable targets, you will be out on the curb.
Money won't buy you happiness. Please consider your relationship with your spouse. If you're miserable, it will be dificult to contribute in a positive way to your marriage.
Parting words:
Don't go into professional school with the sole intent of maximizing wealth. It doesn't always work out that way. Ask your self these questions, where do your passions lie? Do you like working with people? Do you like working with your hands? If you had an infinite life, what would you do?
Good luck, OP.

Don't post on Legal Employment as a 0L.

Oops, didn't realize I couldn't do that. Thanks for the heads up.

[Anonymous User]

In response to Nony's question above, I have not worked grinding hours at a job I don't care about. But I have not been able to come up with a job that I would care about, so it seems to me that I would rather work grinding hours for X number of years at a job I don't care about that will pay a lot than work less-grinding hours for 2X years at a job that I equally don't care about that will pay much less.

Just to follow up on this - I definitely don't think you have to live for your job or identify yourself by what you do. But I also think life goes much better if you can find work you enjoy or at least feel satisfaction doing, which it frankly doesn't sound like you have. So I guess my reaction to all this is that in the grand scheme of things you might be better off finding out more about jobs (and what you actually like to do, since as a K-JD you don't have a lot of data to work with)?

Though I get that doesn't help you with your immediate question, to which people who know Boston firms will be better at answering. I'd say, just pick a bunch of good firms to apply to and go to the one with the people you like best, as my understanding is that this makes the biggest difference day to day and I doubt they will result in radically different outcomes.

I've had an outlook very similar to OP's at points in my life and have done plenty of other jobs that I liked as much or more than working in biglaw (I was also K-JD). You'll become accustomed to the pay very quickly but that works both ways -- yes, you won't want to do a job that is just as much of a grind for way less money, but you'll also forget what it was like to work for less money and you'll become dissatisfied if your well-paying job isn't rewarding, even though you're making good money. Generally speaking this is even worse for intelligent people. If you're going to do biglaw and want the transactional side I would look at tax and bankruptcy instead of corporate. People quit jobs everyday that pay a lot more than biglaw associate because they're unfulfilled doing it -- if you aren't at least interested in what you're doing, it will be very hard to last. You can do any of these jobs as a means to end, so I would try and think of a fulfilling place to end up and then work backward.

[rpupkin]

Dumb objection. That's not an average salary for new law profs, even tenure-track at top schools.

I'm not denying law profs make good money. But if OP is primarily concerned with making money and retiring as soon as possible, this course makes the least amount of sense.

Given OP's post and "idc" attitude, you really think that he'd be willing to bill 2400+ hours/year at WLRK for more than like 2 months?

Billing a bunch of hours with an "idc" attitude is much easier than becoming a law professor with an "idc" attitude.

[NonTradHealthLaw]

As a K-JD and obviously an impressively high-functioning human, you may be feeling a bit of "eff it" burn out. My advice would be to opt for one of the aforementioned firms in Boston and to get involved with the community through non-law volunteering. Even if you may be stealing from Peter to pay Paul w.r.t. hours in the day, you need more exposure to grasp your options and discover what piques your interests. With your grades, a SCOTUS clerkship may still be on the table 2-3 years after graduation. But, you may also find in those first years of practice a passion you hadn't experienced through the academic masturbation that is law school. And, if a law firm is not your answer, by getting involved in the community, you'll be exposed to different ideas and options that broaden your exit strategy intelligence and you may meet those entrepreneurs who need intelligent counsel and who reward them with ownership/stock options.

[Barrred]

Not sure that this is actually a good answer to OP's dilemma (i'm really just spit-balling here), but since OP doesn't seem like he has the desire to pursue any of the available unicorn opportunities to capitalize on his stats, and the general advice seems to be that he do corporate biglaw in Boston, wouldn't his best bet be to go to the least-prestigious Boston firm that pays market, has a corporate group, and is somewhat financially stable?

My thinking here is that if OP is really trying to maximize compensation:hours, the least prestigious firms are probably going to have the least high-stakes/stressful work that would keep OP working constantly. Even if the billable hour requirements are the same at high and low ranked firms, at the very least OP may be better able to just phone it in at a less prestigious firm by relying only on his intellectual horsepower (at least compared to his peers at the firm). This advice is resting on the assumption that less prestigious firms that still pay market may have lower hourly requirements/are less stressful/have better quality-of-life than top firms. (This assumption could be totally wrong, however, as I have no experience with these types of firms).

This plan would surely be a waste of OP's stats, but given his priorities and aversion to the traditional unicorn opportunities, it might be his best option (market pay is market pay, and 180K/yr is still a lot of money).

What do people think?

[in house lawyer]

Since you mention you are K-JD - have you ever worked grinding hours at a job you don't care about in any way?

Also you need actually to be interested in/have ideas about law to be a law professor.

This is my biggest pet peeve with most law/MBA students. OP, for your own sanity, work in a field you are passionate about. You will be miserable working 14+ hour days at a job that you have little regard for. I'm a paralegal at an Am100 firm. I see too many newly minted JD's who are bitter about their work environment.
Big law job security is a myth; layoffs do happen, not to mention that if you don't hit your billable targets, you will be out on the curb.
Money won't buy you happiness. Please consider your relationship with your spouse. If you're miserable, it will be dificult to contribute in a positive way to your marriage.
Parting words:
Don't go into professional school with the sole intent of maximizing wealth. It doesn't always work out that way. Ask your self these questions, where do your passions lie? Do you like working with people? Do you like working with your hands? If you had an infinite life, what would you do?
Good luck, OP.

Not everyone has a passion, and that's fine. You can pick your work based on the money and still be a happy, well-adjusted human being. I was K-JD as well and went into law school and biglaw with the same attitude that law was just a means to an end (although I went to a non-HYS T14). I've been very happy with the results.

OP, when you say you want to retire early, do you mean in your 30s? Or 50s? A 10 year plan will be different from a 30 year plan.

[heythatslife]

wouldn't his best bet be to go to the least-prestigious Boston firm that pays market, has a corporate group, and is somewhat financially stable?

Which Boston firms are you talking about, since I can't think of any that fit your description? Also, less prestigious = less work is not a sound assumption to operate on.

[Barrred]

wouldn't his best bet be to go to the least-prestigious Boston firm that pays market, has a corporate group, and is somewhat financially stable?

Which Boston firms are you talking about, since I can't think of any that fit your description? Also, less prestigious = less work is not a sound assumption to operate on.

I don't know anything about the Boston market, I was just speculating that there must be a lower tier of market-paying firms. What about Brown & Rudnick?

The less prestigious =/= less work criticism is probably fair, but I suspect there might be something to this, at least at the margins.

[Anonymous User]

OP here.

I know I'm going all broken-record on you guys, but sincere thanks again for the replies. It means a lot that you would take time to provide whatever help and insight you can.

Trying to go through and respond chronologically:

To anon from 7:20: If I didn't need to earn a living I would do essentially the same stuff I do in my free time now, just more of it. Without getting into too much detail, this is mostly just outdoorsy stuff, various sports, videogames, learning various musical instruments, reading books that catch my interest, etc. (pretty much just a list of general hobbies that people have, I don't have one specific hobby like building computers or writing music that could potentially turn into a career).

In response to PnJ, you mention that one can only capitalize on top grades if I'm willing to do something litigation oriented, but I was under the impression that those litigation oriented positions don't pay more than my other options (maybe just more prestigious?). If Clerking, appellate lit, boutique, or Bristow Fellowship provided a significant increase in compensation/earning potential over the medium-term (~10 years), I would definitely be willing to pursue them, but I thought that wasn't the case. I could be totally wrong (I would love to be), so feel free to correct/clarify.

In response to Plurple, thanks for the advice and well-wishes, but like in house lawyer said, some people just don't really have a "passion" for anything. So telling them not to do something for money but rather to do what they are passionate about is sometimes not applicable. For me, the closest thing to something I am "passionate" about would be the things I do in my free time, so trying to find a job just for the money so that I can stop working early and have more free time might actually be the best way to pursue my passions.

In response to in house lawyer, when I say I want to retire early, I am hoping 30s rather than 50s. So I'm trying to think of things that maximize earning potential over a 10-15 year period rather than 30 year period.

Also thanks to NonTradHealthLaw in particular for the recommendations on how to find things I'm interested in. That was really helpful and I will bear that in mind.

[Night_L]

Since you mention you are K-JD - have you ever worked grinding hours at a job you don't care about in any way?

Also you need actually to be interested in/have ideas about law to be a law professor.

This is my biggest pet peeve with most law/MBA students. OP, for your own sanity, work in a field you are passionate about. You will be miserable working 14+ hour days at a job that you have little regard for. I'm a paralegal at an Am100 firm. I see too many newly minted JD's who are bitter about their work environment.
Big law job security is a myth; layoffs do happen, not to mention that if you don't hit your billable targets, you will be out on the curb.
Money won't buy you happiness. Please consider your relationship with your spouse. If you're miserable, it will be dificult to contribute in a positive way to your marriage.
Parting words:
Don't go into professional school with the sole intent of maximizing wealth. It doesn't always work out that way. Ask your self these questions, where do your passions lie? Do you like working with people? Do you like working with your hands? If you had an infinite life, what would you do?
Good luck, OP.

Not everyone has a passion, and that's fine.

Not everyone has a passion but it's still a question worth asking. WTF is your problem? Passion or not, work that genuinely motivates you to get up in the morning beats meaningless grind every time.

You can pick your work based on the money and still be a happy, well-adjusted human being. I was K-JD as well and went into law school and biglaw with the same attitude that law was just a means to an end (although I went to a non-HYS T14). I've been very happy with the results.

That's wonderful. But doing something you genuinely enjoy or love is even better, and it's worth the introspection or self-exploration to find out.

The less prestigious =/= less work criticism is probably fair, but I suspect there might be something to this, at least at the margins.

While the concept of being a big fish in a small pond is grossly underrated on this prestige-obsessed board, this case is not a good example. To the extent that OP's exceptional aptitude for law school translates unblemished to legal practice, he or she would be a big fish virtually anywhere with those grades.

[in house lawyer]

Not everyone has a passion, and that's fine.

Not everyone has a passion but it's still a question worth asking. WTF is your problem? Passion or not, work that genuinely motivates you to get up in the morning beats meaningless grind every time.

OP is a grown adult who’s intelligent and motivated enough to get into HYS. S/he would have figured out if s/he had a passion by now. And besides the fact that OP made it pretty clear s/he didn't have one, it's pretty useless and clichéd advice. Passion is not the same as meaningful work. (A good book on this topic is So Good They Can’t Ignore You by Cal Newport.)

[in house lawyer]

In response to in house lawyer, when I say I want to retire early, I am hoping 30s rather than 50s. So I'm trying to think of things that maximize earning potential over a 10-15 year period rather than 30 year period.

I had the same goal - I've been practicing less than 10 years and recently hit the lower end of my retirement number range. Good luck to you! Don't forget to focus on the saving/investing pieces - you obviously will do well on the income piece.

[A. Nony Mouse]

Not everyone has a passion, and that's fine.

Not everyone has a passion but it's still a question worth asking. WTF is your problem? Passion or not, work that genuinely motivates you to get up in the morning beats meaningless grind every time.

OP is a grown adult who’s intelligent and motivated enough to get into HYS. S/he would have figured out if s/he had a passion by now. And besides the fact that OP made it pretty clear s/he didn't have one, it's pretty useless and clichéd advice. Passion is not the same as meaningful work. (A good book on this topic is So Good They Can’t Ignore You by Cal Newport.)

I agree that passion isn't the same as meaningful work (and shouldn't be required), but OP doesn't seem to find anything about legal work even meaningful. (I don't think you can define meaningful solely by "makes me money.")

[in house lawyer]

Not everyone has a passion, and that's fine.

Not everyone has a passion but it's still a question worth asking. WTF is your problem? Passion or not, work that genuinely motivates you to get up in the morning beats meaningless grind every time.

OP is a grown adult who’s intelligent and motivated enough to get into HYS. S/he would have figured out if s/he had a passion by now. And besides the fact that OP made it pretty clear s/he didn't have one, it's pretty useless and clichéd advice. Passion is not the same as meaningful work. (A good book on this topic is So Good They Can’t Ignore You by Cal Newport.)

I agree that passion isn't the same as meaningful work (and shouldn't be required), but OP doesn't seem to find anything about legal work even meaningful. (I don't think you can define meaningful solely by "makes me money.")

I think you can find meaning in any job if you take pride in doing it well and use the money to pursue what's important to you (for example, securing your family's future). For the people who feel that way, why not pick the one that pays the most?

And OP is only planning to practice 10ish years. That's not an unreasonable amount of of time to do less than perfectly fulfilling work in order to reach financial independence.

[A. Nony Mouse]

No, there's nothing wrong with choosing the job that pays the most, but given how much people hate biglaw, I'm not convinced OP will last the 10 years (also not sure where you got the 10 years number?).

I actually also don't think a K-JD would have found a passion by now if they had one, but that's neither here nor there really.

[Mickfromgm]

If I were you, OP, I would go work for a brand name firm for exactly 2 years (pretty sure you'd hate it by then) and look for an in-house position. While non-GC positions won't let you retire before 40 or whatever, at least you would have a decent paying job that you wouldn't dread and is intellectually stimulating (at least to a person with a pedestrian mind, such as yours truly). And typically, your hours are very good and regular. You can go in house as a business lawyer, litigator, ERISA, tax, labor, so on. There is a reason why so many people covet in-house jobs after practicing for a few years in BigLaw. Good luck, dude - with your cred, you should be able to do whatever you want in life. . . . don't slap anyone or use racial epithets.

[Paul Campos]

Some questions nobody seems to be asking:

You want to support yourself and your family "comfortably" while retiring in your 30s. What does "comfortably" mean in terms of annual income? Even in as limited a universe as this board, people would give a gigantic range of answers to this question.

The rule of thumb is that to live off the income from your capital while not decreasing it in real inflation-adjusted terms, you shouldn't spend more than 4% of it per year. So if you "need" $100,000 per year to support you and your family comfortably, you have to accumulate $2.5 million in capital. I'm genuinely curious how anybody thinks an entry-level lawyer could reasonably expect to do this within ten years, more or less, of graduating.

How are you paying for law school? Full aid at HYS should still leave somebody with $150K or so of debt at graduation. How is that number, whatever it is, going to get paid off?

Are you planning to have a kid or kids? Because that changes all the numbers radically.

Also is your spouse getting a Ph.D. for funsies, or are they planning to have a career of some sort? That would seem very relevant to all these hypothetical calculations.

[Anonymous User]

I am a first year in biglaw following a clerkship. I litigate, and actually like quite a bit of the job (research and writing). That said, the hours and being on call are miserable, there is a lot of mind-numbingly boring work, I don't get to spend near enough time with my wife, and I think about quitting fairly often. Originally the plan was 5 years, and that number fluctuates by the week but has been steadily going down since I started. I would be psyched with 3 but probably am leaning more towards two. Oh, and I don't have kids. No clue how the people who do this with kids.

All that is to say, giving up 10 years of your life billing 2400+ hours for something you don't care about at all sounds completely miserable to me. Some people are certainly "grinders," and biglaw is full of them. But OP doesn't sound like a grinder. No shame in that, neither am I. But the real question is giving up 10 miserable years to retire earlier. That may be worth it to you, but I don't think you will really know for sure until you are actually practicing.

My advice: go work with a great firm in Boston to be close to your wife and keep your options open.

[Anonymous User]

OP here.

I was thinking a little less than the 2.5mil number you threw out, but that is partially because of my answer to the fourth question.

I won't have any debt at graduation from LS, I am on full aid, paying off a lot from summer income, and have other sources.

I do plan on having kids.

Spouse is very much the opposite of me in career aspect. They actually do have a passion for something and are driven to pursue a career. So my 10 year timeline is a little more reasonable because savings will be supplemented by spouse's income and don't need to save as much because household will have some continuing employment income.