Why does Cravath take so many summers? Forum

[proleteriate]

I don't understand, how/why do Cravath take 100 summers for a single office with less than 500 attys? Are there ~100 associates leaving every year? I understand some of these summers will go clerk for SCOTUS or something, but I'd imagine the majority of them will return right?

[FascinatedWanderer]

Are you familiar with the concept of "attrition"?

[proleteriate]

Are you familiar with the concept of "attrition"?

yes, can u elaborate?

[Lincoln]

First, a number of people don't return after graduation. In litigation (which I'm more familiar with), many will go on to clerk and then directly to Big Fed or litigation boutiques.

Second, the attrition rate is high. One main reason people go to Cravath (and its peers with similarly large summer class sizes) is for the exit options. By year 4-5, a majority will have gone in-house, to business roles or to government.

[star fox]

They don't hire laterals, so they're intentionally hiring a lot of people based on knowing a lot will leave.

[Anonymous User]

Their vault profile indicates that 100/100 summers got offers in 2015. But does anyone else suspect they lay off some juniors? I have reason to think a jr associate I knew there was laid off but I'm not sure.

[trebekismyhero]

Their vault profile indicates that 100/100 summers got offers in 2015. But does anyone else suspect they lay off some juniors? I have reason to think a jr associate I knew there was laid off but I'm not sure.

I am sure they lay off juniors that aren't making their hours or at least they're given a push. Every firm does

[Npret]

It's called the Cravath model for a reason: particularly the up or out part of the system and the pyramid model. The firm has had this model since the 1880s.

Meaning they hire a large number of 1st years and people who don't cut it leave voluntarily or with a push.

[jbagelboy]

Very few if any cravath summers will clerk for SCOTUS

It's a great firm, but I am not sure why Cravath is so mythologized and idealized among law students. It's no different than other premier wall street firms in new york

[TLSModBot]

Of the 100 summers at Cravath:
40 will make the cut and enter the hiring class
10-15 will make the cut and clerk, delaying entry a year or two
5 will make the cut, peer into the yawning void that is like as a BigLaw associate at a V5 firm, and either go mad or escape with whatever wet sad shards of sanity they still possess
10 will leave in disgrace from the program early, often in the cover of night so that they get a head start on the search patrols and hounds

As for the remainder, where do you think Cravath's famous zesty summer sausage links(tm) come from?

[Npret]

Very few if any cravath summers will clerk for SCOTUS

It's a great firm, but I am not sure why Cravath is so mythologized and idealized among law students. It's no different than other premier wall street firms in new york

Maybe because it's the only firm they've heard of?

[Anonymous User]

Their vault profile indicates that 100/100 summers got offers in 2015. But does anyone else suspect they lay off some juniors? I have reason to think a jr associate I knew there was laid off but I'm not sure.

I am sure they lay off juniors that aren't making their hours or at least they're given a push. Every firm does

How does that work with the no billable hours requirement and their assignment system, which isn't free market?

[LaLiLuLeLo]

Their vault profile indicates that 100/100 summers got offers in 2015. But does anyone else suspect they lay off some juniors? I have reason to think a jr associate I knew there was laid off but I'm not sure.

I am sure they lay off juniors that aren't making their hours or at least they're given a push. Every firm does

How does that work with the no billable hours requirement and their assignment system, which isn't free market?

No billable hours requirement doesn't preclude getting fired for low hours.

[lawlorbust]

Their vault profile indicates that 100/100 summers got offers in 2015. But does anyone else suspect they lay off some juniors? I have reason to think a jr associate I knew there was laid off but I'm not sure.

I am sure they lay off juniors that aren't making their hours or at least they're given a push. Every firm does

How does that work with the no billable hours requirement and their assignment system, which isn't free market?

lol at cravath and no billables requirement

[Mullens]

Their vault profile indicates that 100/100 summers got offers in 2015. But does anyone else suspect they lay off some juniors? I have reason to think a jr associate I knew there was laid off but I'm not sure.

I am sure they lay off juniors that aren't making their hours or at least they're given a push. Every firm does

How does that work with the no billable hours requirement and their assignment system, which isn't free market?

They might not have a billable hours requirement but they expect their associates to finish all their work for the day before they leave for the night. On my CB some juniors told me liked the finance group at Cravath because they could routinely leave at midnight.

[rpupkin]

No billable hours requirement doesn't preclude getting fired for low hours.

Correct. A firm with a "no billable hours requirement" is more likely to have associates who work inhumane hours.

[Anonymous User]

For what it's worth, I have buddies who billed around 1700-1800 hrs at Simpson Thatcher and Cravath their first years and still got full bonuses....so there definitely are perks to the "no billables requirement".

[Anonymous User]

Their vault profile indicates that 100/100 summers got offers in 2015. But does anyone else suspect they lay off some juniors? I have reason to think a jr associate I knew there was laid off but I'm not sure.

I am sure they lay off juniors that aren't making their hours or at least they're given a push. Every firm does

How does that work with the no billable hours requirement and their assignment system, which isn't free market?

No billable hours requirement doesn't preclude getting fired for low hours.

True, but that's not really how it works at Cravath. You have no control over your hours because you are assigned to one partner (or a group, if in corporate), so "bad" associates can have high hours if the partner is busy, and highly regarded associates can have low hours if their partner is slow. That being said, if you have lower hours than the rest of your group or low hours when your partner thinks you should be busy, it won't reflect well on you.

More commonly, though, it's a decision by the partners that your work product and management skills take you out of consideration for partner. That results in a nudge out the door on a 3-9 month time horizon.

[Anonymous User]

Their vault profile indicates that 100/100 summers got offers in 2015. But does anyone else suspect they lay off some juniors? I have reason to think a jr associate I knew there was laid off but I'm not sure.

I am sure they lay off juniors that aren't making their hours or at least they're given a push. Every firm does

How does that work with the no billable hours requirement and their assignment system, which isn't free market?

No billable hours requirement doesn't preclude getting fired for low hours.

True, but that's not really how it works at Cravath. You have no control over your hours because you are assigned to one partner (or a group, if in corporate), so "bad" associates can have high hours if the partner is busy, and highly regarded associates can have low hours if their partner is slow. That being said, if you have lower hours than the rest of your group or low hours when your partner thinks you should be busy, it won't reflect well on you.

More commonly, though, it's a decision by the partners that your work product and management skills take you out of consideration for partner. That results in a nudge out the door on a 3-9 month time horizon.

This person gets it. If you stop getting work and your group is busy, time to start looking for another job. But if they cut associates for low hours, then half of the corporate associates would be out of a job today.

[dabigchina]

Very few if any cravath summers will clerk for SCOTUS

It's a great firm, but I am not sure why Cravath is so mythologized and idealized among law students. It's no different than other premier wall street firms in new york

Because V1 prestige.

On a more serious note, it's not just the students. I have noticed professors and administrators using Cravath as a byword for "reputable Wall Street law firm".

[LaLiLuLeLo]

Their vault profile indicates that 100/100 summers got offers in 2015. But does anyone else suspect they lay off some juniors? I have reason to think a jr associate I knew there was laid off but I'm not sure.

I am sure they lay off juniors that aren't making their hours or at least they're given a push. Every firm does

How does that work with the no billable hours requirement and their assignment system, which isn't free market?

No billable hours requirement doesn't preclude getting fired for low hours.

True, but that's not really how it works at Cravath. You have no control over your hours because you are assigned to one partner (or a group, if in corporate), so "bad" associates can have high hours if the partner is busy, and highly regarded associates can have low hours if their partner is slow. That being said, if you have lower hours than the rest of your group or low hours when your partner thinks you should be busy, it won't reflect well on you.

More commonly, though, it's a decision by the partners that your work product and management skills take you out of consideration for partner. That results in a nudge out the door on a 3-9 month time horizon.

This person gets it. If you stop getting work and your group is busy, time to start looking for another job. But if they cut associates for low hours, then half of the corporate associates would be out of a job today.

That's true for any firm, really. I'm at a firm with no billable requirement and it's exactly the same. Everyone gets a bonus no matter what, but that doesn't mean you can't be fired through no fault of your own other than just having low hours. Maybe you didn't get staffed on one of the big deals, maybe deal flow is a little down (it has been this year), but if your hours are lower than your peers you can still be fired without being thought of as a shitty associate.

[Anonymous User]

That's true for any firm, really. I'm at a firm with no billable requirement and it's exactly the same. Everyone gets a bonus no matter what, but that doesn't mean you can't be fired through no fault of your own other than just having low hours. Maybe you didn't get staffed on one of the big deals, maybe deal flow is a little down (it has been this year), but if your hours are lower than your peers you can still be fired without being thought of as a shitty associate.

Earlier anon who said "that's not really how it works" here.

The point I was trying to make is that the bolded doesn't really happen at Cravath. If your hours are low but it's not your fault and people think you're good, you won't be fired. If your hours are low because the partners or senior associates aren't giving you work, that's just a reflection of your being regarded as not good enough to be trusted, and the latter is why you are getting the boot.

[PeanutsNJam]

Very few if any cravath summers will clerk for SCOTUS

It's a great firm, but I am not sure why Cravath is so mythologized and idealized among law students. It's no different than other premier wall street firms in new york

Because V1 prestige.

On a more serious note, it's not just the students. I have noticed professors and administrators using Cravath as a byword for "reputable Wall Street law firm".

Cravat IS a reputable Wall Street law firm, but that doesn't mean its summers are law school savants with feeder clerkships lined up.

[Anonymous User]

Very few if any cravath summers will clerk for SCOTUS

It's a great firm, but I am not sure why Cravath is so mythologized and idealized among law students. It's no different than other premier wall street firms in new york

Few people will clerk for SCOTUS at all, especially summers from any equivalent big shop in NYC generally.

To throw out a few reasons Cravath is idealized - comparatively small shop (~200 corporate lawyers total); therefore lean staffing; "top deals" in all practices; market leader on comp; no laterals; uniqueness in rotations/system; many of the foregoing has been the case for many years leads to developing that heir of prestige

Personally, I think the other top firms in NYC/otherwise are equally "good" for training, attorney exits, work quality, etc., but I do understand why Cravath stands out in terms of prestige amongst peers

[Npret]

Very few if any cravath summers will clerk for SCOTUS

It's a great firm, but I am not sure why Cravath is so mythologized and idealized among law students. It's no different than other premier wall street firms in new york

Few people will clerk for SCOTUS at all, especially summers from any equivalent big shop in NYC generally.

To throw out a few reasons Cravath is idealized - comparatively small shop (~200 corporate lawyers total); therefore lean staffing; "top deals" in all practices; market leader on comp; no laterals; uniqueness in rotations/system; many of the foregoing has been the case for many years leads to developing that heir of prestige

Personally, I think the other top firms in NYC/otherwise are equally "good" for training, attorney exits, work quality, etc., but I do understand why Cravath stands out in terms of prestige amongst peers

To 0Ls and law students maybe.