DOJ Criminal Forum

[Anonymous User]

I did not get into the US DOJ Criminal section. I was wondering, do people lateral into the US DOJ Criminal section? If so, what qualifications do they typically have? Former AUSAs? DAs? Big firms?

[Anonymous User]

Current CRM attorney here:

Yes there are a lot of laterals into CRM. Most of the ranks are not filled by honors attorneys, but laterals from different areas of law.

The type of lateral will depend upon the section.

For litigating components like APP, CCIPS and Fraud- most of the laterals are former biglaw with excellent credentials and 5-6 years experience.FYI CCIPS is mostly computer and IP crime.

For litigating components that are not as writing intensive or white collar focused-CCS, CEOS, NDDS, OCGS and PIN- most of the laterals are former AUSAs from around the country (including the big prestigious districts) looking to specialize (and for a pay bump). Some sections do hire former ADA's however, it is very rare and often will require some type of specialized experience or demonstrated trial ability.

For the non-litigating components-MLARS, OEO, OIA, OPL- these are a mix of usually former biglaw and AUSAs, but I have also seen a few midlaw ppl in the less desirable components- (MLARS/OIA).

[Anonymous User]

Current CRM attorney here:

Yes there are a lot of laterals into CRM. Most of the ranks are not filled by honors attorneys, but laterals from different areas of law.

The type of lateral will depend upon the section.

For litigating components like APP, CCIPS and Fraud- most of the laterals are former biglaw with excellent credentials and 5-6 years experience.FYI CCIPS is mostly computer and IP crime.

For litigating components that are not as writing intensive or white collar focused-CCS, CEOS, NDDS, OCGS and PIN- most of the laterals are former AUSAs from around the country (including the big prestigious districts) looking to specialize (and for a pay bump). Some sections do hire former ADA's however, it is very rare and often will require some type of specialized experience or demonstrated trial ability.

For the non-litigating components-MLARS, OEO, OIA, OPL- these are a mix of usually former biglaw and AUSAs, but I have also seen a few midlaw ppl in the less desirable components- (MLARS/OIA).

Also a current CRM attorney, and I think this is all accurate. I would only add the clarification that there are ex-biglaw folks in the less white collar focused litigating components. (I could name at least one in each of those sections, I think, maybe with the exception of NDDS which I just don't know as well.) So don't think that it's absolute, but in general the previous poster is right that those sections have a less common biglaw-to-CRM path.

I also don't think MLARS is that undesirable (although it's not where I am), but I think it depends a lot on the unit.

Also, OP, just a point of terminology, it's the Criminal Division. Then each of the components are either "sections" or "offices" within the division.

[Anonymous User]

Thank you all very very much. Obviously, I do not know anything about DOJ Criminal Section. My plan right now is to join the DAs Office (in a major city). And then join the USAO (major district). Hopefully that would be sufficient.

[Anonymous User]

Thank you all very very much. Obviously, I do not know anything about DOJ Criminal Section. My plan right now is to join the DAs Office (in a major city). And then join the USAO (major district). Hopefully that would be sufficient.

First CRM Attorney here again-

Congratulations on wanting to become a prosecutor. It is perhaps the most fulfilling legal job one can attain.
However, please note that the transition from DA to USAO is not an easy one for DAs, especially in large cities. The reason is that these districts (SDNY, EDNY, SDCA, SDFL, NDILetc.) usually prefer the writing pedigree from a biglaw litigator. It is very, very difficult for someone from the DAs office to transition to a large, popular USAO unless the ADA has had the ability to gather extensive writing experience (appeals etc).

However I have seen ADAs join USAOS in "flyover" districts, where the emphasis is more on trial ability and dedication to public service. However these individuals still had a connection to this flyover district that made them stand out from the hordes of other applicants from within the area. (Grew up/worked in flyover district etc)

[Anonymous User]

Thank you all very very much. Obviously, I do not know anything about DOJ Criminal Section. My plan right now is to join the DAs Office (in a major city). And then join the USAO (major district). Hopefully that would be sufficient.

First CRM Attorney here again-

Congratulations on wanting to become a prosecutor. It is perhaps the most fulfilling legal job one can attain.
However, please note that the transition from DA to USAO is not an easy one for DAs, especially in large cities. The reason is that these districts (SDNY, EDNY, SDCA, SDFL, NDILetc.) usually prefer the writing pedigree from a biglaw litigator. It is very, very difficult for someone from the DAs office to transition to a large, popular USAO unless the ADA has had the ability to gather extensive writing experience (appeals etc).

However I have seen ADAs join USAOS in "flyover" districts, where the emphasis is more on trial ability and dedication to public service. However these individuals still had a connection to this flyover district that made them stand out from the hordes of other applicants from within the area. (Grew up/worked in flyover district etc)

Flyover AUSA here - this is absolutely correct, in my experience. My district hires a lot of former ADAs/criminal state AG people. It's a small bar so reputation within the legal community becomes very important; I think most (though not all) people who get hired have known people already in the office.

I do know some flyover AUSAs who've been able to transfer to less flyover-y districts (one went to NDCA, but to be fair, he did biglaw before the flyover district).

[Anonymous User]

Current CRM attorney here:

Yes there are a lot of laterals into CRM. Most of the ranks are not filled by honors attorneys, but laterals from different areas of law.

The type of lateral will depend upon the section.

For litigating components like APP, CCIPS and Fraud- most of the laterals are former biglaw with excellent credentials and 5-6 years experience.FYI CCIPS is mostly computer and IP crime.

For litigating components that are not as writing intensive or white collar focused-CCS, CEOS, NDDS, OCGS and PIN- most of the laterals are former AUSAs from around the country (including the big prestigious districts) looking to specialize (and for a pay bump). Some sections do hire former ADA's however, it is very rare and often will require some type of specialized experience or demonstrated trial ability.

For the non-litigating components-MLARS, OEO, OIA, OPL- these are a mix of usually former biglaw and AUSAs, but I have also seen a few midlaw ppl in the less desirable components- (MLARS/OIA).

Any insight into whether laterals from a fed. clerkship also make this leap (assuming some mid-law experience etc. after law school)? Do you know if the Civil Division reflect the same hiring outlook in terms of background?

[Anonymous User]

OP here. I know that major districts hire exclusively from biglaw and clerkships. I have externed at the USAO in my district for a while and almost all the hires are from BigLaw. However, recently they have been hiring DAs because of the hiring committee and the need for experienced trial attorneys. My statement about the DA to USAO transition was a more hopeful statement than a realistic statement. In other words, I am hoping I will be the exception. I fully know that is not realistic. I do not mind being a DA for the rest of my life which is why I do not mind joining the DAs Office.

[Anonymous User]

Current CRM attorney here:

Yes there are a lot of laterals into CRM. Most of the ranks are not filled by honors attorneys, but laterals from different areas of law.

The type of lateral will depend upon the section.

For litigating components like APP, CCIPS and Fraud- most of the laterals are former biglaw with excellent credentials and 5-6 years experience.FYI CCIPS is mostly computer and IP crime.

For litigating components that are not as writing intensive or white collar focused-CCS, CEOS, NDDS, OCGS and PIN- most of the laterals are former AUSAs from around the country (including the big prestigious districts) looking to specialize (and for a pay bump). Some sections do hire former ADA's however, it is very rare and often will require some type of specialized experience or demonstrated trial ability.

For the non-litigating components-MLARS, OEO, OIA, OPL- these are a mix of usually former biglaw and AUSAs, but I have also seen a few midlaw ppl in the less desirable components- (MLARS/OIA).

Since you seem to be pretty knowledgeable, and I've asked elsewhere, any idea how Schedule A hiring would be for CRM? I would be coming from double clerkships and have what is apparently considered a Schedule A disability for noncompetitive hiring. Is this a preferred route?

[Anonymous User]

Current CRM attorney here:

Yes there are a lot of laterals into CRM. Most of the ranks are not filled by honors attorneys, but laterals from different areas of law.

The type of lateral will depend upon the section.

For litigating components like APP, CCIPS and Fraud- most of the laterals are former biglaw with excellent credentials and 5-6 years experience.FYI CCIPS is mostly computer and IP crime.

For litigating components that are not as writing intensive or white collar focused-CCS, CEOS, NDDS, OCGS and PIN- most of the laterals are former AUSAs from around the country (including the big prestigious districts) looking to specialize (and for a pay bump). Some sections do hire former ADA's however, it is very rare and often will require some type of specialized experience or demonstrated trial ability.

For the non-litigating components-MLARS, OEO, OIA, OPL- these are a mix of usually former biglaw and AUSAs, but I have also seen a few midlaw ppl in the less desirable components- (MLARS/OIA).

Any insight into whether laterals from a fed. clerkship also make this leap (assuming some mid-law experience etc. after law school)? Do you know if the Civil Division reflect the same hiring outlook in terms of background?

Crm Attorney here:
As for Midlaw to Clerkship- I honestly do not have any guidance for you. It seems that most laterals come from working either within Government or a firm. From what I have seen, the only people coming from clerkships are recent graduates and then they go through honors (making them competitive because of the clerkship).

I am not familiar with the civil division hiring, however from what people have been talking about DOJ is that they are going to cut down on staffing in CIV. There are currently about 1040 attorneys in CIV.

[Anonymous User]

Current CRM attorney here:

Yes there are a lot of laterals into CRM. Most of the ranks are not filled by honors attorneys, but laterals from different areas of law.

The type of lateral will depend upon the section.

For litigating components like APP, CCIPS and Fraud- most of the laterals are former biglaw with excellent credentials and 5-6 years experience.FYI CCIPS is mostly computer and IP crime.

For litigating components that are not as writing intensive or white collar focused-CCS, CEOS, NDDS, OCGS and PIN- most of the laterals are former AUSAs from around the country (including the big prestigious districts) looking to specialize (and for a pay bump). Some sections do hire former ADA's however, it is very rare and often will require some type of specialized experience or demonstrated trial ability.

For the non-litigating components-MLARS, OEO, OIA, OPL- these are a mix of usually former biglaw and AUSAs, but I have also seen a few midlaw ppl in the less desirable components- (MLARS/OIA).

Since you seem to be pretty knowledgeable, and I've asked elsewhere, any idea how Schedule A hiring would be for CRM? I would be coming from double clerkships and have what is apparently considered a Schedule A disability for noncompetitive hiring. Is this a preferred route?

Double clerkships would be helpful but I am not in hiring and don't know how a Schedule A disability is factored into hiring decisions. I do know that sections are required to interview at least one individual per vacant position under the Schedule A noncompetitive hire authority for persons with disabilities, unless all applicants with a disability were deemed ineligible by HR.

[Anonymous User]

Very helpful to at least know that, thank you. Any idea if this is "main justice" specific, or AUSA positions are subject to the same rule?

[Anonymous User]

Very helpful to at least know that, thank you. Any idea if this is "main justice" specific, or AUSA positions are subject to the same rule?

Not 100% sure however I believe that AUSA hiring is subject to the same policies and regulations as Main Justice hiring, even though they are on different pay scales.

[Anonymous User]

It is very, very difficult for someone from the DAs office to transition to a large, popular USAO unless the ADA has had the ability to gather extensive writing experience (appeals etc).

Different anon here.

Current Rookie Appellate ADA in one of the large offices. I already know I don't have a chance in hell in becoming an AUSA in my current jx (no clerkships, shit school, etc.).

But for the other jx's, do you think it would it ever be worthwhile to gain experience in an investigation or narcotics bureau, where I imagine the work would be more similar?

What, if anything, could I do now to boost my chances of lateraling over to AUSA (anywhere) in 5-10 years?

[Anonymous User]

It is very, very difficult for someone from the DAs office to transition to a large, popular USAO unless the ADA has had the ability to gather extensive writing experience (appeals etc).

Different anon here.

Current Rookie Appellate ADA in one of the large offices. I already know I don't have a chance in hell in becoming an AUSA in my current jx (no clerkships, shit school, etc.).

But for the other jx's, do you think it would it ever be worthwhile to gain experience in an investigation or narcotics bureau, where I imagine the work would be more similar?

What, if anything, could I do now to boost my chances of lateraling over to AUSA (anywhere) in 5-10 years?

Depends on the jurisdiction you want to lateral to:
If it is a large, prestigious jurisdiction (EDNY, SDNY, NDIL, SDFL, SDCA, CDCA, Main) with your appellate experience I would try to swing a Fed Clerkship with a judge who has ties to that office.

If its a smaller office in a less popular district, the questions are:
1. Do you have ties to that District?
2. Can you see yourself living in that District?

If the answer to both of those questions are yes, then yes work in an investigations bureau could look good on your resume. However, from my experience, ADAs in investigation bureaus rarely go to trial. It may be better for your to do a few years in appellate then transition to a trial bureau trying complex felonies, because honestly if your a former ADA with no trials, you have taken away one of the best selling points of your experience.

[Anonymous User]

Going into a civil DOJ litigating component this fall. I've always liked crim work, so I'd be interested in transferring to CRM down the line. Do the CRM attorneys in this topic (or others reading this) ever see laterals into CRM from civil sections of DOJ?

[govlawyer123]

I'd say it depends. I really think it depends on timing but obviously having a proven commitment to public service will assist favorably. I'm a former ADA from a major city and after 4.5 years applied randomly to CDCA and got the job offer which I ultimately had to decline. I then moved to the state AG's office and applied to the SDCA and got that offer as well. I was middle of the pack in law school, no LR or journal, so its possible.