Calling all immigration lawyers - What is up with TN? Forum

[Anonymous User]

I am a Canadian currently in my 1L year at an American Law School. I've been fortunate enough to receive my entire post-high school education in the United States and during this time the mantra was always Canadians are eligible for TN visas (if one qualifies for one of the specific professions such as Lawyer) to work for at least 3 years after graduation. In fact, that played a yuge role in me deciding to attend law school in the United States because the degree doesn't transfer that well back to Canada without some legal experience.

Then this happens:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/windsor/c ... -1.4026554
http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2017/0 ... build.html

Now the President hasn't publicly declared anything regarding these visas other than stating he wants to renegotiate NAFTA (where the TN comes from). There are also rumblings of border guards threatening to take away TN visas from Canadians reentering the country.

Is this just an emboldened border patrol? Is there actually any policy behind this stepped up attack on TN status? In short, what the f*ck is going on?!? Are lawyers going to receive the same "policy changes" that nurses are or would taking on the legal profession prove to be foolhardy?

I'm Big Law eligible (meaning Grades/School at least give me a decent shot). I know for the summer that I can just qualify under CPT but what do I say now when a firm asks if they have to sponsor me for full time employment? Under TN all I needed was an offer letter, under H1-B I'd also need 3-4k dollars worth of compliance paid for by them and would also have to enter a lottery system that is bound to shrink under this administration.

[Auxilio]

This is absolutely terrifying.

[Npret]

I don't know if TN is an issue yet.. But even if it is, what will you do? What are your options if it changes?

[Calka]

Chill... you have two more years of school and an additional year of OPT - all of which fall under F1 that you are currently under.

[Anonymous User]

First, OPT is an extremely inefficient system that takes approximately 6 months to even receive approval just to work for ~11 months because the inefficiency of setting dates knocks off about a month more often than not. (Done this before)
Second, employers don't like to hire someone if the expectation is that they can only work for them ~11 months.
Third, if it's starting to become a problem now what does this mean 2 years down the road. From personal experience potential employers don't like "maybe" when you are talking about work status. They want to know with certainty that you are on top of this and that they don't have to worry about potentially having you stopped at the border because it's just as easy not to hire a Canadian that's top of his class and hire the runner up if it's going to create problems..
Fourth, I'm not the only Canadian out there and I know at least a dozen people that could be affected by this right now. There are 30-40k Canadians that rely on TN visas..Not to mention in the aforementioned article that there is a nursing shortage in the United States so in certain fields its a two way street. There are plenty of Americans in Canada on the TN status as well that I'm sure would like some certainty in their future.

The available options out there are: if you like then you should put a ring on it (work status within 90 days, green card within 6 months), H1B (JD's would get 2 rounds at the lottery but considering that the lottery is oversubscribed by 300% and they just suspended expedited applications so this could be a several year process which certain firms are not going to care to gamble on); work for the law firm in one of their foreign offices for a year then come in on an L-1 (yeah right..because like I said those JD's are so easily transferable... even if I went home straight after graduation I'd have to take another year of school to practice in Canada (and the degree you get in Canada is a JD!) not to mention that Canada has a 1 year articling requirement).

[Npret]

First, OPT is an extremely inefficient system that takes approximately 6 months to even receive approval just to work for ~11 months because the inefficiency of setting dates knocks off about a month more often than not. (Done this before)
Second, employers don't like to hire someone if the expectation is that they can only work for them ~11 months.
Third, if it's starting to become a problem now what does this mean 2 years down the road. From personal experience potential employers don't like "maybe" when you are talking about work status. They want to know with certainty that you are on top of this and that they don't have to worry about potentially having you stopped at the border because it's just as easy not to hire a Canadian that's top of his class and hire the runner up if it's going to create problems..
Fourth, I'm not the only Canadian out there and I know at least a dozen people that could be affected by this right now. There are 30-40k Canadians that rely on TN visas..Not to mention in the aforementioned article that there is a nursing shortage in the United States so in certain fields its a two way street. There are plenty of Americans in Canada on the TN status as well that I'm sure would like some certainty in their future.

The available options out there are: if you like then you should put a ring on it (work status within 90 days, green card within 6 months), H1B (JD's would get 2 rounds at the lottery but considering that the lottery is oversubscribed by 300% and they just suspended expedited applications so this could be a several year process which certain firms are not going to care to gamble on); work for the law firm in one of their foreign offices for a year then come in on an L-1 (yeah right..because like I said those JD's are so easily transferable... even if I went home straight after graduation I'd have to take another year of school to practice in Canada (and the degree you get in Canada is a JD!) not to mention that Canada has a 1 year articling requirement).

People seem to hate it when I tell international students they should marry a US citizen, but it's your best bet right now if TN disappears. I think it's your best bet anyway, but for some reason people hate hearing that option.

I don't know a single law firm that guarantees a job if you lose the H1B lottery, and why would they, making sure you have work authorization is on the student/lawyer. The H1B freeze is for 6 months on expedited visas but a report just came out questioning the fairness of H1B process.

I haven't heard anything about TN changing just H1B, but as it also works for Mexico, there may be pressure to change it. I haven't heard about any TN visas being confiscated, unless maybe people are going back and forth too frequently? I'm not an expert on this by any means. If you are worried talk to an expert about likely changes to TN and don't rely on rumors.

When I asked what your options are, I meant you personally, what would you do. So I'm asking again, assume the worst that you can't get the TN visa, what's your plan?

[MangoPapi]

As a fellow 0L I've been following the news regarding immigration and NAFTA because I too plan on attending a US law school as opposed to a Canadian one. Though Trump said he would like to renegotiate NAFTA, the meeting between him and Trudeau was actually a positive one with a semi-agreement to involve a lot of cross border infrastructure projects. Now I know this doesn't directly answer your questions and doubts but I don't believe there is any issue regarding TN visas. Trump would like to renegotiate NAFTA to make policies a bit more stricter for Mexico while loosening restrictions for Canada i.e Cross border infrastructure projects. As for the border patrol, majority of those issues came due to a person's ethnicity and background as a result of Trump's travel ban. Now this is all anecdotal and this is coming from a 0L so take all this with a grain of salt.

If you don't mind OP, can you PM me? I'd like to know how your experience has been being Canadian while attending an American law school.

[rk42]

Apparently the CBP denied that there have been any changes to the TN visa. So you should be fine for now at least. I guess it could change in the future based on how NAFTA talks go but I think the Canadian TN visa would probably remain the same.

ALso, do lawyers qualify for the EB-2 advanced degree visa?

[Anonymous User]

When I asked what your options are, I meant you personally, what would you do. So I'm asking again, assume the worst that you can't get the TN visa, what's your plan?

My plan if the TN fails is probably ride OPT until I can afford a ring. I wanted to get married a long time ago anyway regardless of where I end up living but substantial debt/no income is not the foot I would want to start on and 2 years is a long time for me to mess things up anyway. If things went south in that arena I might try the H1B (one proposed bill would it make it more favorable to people getting an education in the U.S.) but it is such a horrible system (convince a firm to spend 4k on your compliance just so you might have a 1/3-1/2 chance of getting it v. hire a guy whose GPA is a bit lower). I have good work experience and prior degrees but if I was an employer that's still a tough pill to swallow for a person straight out of law school. But this isn't just about me either. The "rumors" I hear aren't rumors.. its anecdotal stories from people I know.

As for CBP not changing their policy.. hence "policy change" not policy change.. For decades they have been totally fine letting in these nurses (there are over 1600 RNs working in Michigan) but all of a sudden one guy at the border decided to go to a dictionary and determined that certain nurse practitioners (who I might add are RNs) are not the defined RNs eligible by the TN category.. give me a break. Thankfully the category for lawyers is literally just "lawyer" and if you have a JD and are working for a big law firm it'd be hard to say you are not a lawyer... except if.."associate" does not fall into the defined "lawyer" category even though "associates" do lawyer stuff and are called lawyers and have a JD but that's not the job title..what about "attorney" does that fall into the "lawyer" category?!?!

[Anonymous User]

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[Anonymous User]

Apparently the CBP denied that there have been any changes to the TN visa. So you should be fine for now at least. I guess it could change in the future based on how NAFTA talks go but I think the Canadian TN visa would probably remain the same.

ALso, do lawyers qualify for the EB-2 advanced degree visa?

Requires 5 years work experience in your field under the advanced degree category

[Anonymous User]

Apparently the CBP denied that there have been any changes to the TN visa. So you should be fine for now at least. I guess it could change in the future based on how NAFTA talks go but I think the Canadian TN visa would probably remain the same.

ALso, do lawyers qualify for the EB-2 advanced degree visa?

Requires 5 years work experience in your field under the advanced degree category

No, the 5 years is only if you have a BA and then the 5 years experience substitutes for the advanced degree.

[Anonymous User]

Apparently the CBP denied that there have been any changes to the TN visa. So you should be fine for now at least. I guess it could change in the future based on how NAFTA talks go but I think the Canadian TN visa would probably remain the same.

ALso, do lawyers qualify for the EB-2 advanced degree visa?

Requires 5 years work experience in your field under the advanced degree category

No, the 5 years is only if you have a BA and then the 5 years experience substitutes for the advanced degree.

Either way that is an application for permanent work status and is not really the first step unless you are an absolutely exceptional individual who mastered the Rule Against Perpetuities when you were in the 5th grade and are on the cover of "Genius".

[Anonymous User]

Apparently the CBP denied that there have been any changes to the TN visa. So you should be fine for now at least. I guess it could change in the future based on how NAFTA talks go but I think the Canadian TN visa would probably remain the same.

ALso, do lawyers qualify for the EB-2 advanced degree visa?

Requires 5 years work experience in your field under the advanced degree category

No, the 5 years is only if you have a BA and then the 5 years experience substitutes for the advanced degree.

Either way that is an application for permanent work status and is not really the first step unless you are an absolutely exceptional individual who mastered the Rule Against Perpetuities when you were in the 5th grade and are on the cover of "Genius".

I might add that if anyone has some concrete rebuttals to anything I'm saying please join in.. the purpose of the post was to hear if anyone out there has some expert advice on this stuff that can't be found on various government websites not to vent my own fears.

[ClubberLang]

Thankfully the category for lawyers is literally just "lawyer" and if you have a JD and are working for a big law firm it'd be hard to say you are not a lawyer... except if.."associate" does not fall into the defined "lawyer" category even though "associates" do lawyer stuff and are called lawyers and have a JD but that's not the job title..what about "attorney" does that fall into the "lawyer" category?!?!

You can't call yourself a lawyer until you are admitted, and your start date (if biglaw) will predate your admission, so I wouldn't count on TN to get you authorization to start out as a law clerk. No idea if border agents make this distinction though... I think the way to do it is OPT then TN after admission.

You mentioned marriage as a backup plan. If you've got someone willing to marry you, it should be your primary plan. Presently, Canadians seem to figure out work authorization without major problems, but you don't want your life to hang in the balance of some agent. With the current political climate I'd be more than a little worried that someone looks at the TN program and realizes that with swaths of unemployed American attorneys, it doesn't make sense to let Canadians come in and do the work.

[Anonymous User]

Thankfully the category for lawyers is literally just "lawyer" and if you have a JD and are working for a big law firm it'd be hard to say you are not a lawyer... except if.."associate" does not fall into the defined "lawyer" category even though "associates" do lawyer stuff and are called lawyers and have a JD but that's not the job title..what about "attorney" does that fall into the "lawyer" category?!?!

You can't call yourself a lawyer until you are admitted, and your start date (if biglaw) will predate your admission, so I wouldn't count on TN to get you authorization to start out as a law clerk. No idea if border agents make this distinction though... I think the way to do it is OPT then TN after admission.

You mentioned marriage as a backup plan. If you've got someone willing to marry you, it should be your primary plan. Presently, Canadians seem to figure out work authorization without major problems, but you don't want your life to hang in the balance of some agent. With the current political climate I'd be more than a little worried that someone looks at the TN program and realizes that with swaths of unemployed American attorneys, it doesn't make sense to let Canadians come in and do the work.

I was being facetious.. you don't need to have passed the bar:
-- Lawyer (including Notary in the province of Quebec)-L.L.B., J.D., L.L.L., B.C.L., or Licenciatura degree (five years); or membership in a state/provincial bar.

[Npret]

When I asked what your options are, I meant you personally, what would you do. So I'm asking again, assume the worst that you can't get the TN visa, what's your plan?

My plan if the TN fails is probably ride OPT until I can afford a ring. I wanted to get married a long time ago anyway regardless of where I end up living but substantial debt/no income is not the foot I would want to start on and 2 years is a long time for me to mess things up anyway. If things went south in that arena I might try the H1B (one proposed bill would it make it more favorable to people getting an education in the U.S.) but it is such a horrible system (convince a firm to spend 4k on your compliance just so you might have a 1/3-1/2 chance of getting it v. hire a guy whose GPA is a bit lower). I have good work experience and prior degrees but if I was an employer that's still a tough pill to swallow for a person straight out of law school. But this isn't just about me either. The "rumors" I hear aren't rumors.. its anecdotal stories from people I know.

As for CBP not changing their policy.. hence "policy change" not policy change.. For decades they have been totally fine letting in these nurses (there are over 1600 RNs working in Michigan) but all of a sudden one guy at the border decided to go to a dictionary and determined that certain nurse practitioners (who I might add are RNs) are not the defined RNs eligible by the TN category.. give me a break. Thankfully the category for lawyers is literally just "lawyer" and if you have a JD and are working for a big law firm it'd be hard to say you are not a lawyer... except if.."associate" does not fall into the defined "lawyer" category even though "associates" do lawyer stuff and are called lawyers and have a JD but that's not the job title..what about "attorney" does that fall into the "lawyer" category?!?!

If you don't win the H1B lottery, USCIS returns the checks or at least doesn't cash them.

If you want to get married, why wait? Maybe I missed your point on that. It's your best option and who knows maybe that will change too.

[Calka]

Thankfully the category for lawyers is literally just "lawyer" and if you have a JD and are working for a big law firm it'd be hard to say you are not a lawyer... except if.."associate" does not fall into the defined "lawyer" category even though "associates" do lawyer stuff and are called lawyers and have a JD but that's not the job title..what about "attorney" does that fall into the "lawyer" category?!?!

You can't call yourself a lawyer until you are admitted, and your start date (if biglaw) will predate your admission, so I wouldn't count on TN to get you authorization to start out as a law clerk. No idea if border agents make this distinction though... I think the way to do it is OPT then TN after admission.

You mentioned marriage as a backup plan. If you've got someone willing to marry you, it should be your primary plan. Presently, Canadians seem to figure out work authorization without major problems, but you don't want your life to hang in the balance of some agent. With the current political climate I'd be more than a little worried that someone looks at the TN program and realizes that with swaths of unemployed American attorneys, it doesn't make sense to let Canadians come in and do the work.

This... I take it some of you are 0L's... This is why it's prudent to apply for your OPT during your last semester (since you can apply for OPT without actually obtaining a job offer) with a starting date of around July 30th (You must receive approval for OPT before your 60-day grace period expires)... Since y'all are aspiring lawyers, you will be taking the bar sometime between July 28-30th. You can work in any law-related jobs with an OPT and there's no vetting process.

Then you have 3 months to look for a job, if you haven't gotten one already. Technically, your OPT will end before Aug. 1 of the following year and chances are you'll have been admitted to a bar. As soon as you are admitted however, you can apply TN as a "lawyer"

If you're lucky enough to get a big law gig, I'm sure they'll use their resource to secure you a working visa one way or another. Smaller firms, I'm not so sure.

[Npret]

Thankfully the category for lawyers is literally just "lawyer" and if you have a JD and are working for a big law firm it'd be hard to say you are not a lawyer... except if.."associate" does not fall into the defined "lawyer" category even though "associates" do lawyer stuff and are called lawyers and have a JD but that's not the job title..what about "attorney" does that fall into the "lawyer" category?!?!

You can't call yourself a lawyer until you are admitted, and your start date (if biglaw) will predate your admission, so I wouldn't count on TN to get you authorization to start out as a law clerk. No idea if border agents make this distinction though... I think the way to do it is OPT then TN after admission.

You mentioned marriage as a backup plan. If you've got someone willing to marry you, it should be your primary plan. Presently, Canadians seem to figure out work authorization without major problems, but you don't want your life to hang in the balance of some agent. With the current political climate I'd be more than a little worried that someone looks at the TN program and realizes that with swaths of unemployed American attorneys, it doesn't make sense to let Canadians come in and do the work.

This... I take it some of you are 0L's... This is why it's prudent to apply for your OPT during your last semester (since you can apply for OPT without actually obtaining a job offer) with a starting date of around July 30th (You must receive approval for OPT before your 60-day grace period expires)... Since y'all are aspiring lawyers, you will be taking the bar sometime between July 28-30th. You can work in any law-related jobs with an OPT and there's no vetting process.

Then you have 3 months to look for a job, if you haven't gotten one already. Technically, your OPT will end before Aug. 1 of the following year and chances are you'll have been admitted to a bar. As soon as you are admitted however, you can apply TN as a "lawyer"

If you're lucky enough to get a big law gig, I'm sure they'll use their resource to secure you a working visa one way or another. Smaller firms, I'm not so sure.

What is this one way or another? Am I missing something?

Read Sullivan & Cromwell policy:
https://careers.sullcrom.com/visa-policy

Also, it is easy to find how many labor certifications and visas firms filed over the past few years. Lots of sites report that data. Just google it if you have a firm or a few firms in mind.

[Calka]

one way or another....

OPT/H1B/TN

Canadians can start working at firms after graduation under all three visa statuses...

[Anonymous User]

I could be wrong.. but the two reports you've cited are instances where the border agent exercised their personal discretion in denying entry, and not a reflection of official changes in NAFTA. Technically, to obtain TN visa, you just have to interview with an agent and typically that's easy. But sometimes, you get an agent who doesn't really understand TN requirements and/or find you suspicious of dual intent or whatever, and they could just deny your entry. For example, my understanding is that TN doesn't require income to be considered "employed," but I know someone whose TN was denied because the agent thought employment required an income. Later, that person got their TN after interviewing with another agent. Also, the second example -- volunteers being denied entry -- I'm not sure that pertains to TN at all. It's unclear what VISA they tried to come under, and since they're volunteers, it's even more unclear if they qualified under any of the designated profession.

[Anonymous User]

I could be wrong.. but the two reports you've cited are instances where the border agent exercised their personal discretion in denying entry, and not a reflection of official changes in NAFTA. Technically, to obtain TN visa, you just have to interview with an agent and typically that's easy. But sometimes, you get an agent who doesn't really understand TN requirements and/or find you suspicious of dual intent or whatever, and they could just deny your entry. For example, my understanding is that TN doesn't require income to be considered "employed," but I know someone whose TN was denied because the agent thought employment required an income. Later, that person got their TN after interviewing with another agent. Also, the second example -- volunteers being denied entry -- I'm not sure that pertains to TN at all. It's unclear what VISA they tried to come under, and since they're volunteers, it's even more unclear if they qualified under any of the designated profession.

There are a couple issues to address. First, it wasn't personal discretion when border guards made a blanket decision to say all advanced nurse practitioners didn't qualify for TN when for decades they had.. this is a clear new policy to reinterpret the TN visa. There are abuses.. for example the economics profession where most finance people come in under that category. It is completely within the right of the U.S. to determine who is allowed in on a work visa. But under these circumstances RNs should include people that are literally RNs.. if you want to say an investment banker isn't an economist that's a fair distinction but to say someone that acts under a role that most nurses do is all of a sudden not a true RN because they are performing an advance function of nurses implies that the distinction isn't about function but literary definition.

Second, the volunteers article demonstrates a clear new interpretation of work product. If volunteers are not allowed to come to the U.S. to literally only benefit U.S. citizens that have undergone extreme circumstances for fear of replacing construction jobs (that I might add no one was filling) it means that the CPB has taken a new policy stance on what it means to come to the U.S. to do anything, TN or otherwise.. The fact is that this is a new border patrol.. I'm not going to say whether it is right or wrong because it is the U.S. prerogative to make their own rules but the NAFTA agreement was meant for the free flow of workers that are in demand such as nurses which clearly the hospitals in Michigan have clearly expressed a need for..

[Npret]

one way or another....

OPT/H1B/TN

Canadians can start working at firms after graduation under all three visa statuses...

Yes but it's up to the employee to make sure they have status, not the firm. OP should be in good shape, but is worried about not getting TN or H1B. As I posted, even the top biglaw firms don't promise anything regarding employment if you don't get the visa you need.

[Calka]

one way or another....

OPT/H1B/TN

Canadians can start working at firms after graduation under all three visa statuses...

Yes but it's up to the employee to make sure they have status, not the firm. OP should be in good shape, but is worried about not getting TN or H1B. As I posted, even the top biglaw firms don't promise anything regarding employment if you don't get the visa you need.

Ultimately, it's up to USCIS...not the employee. The firm, having made the investment i.e. spending $$ on summers, spending $$ in writing off accountable hours during recruitment, opportunity cost if the associate can't work... won't be sitting on their hands... in fact, they are pretty proactive about helping the associate to file the requisite paperwork.

One final note, the OP is mistaken about using CPT for summers.. Under CPT, one cannot get paid since CPT = externship.... so, if OP wants/aspires to summer at a big law firm during 2L summer, he/she needs to use OPT, which then will eat into post-graduate OPT.... UPDATE: ABA rules now allow for paid externships, if the school allows it.

[Anonymous User]

one way or another....

OPT/H1B/TN

Canadians can start working at firms after graduation under all three visa statuses...

Yes but it's up to the employee to make sure they have status, not the firm. OP should be in good shape, but is worried about not getting TN or H1B. As I posted, even the top biglaw firms don't promise anything regarding employment if you don't get the visa you need.

Ultimately, it's up to USCIS...not the employee. The firm, having made the investment i.e. spending $$ on summers, spending $$ in writing off accountable hours during recruitment, opportunity cost if the associate can't work... won't be sitting on their hands... in fact, they are pretty proactive about helping the associate to file the requisite paperwork.

One final note, the OP is mistaken about using CPT for summers.. Under CPT, one cannot get paid since CPT = externship.... so, if OP wants/aspires to summer at a big law firm during 2L summer, he/she needs to use OPT, which then will eat into post-graduate OPT.... UPDATE: ABA rules now allow for paid externships, if the school allows it.

This is absolutely not true. At HLS, to use the school I'm familiar with, the default form of summer work authorization for both paid and unpaid work is CPT.