The Vault Rankings are BS Forum

[Anonymous User]

Just in case you haven't heard (or rather, seen) this on TLS enough, I wanted to inform you rising attorneys that the Vault rankings are pure BS.
As a first-year with no real comprehension of "prestige" beyond what Vault and other attorneys on TLS and in my firm have said, I just took the Vault survey and ranked close to 100 firms on prestige. I completed this process largely by guessing and using the knowledge I've derived from previous Vault rankings to determine whether certain firms are prestigious.*

This is completely idiotic. I have no idea why anyone takes these things seriously, including myself up until 5 minutes ago.


*Note: I realized that this was stupid and decided not rank any firms and quit the survey.

[Blackfish]

(guy at a TTT firm)

[zot1]

Retake.

[Anonymous User]

Retake.

Really ignorant response. My post was to comment on the arbitrary way the rankings are created, not my feelings about vault-ranked firms.

[dabigchina]

To be fair, I think it's interesting OP only just realized how bullshit vault is.

[Man from Nantucket]

Retake.

Really ignorant response. My post was to comment on the arbitrary way the rankings are created, not my feelings about vault-ranked firms.

STEP 1: Identify Possible Reasons Why You Underperformed

[Anonymous User]

To be fair, I think it's interesting OP only just realized how bullshit vault is.

I heard the mantra throughout law school, but it's one thing to be told about this survey process (which admittedly has already been written about on TLS) via random internet people vs. doing it yourself.

The prestige ranking is just an arbitrary marker that for me was already reinforced by the Vault rankings I've viewed since I was pre-law.

That being said, I truly wonder how those, who are actually knowledgeable about many firms other than their own, rank prestige of a law firm. Is it client base? Is it name recognition? Is it through interactions with partners ? Or the number of high-profile cases worked or deals closed? PPP? Revenue per lawyer?

[Anonymous User]

Anyone else rank Wachtell as the worst just for funsies?

[Anonymous User]

Anyone else rank Wachtell as the worst just for funsies?

OP anon here. I did and I did so for all "V10" firms I could think of. I doubt it will have any affect on their actual rankings this year haha.

[dabigchina]

To be fair, I think it's interesting OP only just realized how bullshit vault is.

I heard the mantra throughout law school, but it's one thing to be told about this survey process (which admittedly has already been written about on TLS) via random internet people vs. doing it yourself.

The prestige ranking is just an arbitrary marker that for me was already reinforced by the Vault rankings I've viewed since I was pre-law.

That being said, I truly wonder how those, who are actually knowledgeable about many firms other than their own, rank prestige of a law firm. Is it client base? Is it name recognition? Is it through interactions with partners ? Or the number of high-profile cases worked or deals closed? PPP? Revenue per lawyer?

I've heard Chambers is a good approximation. I think people pick up who's good and who's not by working across from different firms. People also love to gossip.

[polareagle]

Anyone else rank Wachtell as the worst just for funsies?

OP anon here. I did and I did so for all "V10" firms I could think of. I doubt it will have any affect on their actual rankings this year haha.

Especially since you quit the survey . . .

*Note: I realized that this was stupid and decided not rank any firms and quit the survey.

[Anonymous User]

Anyone else rank Wachtell as the worst just for funsies?

OP anon here. I did and I did so for all "V10" firms I could think of. I doubt it will have any affect on their actual rankings this year haha.

Especially since you quit the survey . . .

*Note: I realized that this was stupid and decided not rank any firms and quit the survey.

I ranked all the firms I knew of and then when I got to regional/practice group specific rankings, I realized it was arbitrary so I backed out and X-ed out of the browser. [Edit: I could not uncheck the bubble options. So, I'm not sure if registered my "vote" or not, but I considered that quitting and I hope my "votes" did not count.]

[jbagelboy]

I've done it twice and the rules do state that you only rate the firms about which you have knowledge. So if you ranked all 100 firms by guesswork, you were doing it wrong. One of the times I did it, I was very drunk.

Everyone 2L and beyond knows that vault is horseshit.

I think it would be interesting to start a TLS crowd-sourcing project where all the practicing attorneys at firms did the vault survey and agreed on intentional selections to skew the results away from New York/Transactional M&A and introduce some chaos. I think if we got even 100+ TLSer attorneys to conspire together on this, it could have a disruptive/positive impact. (Of course, we couldn't all make the same selections because you can't vote on your own firm).

[lavarman84]

I just want to see a concerted effort to get Skadden ranked #1 for the lulz.

[rpupkin]

I just want to see a concerted effort to get Skadden ranked #1 for the lulz.

No fucking way. Skadden associates are insufferable enough based on their "V3" ranking.

DLA Piper, on the other hand . . . .

[Abbie Doobie]

I just want to see a concerted effort to get Skadden ranked #1 for the lulz.

No fucking way. Skadden associates are insufferable enough based on their "V3" ranking.

DLA Piper, on the other hand . . . .

Just as long as they don't drop out if the prestigious V43 like those proles over at Fried Frank

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

I've done it twice and the rules do state that you only rate the firms about which you have knowledge. So if you ranked all 100 firms by guesswork, you were doing it wrong. One of the times I did it, I was very drunk.

Everyone 2L and beyond knows that vault is horseshit.

I think it would be interesting to start a TLS crowd-sourcing project where all the practicing attorneys at firms did the vault survey and agreed on intentional selections to skew the results away from New York/Transactional M&A and introduce some chaos. I think if we got even 100+ TLSer attorneys to conspire together on this, it could have a disruptive/positive impact. (Of course, we couldn't all make the same selections because you can't vote on your own firm).

I sort of did this. I ranked them according to the metrics that would matter day-to-day to an associate. More credit to those who pay above-market comp, more credit to those paying well in low COL areas, more credit to those with reputations of being a little easier hours-wise, and way, way less credit to S&C et. al for demanding that students be in the top 10% and bill 2300 but expect to pay you the same as Fried Frank.

I talked to other people who did it and they all said something along the lines of "Cravath is ranked highly, so I ranked them highly," so my money's on the hamster wheel continuing.

[lavarman84]

I just want to see a concerted effort to get Skadden ranked #1 for the lulz.

No fucking way. Skadden associates are insufferable enough based on their "V3" ranking.

DLA Piper, on the other hand . . . .

But it will be so upsetting to the rest of the V5/V10 that it will be totally worth it. Although, dla piper would be a worthy cause.

[jingosaur]

My understanding of how to interpret Vault rankings is that every firm up to and including dla piper is an elite firm. Every firm ranked below dla piper is garbage. I agree with the rest of the commenters ITT who are saying there's too much cream in this coffee.

[notgreat]

Our recruiting people asked us to fill in the survey, including our ranking of other firms, on a day when I was pretty busy and it was already 10 pm or so and I wanted to go home. So, I gave very quick responses without thinking about them at all. I WOULD PUT ZERO STOCK IN MY ANSWERS.

I ranked Cleary an 8 and DPW a 9. Why the delta? Because the individual rankings seemed roughly right when I spent a second or less answering each question as I was trying to get my ass out of the office. Just one anecdote, but I have to imagine a lot of people treat it with similar flippancy.

[Anonymous User]

Lol, my firm didn't send me the vault survey because I've been given notice that I'm fired. Looks like they purposely exclude some folks. What a dog shit firm

[Anonymous User]

They're BS for more niche practice groups (of which I am part of). They probably have some value for corporate and general commercial litigation.