Hating Biglaw - Please Help Forum

[Anonymous User]

If you got 100k units that aren't decrepit shitholes, you clearly live in a very low CoL area. With a combined income of 250k, the cards are pretty heavily stacked in your favor. Not everyone is in those circumstances.

You also mention you only know about the properties through your husband. Opportunities like that don't come at all for many other people.

I don't disagree that this path is not going to be available for just anyone. I commented earlier that I do not even really recommend being a landlord. However, I do not have any special units; I just do single family rentals from the normal stuff you can find for sale, and my income (without rentals) is less than half that. Cumulatively my rentals are worth more than that. I don't have anything special other than a bit of luck on timing and a lot of persistence. It seems like you guys are picking apart this one story for some reason. Her (?) point really isn't go buy rentals, rather, that there are things you can do on the side, that you like doing, to make the golden handcuffs drop off which would allow you to take other jobs that don't make you hate life.

This. I'm the same way. My goal is to be fairly financial independent by age 30. For me that means, not having to work biglaw, and being able to go into public interest without worry. For others, that might mean never having to work again. I don't understand why everyone is hating on people for doing something different to change their trajectory away from Biglaw. Isn't that what we should all be doing?

[PeanutsNJam]

If you got 100k units that aren't decrepit shitholes, you clearly live in a very low CoL area. With a combined income of 250k, the cards are pretty heavily stacked in your favor. Not everyone is in those circumstances.

You also mention you only know about the properties through your husband. Opportunities like that don't come at all for many other people.

I don't disagree that this path is not going to be available for just anyone. I commented earlier that I do not even really recommend being a landlord. However, I do not have any special units; I just do single family rentals from the normal stuff you can find for sale, and my income (without rentals) is less than half that. Cumulatively my rentals are worth more than that. I don't have anything special other than a bit of luck on timing and a lot of persistence. It seems like you guys are picking apart this one story for some reason. Her (?) point really isn't go buy rentals, rather, that there are things you can do on the side, that you like doing, to make the golden handcuffs drop off which would allow you to take other jobs that don't make you hate life.

Yes, but those things are only doable under a very specific set of circumstances (250k combined income, low CoL, opportunity). Successful people going "you can get where I got with hard work!" without acknowledge the copious amounts of luck it took to get there is just lol.

Nobody is shitting on quitting biglaw to do public interest.

[Anonymous User]

If you got 100k units that aren't decrepit shitholes, you clearly live in a very low CoL area. With a combined income of 250k, the cards are pretty heavily stacked in your favor. Not everyone is in those circumstances.

You also mention you only know about the properties through your husband. Opportunities like that don't come at all for many other people.

I don't disagree that this path is not going to be available for just anyone. I commented earlier that I do not even really recommend being a landlord. However, I do not have any special units; I just do single family rentals from the normal stuff you can find for sale, and my income (without rentals) is less than half that. Cumulatively my rentals are worth more than that. I don't have anything special other than a bit of luck on timing and a lot of persistence. It seems like you guys are picking apart this one story for some reason. Her (?) point really isn't go buy rentals, rather, that there are things you can do on the side, that you like doing, to make the golden handcuffs drop off which would allow you to take other jobs that don't make you hate life.

Yes, but those things are only doable under a very specific set of circumstances (250k combined income, low CoL, opportunity). Successful people going "you can get where I got with hard work!" without acknowledge the copious amounts of luck it took to get there is just lol.

This thread is about hating Biglaw. If you are in Biglaw you make 180k in a high cost of living city. I know people that invest out of state all the time with success and a good property manager. And if real estate isn't for you, then find a different side hustle or way to invest. The point is that you make a shit ton of money in Biglaw and you can put that money to work in other ways.

[PeanutsNJam]

If you got 100k units that aren't decrepit shitholes, you clearly live in a very low CoL area. With a combined income of 250k, the cards are pretty heavily stacked in your favor. Not everyone is in those circumstances.

You also mention you only know about the properties through your husband. Opportunities like that don't come at all for many other people.

I don't disagree that this path is not going to be available for just anyone. I commented earlier that I do not even really recommend being a landlord. However, I do not have any special units; I just do single family rentals from the normal stuff you can find for sale, and my income (without rentals) is less than half that. Cumulatively my rentals are worth more than that. I don't have anything special other than a bit of luck on timing and a lot of persistence. It seems like you guys are picking apart this one story for some reason. Her (?) point really isn't go buy rentals, rather, that there are things you can do on the side, that you like doing, to make the golden handcuffs drop off which would allow you to take other jobs that don't make you hate life.

Yes, but those things are only doable under a very specific set of circumstances (250k combined income, low CoL, opportunity). Successful people going "you can get where I got with hard work!" without acknowledge the copious amounts of luck it took to get there is just lol.

This thread is about hating Biglaw. If you are in Biglaw you make 180k in a high cost of living city. I know people that invest out of state all the time with success and a good property manager. And if real estate isn't for you, then find a different side hustle or way to invest. The point is that you make a shit ton of money in Biglaw and you can put that money to work in other ways.

Right, but you do realize that investments (especially real estate) are a risk, and with each "I make bank with 6 units" is accompanied with dozens of "I invested 300k into property that is now worth 100k"? This is like someone going to Hofstra, getting biglaw, and telling people they can do it too if they work hard!

Maybe people are risk adverse and don't want to invest almost all of their savings into something that might implode? Great, you took a gamble and it paid off. "GO GAMBLE!" is not good advice for leaving biglaw.

[Anonymous User]

If you got 100k units that aren't decrepit shitholes, you clearly live in a very low CoL area. With a combined income of 250k, the cards are pretty heavily stacked in your favor. Not everyone is in those circumstances.

You also mention you only know about the properties through your husband. Opportunities like that don't come at all for many other people.

I don't disagree that this path is not going to be available for just anyone. I commented earlier that I do not even really recommend being a landlord. However, I do not have any special units; I just do single family rentals from the normal stuff you can find for sale, and my income (without rentals) is less than half that. Cumulatively my rentals are worth more than that. I don't have anything special other than a bit of luck on timing and a lot of persistence. It seems like you guys are picking apart this one story for some reason. Her (?) point really isn't go buy rentals, rather, that there are things you can do on the side, that you like doing, to make the golden handcuffs drop off which would allow you to take other jobs that don't make you hate life.

Yes, but those things are only doable under a very specific set of circumstances (250k combined income, low CoL, opportunity). Successful people going "you can get where I got with hard work!" without acknowledge the copious amounts of luck it took to get there is just lol.

Ok but I just told you I have none of those things (I even bought during highs and weathered crashes, I have school debt, I don't make 100k, I only search through regular listings and get regular mortgages) and own more than that pp. I get it is not "just do real estate bro" and have actively acknowledged people fail all the time, but picking apart this one story seems odd when it really is not the point. Maybe op could be into penny stocks and get lucky, maybe build custom furniture, maybe buy and sell tvs from Walmart, whatever. There may be something out there op can use to bring in enough income that op could feel ok with taking a better job.

Other anon - totally. I want to retire early and just play with my properties while traveling. I want to do a couple flips that I don't have to live in for fun.

[Anonymous User]

Biglaw is full of miserable people too afraid to do anything else. No surprise half this thread is people picking apart ways to make money on the side.

[Tiny Rick!]

Biglaw is full of miserable people too afraid to do anything else. No surprise half this thread is people picking apart ways to make money on the side.

That's very brave, anon.

[deepseapartners]

Biglaw is full of miserable people too afraid to do anything else. No surprise half this thread is people picking apart ways to make money on the side.

Biglaw may be full of miserable people who are not inclined to pursue another career, but telling people who spent years of their lives to become lawyers that the real trick is to just live frugally and become a landlord is, at the very least, super narrow and not much different than holding a Holiday Inn conference room seminar.

[Anonymous User]

Biglaw is full of miserable people too afraid to do anything else. No surprise half this thread is people picking apart ways to make money on the side.

*I'm Anon above this post*
I don't agree with this. It's very hard/intimidating to sacrifice the little time you have to research and find and tend to something on the side. Pnj brought up a good point when he said people are worried about putting in the money that's really necessary to get a return. Lawyers as a group are often risk averse, and putting in the time can hurt your day job and losing money on top of that would hurt and make you feel more trapped. I like being a lawyer but I knew it would work with my goals going in. It would be way harder to find out I like real estate now that I'm employed. I do think picking apart every idea as "no way that could ever work for me" is unhelpful as it can block finding a good opportunity, but I do understand the impulse. I hear of people winning big in other businesses and my first response is usually feeling a bit jealous then thinking well they just got super lucky. After that impulse subsides I focus on why real estate fits me and my goals and go back to working on those. I just think people who ARE unhappy should put in some time, even when precious little is available, to find a way of doing something to help so they can explore better employment for themselves.

[FormerChild]

For NY transactional (specifically M&A) associates -- If you had to estimate, considering slow and crazy periods, what is the average time you leave the office on a nightly basis, and on average how many hours per weekend are you putting in? It would be great if those willing to respond could also say what time they usually leave during slow periods, is it ever before 730-8? I know that in M&A there is no normal so its very difficult to say a time with any consistency, but I'd still appreciate any experience anyone has. One more thing, for those of you at "relaxed face time firms," is it acceptable to leave the office at say 7ish and work from home the rest of the night? Thanks in advance

[Anonymous User]

For NY transactional (specifically M&A) associates -- If you had to estimate, considering slow and crazy periods, what is the average time you leave the office on a nightly basis, and on average how many hours per weekend are you putting in? It would be great if those willing to respond could also say what time they usually leave during slow periods, is it ever before 730-8? I know that in M&A there is no normal so its very difficult to say a time with any consistency, but I'd still appreciate any experience anyone has. One more thing, for those of you at "relaxed face time firms," is it acceptable to leave the office at say 7ish and work from home the rest of the night? Thanks in advance

When I'm not busy I'll leave at 5 or just work from home, even at a nyc v5 corporate environment. Its just that it's not often we're slow. Ive had months where its midnight or later every single night.

[oblig.lawl.ref]

For NY transactional (specifically M&A) associates -- If you had to estimate, considering slow and crazy periods, what is the average time you leave the office on a nightly basis, and on average how many hours per weekend are you putting in? It would be great if those willing to respond could also say what time they usually leave during slow periods, is it ever before 730-8? I know that in M&A there is no normal so its very difficult to say a time with any consistency, but I'd still appreciate any experience anyone has. One more thing, for those of you at "relaxed face time firms," is it acceptable to leave the office at say 7ish and work from home the rest of the night? Thanks in advance

When I'm not busy I'll leave at 5 or just work from home, even at a nyc v5 corporate environment. Its just that it's not often we're slow. Ive had months where its midnight or later every single night.

Dood, what the actual fuck. At my CA corporate firm that is crazy. People would get real concerned around here if someone was midnight or later every single night for a month straight.

[Anonymous User]

For NY transactional (specifically M&A) associates -- If you had to estimate, considering slow and crazy periods, what is the average time you leave the office on a nightly basis, and on average how many hours per weekend are you putting in? It would be great if those willing to respond could also say what time they usually leave during slow periods, is it ever before 730-8? I know that in M&A there is no normal so its very difficult to say a time with any consistency, but I'd still appreciate any experience anyone has. One more thing, for those of you at "relaxed face time firms," is it acceptable to leave the office at say 7ish and work from home the rest of the night? Thanks in advance

When I'm not busy I'll leave at 5 or just work from home, even at a nyc v5 corporate environment. Its just that it's not often we're slow. Ive had months where its midnight or later every single night.

Dood, what the actual fuck. At my CA corporate firm that is crazy. People would get real concerned around here if someone was midnight or later every single night for a month straight.

Yea it sucks and I'm miserable. What do you want me to say.

[Anonymous User]

There are three associates on my floor at an NYC v5 who have been at office every day, midnight or later, since Feb 1. Even on weekends. They are literally wearing sweaters and jeans and sneakers but everyone is like "lol yeah you deserve to dress relaxed."

So it happens, but it's still notable when it does (so it's not like..super common).

[sundance95]

The moral of the story seems to be don't do NYC and don't do corporate.

[sundance95]

The moral of the story seems to be don't do NYC and don't do corporate.

Tho tbf all the in house jobs want corporate ppl

[Lacepiece23]

Don't associates not get into the office until like 10 am at the earliest in NYC? I mean if you're getting in at 10-11 a.m. staying until 12 p.m. when you're busy isn't that unimaginable. Not saying NYC isn't worse, but just trying to add some context.

[AVBucks4239]

If you got 100k units that aren't decrepit shitholes, you clearly live in a very low CoL area. With a combined income of 250k, the cards are pretty heavily stacked in your favor. Not everyone is in those circumstances.

You also mention you only know about the properties through your husband. Opportunities like that don't come at all for many other people.

Biglaw is full of miserable people too afraid to do anything else. No surprise half this thread is people picking apart ways to make money on the side.

*I'm Anon above this post*
I don't agree with this. It's very hard/intimidating to sacrifice the little time you have to research and find and tend to something on the side. Pnj brought up a good point when he said people are worried about putting in the money that's really necessary to get a return. Lawyers as a group are often risk averse, and putting in the time can hurt your day job and losing money on top of that would hurt and make you feel more trapped. I like being a lawyer but I knew it would work with my goals going in. It would be way harder to find out I like real estate now that I'm employed. I do think picking apart every idea as "no way that could ever work for me" is unhelpful as it can block finding a good opportunity, but I do understand the impulse. I hear of people winning big in other businesses and my first response is usually feeling a bit jealous then thinking well they just got super lucky. After that impulse subsides I focus on why real estate fits me and my goals and go back to working on those. I just think people who ARE unhappy should put in some time, even when precious little is available, to find a way of doing something to help so they can explore better employment for themselves.

Biglaw is full of miserable people too afraid to do anything else. No surprise half this thread is people picking apart ways to make money on the side.

Biglaw may be full of miserable people who are not inclined to pursue another career, but telling people who spent years of their lives to become lawyers that the real trick is to just live frugally and become a landlord is, at the very least, super narrow and not much different than holding a Holiday Inn conference room seminar.

The whole "big law or bust" crowd on this forum, which mostly includes people who choke on their own anecdotal experience living on the coasts or other HCOL areas, is the biggest running joke on this forum. They simply can't imagine another career path or having the time to pursue other income opportunities on the side.

Most attorneys I graduated with that aren't doing big law are doing great. In fact, I'd say they are doing better than the 4-5 people I know working in big law. Just to provide some examples in addition to the anon-landlord poster to oppose the big law crowd:

1. I have a friend who went to Cleveland State, works at a small SSI/workers' comp firm, and makes $60k a year. Her husband makes about $50k working for ODOT (Department of Transportation). They had significant student loan debt, but saved a bunch and bought four rental properties in Ashtabula for a TOTAL of $180k. They now earn about $3,000/month in rental income. They will probably buy another couple rentals and be totally financially independent within 3-4 years.

2. I have another friend who went to Cleveland State for a JD-MBA and went the accounting direction. He does taxes 8 weeks a year and makes about 35k doing it (granted he works 14 hours/6 days a week during this time). He also owns five rental properties (four down in Youngstown, one in Columbus) that generate about $2,200 in monthly income. He will stop having to do taxes within two years tops.

3. Me personally: went to Ohio State, landed a job at a small firm in NE Ohio. I make $50k. Fiancee makes $62k. Our total monthly expenses are about $2,400/month (that includes my loans). We could get it down to $2,100 but I'm not an insane frugal blogger using towels to wipe my ass. Point is that we are on pace to save $40k this year, and we could have done better, but we should be financially independent by 42 or so.

The other landlord posters in this thread seem to have similar circumstances, similar financial attitudes, and similar views towards making money in ways other than practicing law. Being frugal is not the answer to everything, but having low fixed costs and a job that doesn't eat your entire life is in itself leverage.

But hey, YOU NEED TO GO TO A T14 AND YOU NEED TO DO BIG LAW AND YOU CAN'T GET OUT BECAUSE YOU NEED TO PAY OFF YOUR LOANS!!! AHHHH!!!

This forum never gets old.

[Anonymous User]

So is the answer live in low col cities?

[AVBucks4239]

So is the answer live in low col cities?

This is a fun tool to understand why, in part, it's better to work in a Cleveland or Pittsburgh than a NYC or SF: http://www.bankrate.com/calculators/sav ... lator.aspx

[1styearlateral]

So is the answer live in low col cities?

This is a fun tool to understand why, in part, it's better to work in a Cleveland or Pittsburgh than a NYC or SF: http://www.bankrate.com/calculators/sav ... lator.aspx

I agree that the COL is outstanding in those cities. However, I lived in Pittsburgh for several years and really, it gets old after a while. I can only imagine Cleveland is the same or worse. At least in NYC or other coastal cities, when you have free time, you have an unlimited list of things to do and places to go that you couldn't complete in ten lifetimes let alone one.

I'll probably get destroyed on these forums for this, but: My philosophy is you only have one life, and you can't spend half of it saving for the future. I have friends who still live at home claiming they're doing so to save money so they'll have "tons of cash when they're older." So what. Who cares if you have tons of cash if you're too old to spend it. Enjoy life now while you can while keeping a roof over your head.

[deepseapartners]

If you got 100k units that aren't decrepit shitholes, you clearly live in a very low CoL area. With a combined income of 250k, the cards are pretty heavily stacked in your favor. Not everyone is in those circumstances.

You also mention you only know about the properties through your husband. Opportunities like that don't come at all for many other people.

Biglaw is full of miserable people too afraid to do anything else. No surprise half this thread is people picking apart ways to make money on the side.

*I'm Anon above this post*
I don't agree with this. It's very hard/intimidating to sacrifice the little time you have to research and find and tend to something on the side. Pnj brought up a good point when he said people are worried about putting in the money that's really necessary to get a return. Lawyers as a group are often risk averse, and putting in the time can hurt your day job and losing money on top of that would hurt and make you feel more trapped. I like being a lawyer but I knew it would work with my goals going in. It would be way harder to find out I like real estate now that I'm employed. I do think picking apart every idea as "no way that could ever work for me" is unhelpful as it can block finding a good opportunity, but I do understand the impulse. I hear of people winning big in other businesses and my first response is usually feeling a bit jealous then thinking well they just got super lucky. After that impulse subsides I focus on why real estate fits me and my goals and go back to working on those. I just think people who ARE unhappy should put in some time, even when precious little is available, to find a way of doing something to help so they can explore better employment for themselves.

Biglaw is full of miserable people too afraid to do anything else. No surprise half this thread is people picking apart ways to make money on the side.

Biglaw may be full of miserable people who are not inclined to pursue another career, but telling people who spent years of their lives to become lawyers that the real trick is to just live frugally and become a landlord is, at the very least, super narrow and not much different than holding a Holiday Inn conference room seminar.

The whole "big law or bust" crowd on this forum, which mostly includes people who choke on their own anecdotal experience living on the coasts or other HCOL areas, is the biggest running joke on this forum. They simply can't imagine another career path or having the time to pursue other income opportunities on the side.

Most attorneys I graduated with that aren't doing big law are doing great. In fact, I'd say they are doing better than the 4-5 people I know working in big law. Just to provide some examples in addition to the anon-landlord poster to oppose the big law crowd:

1. I have a friend who went to Cleveland State, works at a small SSI/workers' comp firm, and makes $60k a year. Her husband makes about $50k working for ODOT (Department of Transportation). They had significant student loan debt, but saved a bunch and bought four rental properties in Ashtabula for a TOTAL of $180k. They now earn about $3,000/month in rental income. They will probably buy another couple rentals and be totally financially independent within 3-4 years.

2. I have another friend who went to Cleveland State for a JD-MBA and went the accounting direction. He does taxes 8 weeks a year and makes about 35k doing it (granted he works 14 hours/6 days a week during this time). He also owns five rental properties (four down in Youngstown, one in Columbus) that generate about $2,200 in monthly income. He will stop having to do taxes within two years tops.

3. Me personally: went to Ohio State, landed a job at a small firm in NE Ohio. I make $50k. Fiancee makes $62k. Our total monthly expenses are about $2,400/month (that includes my loans). We could get it down to $2,100 but I'm not an insane frugal blogger using towels to wipe my ass. Point is that we are on pace to save $40k this year, and we could have done better, but we should be financially independent by 42 or so.

The other landlord posters in this thread seem to have similar circumstances, similar financial attitudes, and similar views towards making money in ways other than practicing law. Being frugal is not the answer to everything, but having low fixed costs and a job that doesn't eat your entire life is in itself leverage.

But hey, YOU NEED TO GO TO A T14 AND YOU NEED TO DO BIG LAW AND YOU CAN'T GET OUT BECAUSE YOU NEED TO PAY OFF YOUR LOANS!!! AHHHH!!!

This forum never gets old.

I don't disagree with the substance of your post, but you substantially mischaracterized the above quotes (including mine), which were specifically saying that "choose to live extremely modestly and become a small-time landlord" isn't the golden ticket for people who hate Biglaw, in no small part because most people who are looking to get out of Biglaw have a massive amount of debt and can't realistically choose to live at a much lower standard of living without either (a) giving up the job that's allowing them to service their debt in order to move to a lower COL area, or (b) keeping all that debt hanging over them. This is great advice for someone who lives in a low COL market, has lower risk-aversion than your usual law school applicant, and hasn't already incurred a ton of debt and is thus looking for the highest-paying job to get back in the black as quickly as possible.

[AVBucks4239]

I don't disagree with the substance of your post, but you substantially mischaracterized the above quotes (including mine), which were specifically saying that "choose to live extremely modestly and become a small-time landlord" isn't the golden ticket for people who hate Biglaw, in no small part because most people who are looking to get out of Biglaw have a massive amount of debt and can't realistically choose to live at a much lower standard of living without either (a) giving up the job that's allowing them to service their debt in order to move to a lower COL area, or (b) keeping all that debt hanging over them. This is great advice for someone who lives in a low COL market, has lower risk-aversion than your usual law school applicant, and hasn't already incurred a ton of debt and is thus looking for the highest-paying job to get back in the black as quickly as possible.

My fiancee and I graduated with a combined $210k debt. Mine is currently at $149k (on REPAYE and never going to pay it off). Choosing a career path and living in a high COL area merely to service debt is silly.

[deepseapartners]

My fiancee and I graduated with a combined $210k debt. Mine is currently at $149k (on REPAYE and never going to pay it off). Choosing a career path and living in a high COL area merely to service debt is silly.

It's not any sillier than your decision to keep that debt for 25 years.

[Anonymous User]

My fiancee and I graduated with a combined $210k debt. Mine is currently at $149k (on REPAYE and never going to pay it off). Choosing a career path and living in a high COL area merely to service debt is silly.

It's not any sillier than your decision to keep that debt for 25 years.

I concur with the above. Enjoy that 25 years of the debt man on your shoulder.