Pitt Law's "K&L Gates Diversity Fellowship" Forum

[180orDie]

Does anyone know anything about this?

I got an email from Pitt Law school that reads as follows:

"I’m William M. Carter Jr., Dean of The University of Pittsburgh School of Law. You are a student who has demonstrated exceptional ability and talent that well prepares you for the rigors of a Pitt Law education. I'd like to invite you to apply to our school in order to be considered for a special opportunity Pitt Law offers to students of your caliber: the K&L Gates Diversity Fellowship.

The K&L Gates Diversity Fellowship supports a full-tuition scholarship for an entering student at Pitt Law for all three years of law school and, perhaps even most important to your long-term career, a paid summer associate position at K&L Gates in the student's first and second summers of law school. We are one of the very few schools nationally to offer a partnership of this kind, which combines a full scholarship with paid real-world experience at one of the world’s most prominent global law firms."

I would normally never ever consider a school like Pitt, but a guaranteed summer associate position at a V40 firm? Am I reading this right? What's the catch, the fact that you would have no mobility with a Pitt Law degree?

[Anonymous User]

Does anyone know anything about this?

I got an email from Pitt Law school that reads as follows:

"I’m William M. Carter Jr., Dean of the University of Pittsburgh School of Law. You are a student who has demonstrated exceptional ability and talent that well prepares you for the rigors of a Pitt Law education. I'd like to invite you to apply to our school in order to be considered for a special opportunity Pitt Law offers to students of your caliber: the K&L Gates Diversity Fellowship.

The K&L Gates Diversity Fellowship supports a full-tuition scholarship for an entering student at Pitt Law for all three years of law school and, perhaps even most important to your long-term career, a paid summer associate position at K&L Gates in the student's first and second summers of law school. We are one of the very few schools nationally to offer a partnership of this kind, which combines a full scholarship with paid real-world experience at one of the world’s most prominent global law firms."

I would normally never ever consider a school like Pitt, but a guaranteed summer associate position at a V40 firm? Am I reading this right? What's the catch, the fact that you would have no mobility with a Pitt Law degree?

I'm from Pittsburgh, and turned down a full ride at Pitt for a T14. I'd definitely consider this, but there are some drawbacks. K&L notoriously no offers summer. They'd probably give you both summers, but there is a very high probability you wouldn't receive full time employment if you are not law review. If you don't receive an offer and are not law review good luck getting a biglaw job in the Pgh market--most firms here really don't care enough about diversity to drop below law review for a URM.

Let's say you do end up with a full time offer. K&L's health has been questioned for some time. There are rumors that they may not even be around for much longer. And the rest of the biglaw firms in Pittsburgh are not really thriving like they used to. The Cohens of the world have been undercutting the large firms here because their rates are lower. There is also a chance that you would be stuck in Pittsburgh with little to know experience, and would have to draw upon your law school grades, which will matter for a few years after graduation. Just my thoughts.

[Anonymous User]

They'd probably give you both summers, but there is a very high probability you wouldn't receive full time employment if you are not law review.

lol no.

K&L's health has been questioned for some time. There are rumors that they may not even be around for much longer.

This is probably true.

And the rest of the biglaw firms in Pittsburgh are not really thriving like they used to.

This as well.

The only drawback I see here is that this is obviously an offer for K&L's Pittsburgh office. If you have any desire to work in pretty much any other market, I wouldn't consider this opportunity. You'll be stuck in Pitt but you'd have a chance to bounce around from firm to firm, maybe go in house.

Source: When to school in Pitt and know every firm worthwhile in that city. Nearly all my classmates are still there, although not very many are "biglaw."

[Anonymous User]

They'd probably give you both summers, but there is a very high probability you wouldn't receive full time employment if you are not law review.

lol no.

Just curious, but where am I incorrect with this statement. I have anecdotally seen diverse summers offered a first year position then either no offered after that summer, because of grades, or, in the case of K&L, they no offer a lot of people after the second summer.

[Anonymous User]

I'm also a Pittsburgh native. I went to a T14 but I'm familiar with the Pittsburgh legal market.

K&L is generally risky, since they have in the past few years no offered several summers. Other summers there have also turned down their offers. I don't know much about this fellowship, but I don't think there is harm in at least applying to Pitt for the fellowship.

With that said, there are very few biglaw positions in Pittsburgh outside of K&L. Jones Day pays the most at 160, but they have 8 person summer classes. Reed Smith and K&L both pay 145-150, not sure which, but I have rarely heard positive things coming out of either firm. The rest of the firms in Pittsburgh all pay a bit below that, but they are generally either small branches of biglaw firms (like Fox, Morgan Lewis, Buchanan Ingersoll) or midlaw (like Cohen).

From what I can tell the vast majority of Pitt students stay in Pittsburgh, as the degree really is not portable outside the region. Finally, the few biglaw positions in the city are generally reserved for law review of Pitt and Duquesne students or T14 students with ties.

I have no idea if the fellowship would be contingent on getting strong grades. So, I would apply for the hell of it, but at the end of the day I myself would not be comfortable with pigeonholing myself by going to Pitt. Even if you are sure you want to live in Pittsburgh I think it is safer to try and get a scholarship at a T14 rather than going to Pitt for free.

[zot1]

One should never pick a school based on the hopes that one will be chosen for a specific program as a law student. Remember, that'd be a $200k+ gamble.

[Anonymous User]

They'd probably give you both summers, but there is a very high probability you wouldn't receive full time employment if you are not law review.

lol no.

Just curious, but where am I incorrect with this statement. I have anecdotally seen diverse summers offered a first year position then either no offered after that summer, because of grades, or, in the case of K&L, they no offer a lot of people after the second summer.

I'm not saying they don't no-offer (know of at least one instance when they did last year). I'm saying that you're incorrect in stating that OP would be no-offered for not being on LR. That's crazy; I know plenty of people at these firms who weren't on LR at Pitt/Duq.

[RaceJudicata]

One should never pick a school based on the hopes that one will be chosen for a specific program as a law student. Remember, that'd be a $200k+ gamble.

I think this program is something the student would know they are a part of upon admission. not sure, but that is what is sounds like to me.

[Anonymous User]

They'd probably give you both summers, but there is a very high probability you wouldn't receive full time employment if you are not law review.

lol no.

Just curious, but where am I incorrect with this statement. I have anecdotally seen diverse summers offered a first year position then either no offered after that summer, because of grades, or, in the case of K&L, they no offer a lot of people after the second summer.

According to Vault:

Summer Associate Offers
78 out of 88 (2Ls) (2015)

[zot1]

One should never pick a school based on the hopes that one will be chosen for a specific program as a law student. Remember, that'd be a $200k+ gamble.

I think this program is something the student would know they are a part of upon admission. not sure, but that is what is sounds like to me.

I see. Even then, I would hate to tie my future to K&L with its dying reputation.

[RaceJudicata]

One should never pick a school based on the hopes that one will be chosen for a specific program as a law student. Remember, that'd be a $200k+ gamble.

I think this program is something the student would know they are a part of upon admission. not sure, but that is what is sounds like to me.

I see. Even then, I would hate to tie my future to K&L with its dying reputation.

Now that is something I agree with.

[Anonymous User]

They'd probably give you both summers, but there is a very high probability you wouldn't receive full time employment if you are not law review.

lol no.

Just curious, but where am I incorrect with this statement. I have anecdotally seen diverse summers offered a first year position then either no offered after that summer, because of grades, or, in the case of K&L, they no offer a lot of people after the second summer.

I'm not saying they don't no-offer (know of at least one instance when they did last year). I'm saying that you're incorrect in stating that OP would be no-offered for not being on LR. That's crazy; I know plenty of people at these firms who weren't on LR at Pitt/Duq.

Okay, maybe they don't no offer for not being on law review, but what if OP ends up being median, which every 0L should consider the most probably possibility. I definitely know of situations where a diverse hirer ended up being far below the grade cut off, and the firm didn't hire. This differs from a student that is say top 20-25, diverse, but not on law review.

[Anonymous User]

but what if OP ends up being median, which every 0L should consider the most probably possibility.

Won't argue with you there; agreed.

Realistically though, the firm is less likely to no-offer if they like OP and OP produces good work. I know and worked with attorneys from K&L while in law school and although they have somewhat of a superiority complex, they're overall good people who value work product. Sounds like OP will know if he's getting this fellowship before attending... if it's a sure thing, then I would think OP has a very good opportunity to be offered a full-time position at the Pitt office barring failing out.

[Anonymous User]

I won't get into the complex decision of whether or not to accept, attend Pitt, etc. (though the prospect of zero debt and likelihood of biglaw salary--so long as you don't fuck it up--is enticing). But, as a former midlevel associate at a non-PItt K&L office I'll weigh in just to say the reports of their demise are grossly exaggerated. Some offices are undoubtedly struggling (mightily) like Dallas and Chicago, but the firm itself is not going to fall anytime soon. Simply put, they aren't in the same financial straits that the other infamous firms are. They carry no debt. They don't have insane compensation deals (which also affects their ability to attract or retain talent--but they've got some lifers and institutional clients and enough inter-office business that the healthy offices like Pitt, Seattle, until recently Washington, Miami, Cal, can sustain others during droughts). They are penny-pinchers out of principle rather than brink-of-disaster necessity. Point is, they might flounder someday but it won't be anytime soon, even as an 0L looking at it. Who knows what will happen when Kalis steps down in 2017 but given some partners' disdain for him, I'd imagine it will be a temporary boon. Just my .02.

[Anonymous User]

but what if OP ends up being median, which every 0L should consider the most probably possibility.

Won't argue with you there; agreed.

Realistically though, the firm is less likely to no-offer if they like OP and OP produces good work. I know and worked with attorneys from K&L while in law school and although they have somewhat of a superiority complex, they're overall good people who value work product. Sounds like OP will know if he's getting this fellowship before attending... if it's a sure thing, then I would think OP has a very good opportunity to be offered a full-time position at the Pitt office barring failing out.

Former midlevel here - I can vouch for the fact that more than just about any other v50, they care the least about "prestige." Which includes rank, clerkships, etc. And they would care how this would look. So long as you're competent during those summers and not a recluse, and probably not bottom 25% or so, they'd offer.

[Anonymous User]

but what if OP ends up being median, which every 0L should consider the most probably possibility.

Won't argue with you there; agreed.

Realistically though, the firm is less likely to no-offer if they like OP and OP produces good work. I know and worked with attorneys from K&L while in law school and although they have somewhat of a superiority complex, they're overall good people who value work product. Sounds like OP will know if he's getting this fellowship before attending... if it's a sure thing, then I would think OP has a very good opportunity to be offered a full-time position at the Pitt office barring failing out.

I guess here is we have to agree to disagree. I've absolutely seen it happen where a URM is hired into one of the diversity spots and isn't given an offer to return solely because of grades. I do agree if this was a traditional hire through OCI where OP was past the point where grades really mattered, then OP shouldn't worry, like everyone else. I believe that these firms absolutely have cutoffs and will no offer for grades if too far below their standards.

Full disclosure: I am a URM, and have URM friends/acquaintances in the market who participated in these 1L diversity programs.

[Anonymous User]

but what if OP ends up being median, which every 0L should consider the most probably possibility.

Won't argue with you there; agreed.

Realistically though, the firm is less likely to no-offer if they like OP and OP produces good work. I know and worked with attorneys from K&L while in law school and although they have somewhat of a superiority complex, they're overall good people who value work product. Sounds like OP will know if he's getting this fellowship before attending... if it's a sure thing, then I would think OP has a very good opportunity to be offered a full-time position at the Pitt office barring failing out.

I guess here is we have to agree to disagree. I've absolutely seen it happen where a URM is hired into one of the diversity spots and isn't given an offer to return solely because of grades. I do agree if this was a traditional hire through OCI where OP was past the point where grades really mattered, then OP shouldn't worry, like everyone else. I believe that these firms absolutely have cutoffs and will no offer for grades if too far below their standards.

Full disclosure: I am a URM, and have URM friends/acquaintances in the market who participated in these 1L diversity programs.

I guess I'm not taking into account URM status but if anything I would think a job offer would be more secure. But I guess not.

[Anonymous User]

but what if OP ends up being median, which every 0L should consider the most probably possibility.

Won't argue with you there; agreed.

Realistically though, the firm is less likely to no-offer if they like OP and OP produces good work. I know and worked with attorneys from K&L while in law school and although they have somewhat of a superiority complex, they're overall good people who value work product. Sounds like OP will know if he's getting this fellowship before attending... if it's a sure thing, then I would think OP has a very good opportunity to be offered a full-time position at the Pitt office barring failing out.

I guess here is we have to agree to disagree. I've absolutely seen it happen where a URM is hired into one of the diversity spots and isn't given an offer to return solely because of grades. I do agree if this was a traditional hire through OCI where OP was past the point where grades really mattered, then OP shouldn't worry, like everyone else. I believe that these firms absolutely have cutoffs and will no offer for grades if too far below their standards.

Full disclosure: I am a URM, and have URM friends/acquaintances in the market who participated in these 1L diversity programs.

I guess I'm not taking into account URM status but if anything I would think a job offer would be more secure. But I guess not.

I think the difference is that a lot of the firms that participate in these diversity scholarship program participate with the intention of only keeping the 1L for a summer. Cohen has done this multiple times. They don't want to be the firm that doesn't participate, but do not want to extend an offer for fulltime employment to someone substantially under their qualifications. Although I suppose it is possible that all of the associates that I know who were not extended an offer to return had performance issues, but I think this is unlikely.

[Anonymous User]

but what if OP ends up being median, which every 0L should consider the most probably possibility.

Won't argue with you there; agreed.

Realistically though, the firm is less likely to no-offer if they like OP and OP produces good work. I know and worked with attorneys from K&L while in law school and although they have somewhat of a superiority complex, they're overall good people who value work product. Sounds like OP will know if he's getting this fellowship before attending... if it's a sure thing, then I would think OP has a very good opportunity to be offered a full-time position at the Pitt office barring failing out.

I guess here is we have to agree to disagree. I've absolutely seen it happen where a URM is hired into one of the diversity spots and isn't given an offer to return solely because of grades. I do agree if this was a traditional hire through OCI where OP was past the point where grades really mattered, then OP shouldn't worry, like everyone else. I believe that these firms absolutely have cutoffs and will no offer for grades if too far below their standards.

Full disclosure: I am a URM, and have URM friends/acquaintances in the market who participated in these 1L diversity programs.

I guess I'm not taking into account URM status but if anything I would think a job offer would be more secure. But I guess not.

I think the difference is that a lot of the firms that participate in these diversity scholarship program participate with the intention of only keeping the 1L for a summer. Cohen has done this multiple times. They don't want to be the firm that doesn't participate, but do not want to extend an offer for fulltime employment to someone substantially under their qualifications. Although I suppose it is possible that all of the associates that I know who were not extended an offer to return had performance issues, but I think this is unlikely.

OP – you know that K&L probably sent that message to hundreds of other students, right? It's not like anyone (or any URM) that enrolls in Pitt automatically gets the job. According to NALP they only take 2Ls a year...I wouldn't bank on it

And to whoever said K&L Miami can sustain other offices is delusional. K&L Miami is an absolute shitshow

[ND2018]

Does anyone know anything about this?

I got an email from Pitt Law school that reads as follows:

"I’m William M. Carter Jr., Dean of the University of Pittsburgh School of Law. You are a student who has demonstrated exceptional ability and talent that well prepares you for the rigors of a Pitt Law education. I'd like to invite you to apply to our school in order to be considered for a special opportunity Pitt Law offers to students of your caliber: the K&L Gates Diversity Fellowship.

The K&L Gates Diversity Fellowship supports a full-tuition scholarship for an entering student at Pitt Law for all three years of law school and, perhaps even most important to your long-term career, a paid summer associate position at K&L Gates in the student's first and second summers of law school. We are one of the very few schools nationally to offer a partnership of this kind, which combines a full scholarship with paid real-world experience at one of the world’s most prominent global law firms."

I would normally never ever consider a school like Pitt, but a guaranteed summer associate position at a V40 firm? Am I reading this right? What's the catch, the fact that you would have no mobility with a Pitt Law degree?

Big if true. Would be sick coming into law school w/1L and 2L summers locked up at a big firm.

[Anonymous User]

but what if OP ends up being median, which every 0L should consider the most probably possibility.

Won't argue with you there; agreed.

Realistically though, the firm is less likely to no-offer if they like OP and OP produces good work. I know and worked with attorneys from K&L while in law school and although they have somewhat of a superiority complex, they're overall good people who value work product. Sounds like OP will know if he's getting this fellowship before attending... if it's a sure thing, then I would think OP has a very good opportunity to be offered a full-time position at the Pitt office barring failing out.

I guess here is we have to agree to disagree. I've absolutely seen it happen where a URM is hired into one of the diversity spots and isn't given an offer to return solely because of grades. I do agree if this was a traditional hire through OCI where OP was past the point where grades really mattered, then OP shouldn't worry, like everyone else. I believe that these firms absolutely have cutoffs and will no offer for grades if too far below their standards.

Full disclosure: I am a URM, and have URM friends/acquaintances in the market who participated in these 1L diversity programs.

Not delusional. As I said, worked at kl for several years. Not saying that Miami is killing it--I have no idea, really--but they were hiring most of the time I was there and I personally billed at least 500 hours to Miami based cases/clients. Same with LA. Same with DC. Same with Seattle. My point isn't theybsustain other offices, point is he firm won't collapse anytime soon - you can book that - -'d while there are a million things I hate about it, this scholarship would be pretty lucrative. That's all.
I guess I'm not taking into account URM status but if anything I would think a job offer would be more secure. But I guess not.

I think the difference is that a lot of the firms that participate in these diversity scholarship program participate with the intention of only keeping the 1L for a summer. Cohen has done this multiple times. They don't want to be the firm that doesn't participate, but do not want to extend an offer for fulltime employment to someone substantially under their qualifications. Although I suppose it is possible that all of the associates that I know who were not extended an offer to return had performance issues, but I think this is unlikely.

OP – you know that K&L probably sent that message to hundreds of other students, right? It's not like anyone (or any URM) that enrolls in Pitt automatically gets the job. According to NALP they only take 2Ls a year...I wouldn't bank on it

And to whoever said K&L Miami can sustain other offices is delusional. K&L Miami is an absolute shitshow

[Anonymous User]

OP – you know that K&L probably sent that message to hundreds of other students, right? It's not like anyone (or any URM) that enrolls in Pitt automatically gets the job.

Pitt most definitely sent OP the letter. It's a money grab for application fees. That being said, I think OP will know if he/she gets the fellowship before enrolling, so it's really a win/win imo.

[Anonymous User]

I've heard the Pitt office has no-offered a number of quality SAs in the last several years. It's basically a quota system. Kind of sad state of affairs for K&L, really.

[dormaus]

OP – you know that K&L probably sent that message to hundreds of other students, right? It's not like anyone (or any URM) that enrolls in Pitt automatically gets the job.

Pitt most definitely sent OP the letter. It's a money grab for application fees. That being said, I think OP will know if he/she gets the fellowship before enrolling, so it's really a win/win imo.

Saw this email too, the full text said application fee will be waived when you apply.

[TLSCLB]

I think the catch here is that Pitt Law isn't going to be a portable law degree. That's probably the idea behind the partnership anyway; push Pitt Law up from wherever it's current ranking is to Top 50 or higher by attracting students Pitt Law typically would have no shot at enrolling, so that one day it is a more portable degree.

I think it is a no-brainer to apply, and if you accepted into the program with full tuition and two paid summer clerkships locked-in, compare it with whatever your other options are. Depending on how you feel about Pittsburgh, I would take that offer over most schools outside of the top 20 or so, and even then I might still take the Pitt Law offer if the scholarship offers from schools T12 or lower aren't that great. But a caveat to this, of course, is to see if the program requires you to maintain a minimum GPA or if K&L requires you to maintain a minimum GPA in order to be employed or offered back for your second summer. If, for example, you're required to never dip below a 3.5, that makes this offer far less enticing.

Apply, learn more about the program if you get accepted, compare it with your options when you know what they are, then decide.