Why do a lot of biglaw lawyers say they're not "living the life" financially-wise? Forum

[whysoseriousbiglaw]

Can you clarify why life is over at 50?

Old, body failing, mental decline, wrinkly, ugly, nobody wants to talk to you except other olds. You probably live for your family at that point if you have kids, which sounds like shit to me. I'd rather live for myself.

I don't get the point of sacrificing your youth so you can have more money to enjoy when you're old, ugly and practically immobile.

[whysoseriousbiglaw]

Where did I go wrong?

Medical school is hard to get into, but it's not THAT hard.

It's not hard if you are a smart kid who took a full-ride scholarship to State University and killed it as a bio/chem major, if your final outcome is "any med school period." But if you were the smart kid who went to Harvard, Hopkins, Chicago, Dartmouth, Georgetown, etc., it is exactly that hard to get into med school, because your (hard) curve in each class isn't against a bunch of randos who need to fulfill a science requirement, it's against a bunch of other super bright people who also got into your top undergrad and who also want to become doctors.

Uhh.. As a former "premed" bio major, no, it's not. First off, med school isn't like going to law school, getting into "any med school period" is a good result, full stop. (This is to a lesser extent true with osteopathic schools, but even they're generally fine). Second, even granting that the curve might be hard (grade inflation is rampant at many top schools with Harvard being near the top of that list), you have to take, at most, seven (arguably) difficult pre reqs for med school: Bio 1/2, Gen Chem 1/2, Physics 1/2, Orgo 1. That's it, then you can take whatever you want. Finally, and I realize the MCAT has changed recently, but you generally needed ~30 to be competitive for allopathic schools on the old test, that was the 80th percentile.

Med school is difficult to get into, but it's definitely not that difficult.

Thanks for confirming what I said above. If someone thinks getting an 80th percentile score on a standardized test is hard - they are a FULL BLOWN RETARD. Full stop.

[whysoseriousbiglaw]

All I know is I'm a shithead with a useless degree who never had a chance in hell at going to med school and now I make $200k a year because I was good at taking a standardized test. Biglaw is full of people like me.

same

I graduated undergrad with a 3.2 and a bachelors in political science lol. Now I'm 26 and I make 120k, working 50 hours a week max. I dont understand alot of the complaints.

Your outcome is better than most - even those at T-14. The rest of us are working 60 to 80 hour weeks, wanting to kill ourselves.

[whysoseriousbiglaw]

Engineering > law or medicine

The hours/school debt in law and medicine are both awful. Simple as that.
Engineering is the sweet spot, especially with a masters. You get funded via a co-op or research gig during school so no debt. Starting salaries in the 80-100 range. Great work hours and insane demand, constant calls from headhunters waiting to poach you right off the bat. If you can math, then become an engineer.

Yes, this many times over. I should have done engineering (I did quant anyway and am good at math) or copped a CPA license.

I'm thinking of going back to do engineering after law....

[TheSpanishMain]

Can you clarify why life is over at 50?

You probably live for your family at that point if you have kids, which sounds like shit to me. I'd rather live for myself.

Find meaning in something beyond satisfying your own desires. You're not an animal. Narcissistic and vain is no way to go through life, son.

[nealric]

Can you clarify why life is over at 50?

Old, body failing, mental decline, wrinkly, ugly, nobody wants to talk to you except other olds. You probably live for your family at that point if you have kids, which sounds like shit to me. I'd rather live for myself.

I don't get the point of sacrificing your youth so you can have more money to enjoy when you're old, ugly and practically immobile.

I have to chuckle at the "piratically immobile" comment. My grandfather climbed all of the 14,000ft peaks in Colorado, the Mexican Volcanos, Kilimanjairo, and went trekking in the Andes in his 60s and 70s. He still travels the world in his 80s. I suppose there's always the possibility life will throw you a curveball and you end up with a chronic disease, but there are plenty of people in their 50s and later who have plenty of physical ability. Those who are "practically immobile" in their 50s were probably that way in their 30s.

[whysoseriousbiglaw]

Can you clarify why life is over at 50?

You probably live for your family at that point if you have kids, which sounds like shit to me. I'd rather live for myself.

Find meaning in something beyond satisfying your own desires. You're not an animal. Narcissistic and vain is no way to go through life, son.

I'm married and have my own hobbies. Why would I have kids to ruin my life financially, time-wise, stress, etc.? Also the world is going down the shitter, especially the US.I will have kids to what - make them suffer through the same shit we have to suffer through, if not worse? Having kids with the state of decline in the US is a very selfish thing to do.

[deepseapartners]

Where did I go wrong?

Medical school is hard to get into, but it's not THAT hard.

It's not hard if you are a smart kid who took a full-ride scholarship to State University and killed it as a bio/chem major, if your final outcome is "any med school period." But if you were the smart kid who went to Harvard, Hopkins, Chicago, Dartmouth, Georgetown, etc., it is exactly that hard to get into med school, because your (hard) curve in each class isn't against a bunch of randos who need to fulfill a science requirement, it's against a bunch of other super bright people who also got into your top undergrad and who also want to become doctors.

Uhh.. As a former "premed" bio major, no, it's not. First off, med school isn't like going to law school, getting into "any med school period" is a good result, full stop. (This is to a lesser extent true with osteopathic schools, but even they're generally fine). Second, even granting that the curve might be hard (grade inflation is rampant at many top schools with Harvard being near the top of that list), you have to take, at most, seven (arguably) difficult pre reqs for med school: Bio 1/2, Gen Chem 1/2, Physics 1/2, Orgo 1. That's it, then you can take whatever you want. Finally, and I realize the MCAT has changed recently, but you generally needed ~30 to be competitive for allopathic schools on the old test, that was the 80th percentile.

Med school is difficult to get into, but it's definitely not that difficult.

Thanks for confirming what I said above. If someone thinks getting an 80th percentile score on a standardized test is hard - they are a FULL BLOWN RETARD. Full stop.

I might have overstated the difficulty of getting into any med school, but I'm not trolling (unlike you - lol that anyone can grind out a med school admissions score on the MCAT unless they are mentally disabled) and I'm not a law school apologist. I'm just saying that it's really really hard to get into med school, and not nearly as hard to get into law school, and I don't think all those people in law school who are like ugh this sucks I should have gone to med school could have hacked it.

[TheSpanishMain]

I'm married and have my own hobbies. Why would I have kids to ruin my life?

I mean, I guess it's some consolation that you won't be passing this outlook on to another generation, so carry on.

I might have overstated the difficulty of getting into any med school, but I'm not trolling (unlike you - lol that anyone can grind out a med school admissions score on the MCAT unless they are mentally disabled) and I'm not a law school apologist. I'm just saying that it's really really hard to get into med school, and not nearly as hard to get into law school, and I don't think all those people in law school who are like ugh this sucks I should have gone to med school could have hacked it.

I'd agree that it is much harder to get into med school than law school, even most good law schools.

[whysoseriousbiglaw]

Where did I go wrong?

Medical school is hard to get into, but it's not THAT hard.

It's not hard if you are a smart kid who took a full-ride scholarship to State University and killed it as a bio/chem major, if your final outcome is "any med school period." But if you were the smart kid who went to Harvard, Hopkins, Chicago, Dartmouth, Georgetown, etc., it is exactly that hard to get into med school, because your (hard) curve in each class isn't against a bunch of randos who need to fulfill a science requirement, it's against a bunch of other super bright people who also got into your top undergrad and who also want to become doctors.

Uhh.. As a former "premed" bio major, no, it's not. First off, med school isn't like going to law school, getting into "any med school period" is a good result, full stop. (This is to a lesser extent true with osteopathic schools, but even they're generally fine). Second, even granting that the curve might be hard (grade inflation is rampant at many top schools with Harvard being near the top of that list), you have to take, at most, seven (arguably) difficult pre reqs for med school: Bio 1/2, Gen Chem 1/2, Physics 1/2, Orgo 1. That's it, then you can take whatever you want. Finally, and I realize the MCAT has changed recently, but you generally needed ~30 to be competitive for allopathic schools on the old test, that was the 80th percentile.

Med school is difficult to get into, but it's definitely not that difficult.

Thanks for confirming what I said above. If someone thinks getting an 80th percentile score on a standardized test is hard - they are a FULL BLOWN RETARD. Full stop.

I might have overstated the difficulty of getting into any med school, but I'm not trolling (unlike you - lol that anyone can grind out a med school admissions score on the MCAT unless they are mentally disabled) and I'm not a law school apologist. I'm just saying that it's really really hard to get into med school, and not nearly as hard to get into law school, and I don't think all those people in law school who are like ugh this sucks I should have gone to med school could have hacked it.

Exaggerating, but not trolling. Anyone with a reasonable LSAT score probably could have grinded it out to a 31+ MCAT score and at least 3.6 GPA.

The guy I know with a 169 LSAT got a perfect verbal score on the MCAT and got into 10+ med schools....

Also getting into "ANY" law school is a joke. Getting into a good law school (like T14 or whatever) is reasonably hard (unless admissions are now much easier than they were when I applied).

[nealric]

Engineering > law or medicine

The hours/school debt in law and medicine are both awful. Simple as that.
Engineering is the sweet spot, especially with a masters. You get funded via a co-op or research gig during school so no debt. Starting salaries in the 80-100 range. Great work hours and insane demand, constant calls from headhunters waiting to poach you right off the bat. If you can math, then become an engineer.

Yes, this many times over. I should have done engineering (I did quant anyway and am good at math) or copped a CPA license.

I'm thinking of going back to do engineering after law....

I'm friends with a lot of engineers. They have their own trials and tribulations. They have to deal with bigcorp layoffs (or startup uncertainty), age bias, and just as much variations of outcome as any other profession. CPAs are the same way. If you like engineering or accounting type work, then one of those may very well be the best path, but people who say one profession is universally better than another are mostly just engaging in grass is greener fantasies.

[whysoseriousbiglaw]

Engineering > law or medicine

The hours/school debt in law and medicine are both awful. Simple as that.
Engineering is the sweet spot, especially with a masters. You get funded via a co-op or research gig during school so no debt. Starting salaries in the 80-100 range. Great work hours and insane demand, constant calls from headhunters waiting to poach you right off the bat. If you can math, then become an engineer.

Yes, this many times over. I should have done engineering (I did quant anyway and am good at math) or copped a CPA license.

I'm thinking of going back to do engineering after law....

I'm friends with a lot of engineers. They have their own trials and tribulations. They have to deal with bigcorp layoffs (or startup uncertainty), age bias, and just as much variations of outcome as any other profession. CPAs are the same way. If you like engineering or accounting type work, then one of those may very well be the best path, but people who say one profession is universally better than another are mostly just engaging in grass is greener fantasies.

Practically my whole family is in engineering and a few in CPA/actuary/CFA, etc. I should have just done that IMO. I also did STEM undergrad already (although not as useful STEM), so it wouldn't have been a big change.

I was an idiot to go to law school. And I definitely wouldn't have done med school either, if I could have a do over in life. I think doing a professional degree with the high cost of education and huge opportunity cost in time, etc. is pretty stupid these days.

My biggest regret in life so far is going to grad school - what a waste of time and money and youth. I will never get my youth back.

[tyroneslothrop1]

My understanding is that its quite difficult to get into med school. I dated a girl who graduated with like a 3.4 from Berkeley (biology major, and its tough to get good grades there). She did an entire post-bac to raise her GPA and then studied for the MCAT. Took it twice and then was accepted to an out of state school. She was no dummy.

For law school, I had a 3.4 from an awful state school (did copious amounts of drugs and was arrested several times), blew away the LSAT, and walked into a T-14.

[whysoseriousbiglaw]

My understanding is that its quite difficult to get into med school. I dated a girl who graduated with like a 3.4 from Berkeley (biology major, and its tough to get good grades there). She did an entire post-bac to raise her GPA and then studied for the MCAT. Took it twice and then was accepted to an out of state school. She was no dummy.

For law school, I had a 3.4 from an awful state school (did copious amounts of drugs and was arrested several times), blew away the LSAT, and walked into a T-14.

The smart ones just do a post bac and don't do premed in college. Postbacs hand out As like candy...I know a few people who went this route - 3.9/4.0 GPAs even though they can't even understand basic calculus.

[dixiecupdrinking]

Anyway, I think it's obvious by now that the short answer to the question posed in the OP is "because they're clinically unable to believe they don't have it worse than everyone else."

[nealric]

Engineering > law or medicine

The hours/school debt in law and medicine are both awful. Simple as that.
Engineering is the sweet spot, especially with a masters. You get funded via a co-op or research gig during school so no debt. Starting salaries in the 80-100 range. Great work hours and insane demand, constant calls from headhunters waiting to poach you right off the bat. If you can math, then become an engineer.

Yes, this many times over. I should have done engineering (I did quant anyway and am good at math) or copped a CPA license.

I'm thinking of going back to do engineering after law....

I'm friends with a lot of engineers. They have their own trials and tribulations. They have to deal with bigcorp layoffs (or startup uncertainty), age bias, and just as much variations of outcome as any other profession. CPAs are the same way. If you like engineering or accounting type work, then one of those may very well be the best path, but people who say one profession is universally better than another are mostly just engaging in grass is greener fantasies.

Practically my whole family is in engineering and a few in CPA/actuary/CFA, etc. I should have just done that IMO. I also did STEM undergrad already (although not as useful STEM), so it wouldn't have been a big change.

I was an idiot to go to law school. And I definitely wouldn't have done med school either, if I could have a do over in life. I think doing a professional degree with the high cost of education and huge opportunity cost in time, etc. is pretty stupid these days.

My biggest regret in life so far is going to grad school - what a waste of time and money and youth. I will never get my youth back.

It sounds like law was the wrong career path for you. It happens. People have different strengths and different things they enjoy. Some people are also just unlucky with where they end up.

[RaceJudicata]

My understanding is that its quite difficult to get into med school. I dated a girl who graduated with like a 3.4 from Berkeley (biology major, and its tough to get good grades there). She did an entire post-bac to raise her GPA and then studied for the MCAT. Took it twice and then was accepted to an out of state school. She was no dummy.

For law school, I had a 3.4 from an awful state school (did copious amounts of drugs and was arrested several times), blew away the LSAT, and walked into a T-14.

Hope C&F goes/went okay for you...

[whysoseriousbiglaw]

Can you clarify why life is over at 50?

Old, body failing, mental decline, wrinkly, ugly, nobody wants to talk to you except other olds. You probably live for your family at that point if you have kids, which sounds like shit to me. I'd rather live for myself.

I don't get the point of sacrificing your youth so you can have more money to enjoy when you're old, ugly and practically immobile.

I have to chuckle at the "piratically immobile" comment. My grandfather climbed all of the 14,000ft peaks in Colorado, the Mexican Volcanos, Kilimanjairo, and went trekking in the Andes in his 60s and 70s. He still travels the world in his 80s. I suppose there's always the possibility life will throw you a curveball and you end up with a chronic disease, but there are plenty of people in their 50s and later who have plenty of physical ability. Those who are "practically immobile" in their 50s were probably that way in their 30s.

Your grandfather is clearly an outlier. My grandparents (the alive ones) are mid to late 80s and they are literally immobile - they have to use walkers, are hunched over, and get shots for arthritis, etc. I don't see the point to living if you have to live like that. My other grandparent died at 95 and was wheelchair bound after she broke her hip.

Maybe 50s is a little earlier to be truly immobile, but a lot of 50 year old Americans are really out of shape, have joint problems, etc.

Aging sucks and I don't see how sacrificing my youth for more money as a middle aged/old fart is worth it. I honestly don't want to live until my 80s or whatever people want to live to these days- there's no point if I'm wheelchair bound, have to use a walker, have arthritis, etc.

[whysoseriousbiglaw]

Engineering > law or medicine

The hours/school debt in law and medicine are both awful. Simple as that.
Engineering is the sweet spot, especially with a masters. You get funded via a co-op or research gig during school so no debt. Starting salaries in the 80-100 range. Great work hours and insane demand, constant calls from headhunters waiting to poach you right off the bat. If you can math, then become an engineer.

Yes, this many times over. I should have done engineering (I did quant anyway and am good at math) or copped a CPA license.

I'm thinking of going back to do engineering after law....

I'm friends with a lot of engineers. They have their own trials and tribulations. They have to deal with bigcorp layoffs (or startup uncertainty), age bias, and just as much variations of outcome as any other profession. CPAs are the same way. If you like engineering or accounting type work, then one of those may very well be the best path, but people who say one profession is universally better than another are mostly just engaging in grass is greener fantasies.

Practically my whole family is in engineering and a few in CPA/actuary/CFA, etc. I should have just done that IMO. I also did STEM undergrad already (although not as useful STEM), so it wouldn't have been a big change.

I was an idiot to go to law school. And I definitely wouldn't have done med school either, if I could have a do over in life. I think doing a professional degree with the high cost of education and huge opportunity cost in time, etc. is pretty stupid these days.

My biggest regret in life so far is going to grad school - what a waste of time and money and youth. I will never get my youth back.

It sounds like law was the wrong career path for you. It happens. People have different strengths and different things they enjoy. Some people are also just unlucky with where they end up.

Yeah, I'm looking to make the change now. It should have been telling when my favorite classes I took in law school were accounting and finance.....

[nealric]

but a lot of 50 year old Americans are really out of shape, have joint problems, etc.

This is true, but the vast majority only because they let themselves go. A lot of what people think of as normal aging is really just atrophy from disuse.

[whysoseriousbiglaw]

but a lot of 50 year old Americans are really out of shape, have joint problems, etc.

This is true, but the vast majority only because they let themselves go. A lot of what people think of as normal aging is really just atrophy from disuse.

It's hard to not let themselves go when they work jobs like biglaw, or work terrible hours as a surgeon, striving forever in long hours for their parasitic children, etc. I guess this also ties in with what I was saying earlier - sacrificing your youth to "enjoy your money when you're old/middle aged" is likely going to backfire to some degree - because at that point you will be a fat, ugly, old, out of shape turd that can't even move properly because of disuse.

A lot of what you do to your body when you're young (not sleep, no exercise, etc.) will have delayed effects and affect you triple-fold when you are middle aged/old. So if you think you're okay pulling all nighters all the time in biglaw in your 20s, it might come back to bite you in your fat, ugly, old ass when you're 50. A lot of diseases like cancer, autoimmune diseases, etc. are triggered by lack of sleep and high stress....just read any of these studies, and you'll see - stress is a key factor in triggering terrible diseases.

[nealric]

but a lot of 50 year old Americans are really out of shape, have joint problems, etc.

This is true, but the vast majority only because they let themselves go. A lot of what people think of as normal aging is really just atrophy from disuse.

It's hard to not let themselves go when they work jobs like biglaw, or work terrible hours as a surgeon, striving forever in long hours for their parasitic children, etc. I guess this also ties in with what I was saying earlier - sacrificing your youth to "enjoy your money when you're old/middle aged" is likely going to backfire to some degree - because at that point you will be a fat, ugly, old, out of shape turd that can't even move properly because of disuse.

A lot of what you do to your body when you're young (not sleep, no exercise, etc.) will have delayed effects and affect you triple-fold when you are middle aged/old. So if you think you're okay pulling all nighters all the time in biglaw in your 20s, it might come back to bite you in your fat, ugly, old ass when you're 50. A lot of diseases like cancer, autoimmune diseases, etc. are triggered by lack of sleep and high stress....just read any of these studies, and you'll see - stress is a key factor in triggering terrible diseases.

I suppose this pessimistic attitude is common among lawyers, but I think it's a common cause of unhappiness. There are plenty of in-shape biglaw people- I was in much better shape when I left biglaw than when I started. No, it's not easy, but nothing in life is.

[Anonymous User]

Engineering > law or medicine

The hours/school debt in law and medicine are both awful. Simple as that.
Engineering is the sweet spot, especially with a masters. You get funded via a co-op or research gig during school so no debt. Starting salaries in the 80-100 range. Great work hours and insane demand, constant calls from headhunters waiting to poach you right off the bat. If you can math, then become an engineer.

Yes, this many times over. I should have done engineering (I did quant anyway and am good at math) or copped a CPA license.

I'm thinking of going back to do engineering after law....

I'm friends with a lot of engineers. They have their own trials and tribulations. They have to deal with bigcorp layoffs (or startup uncertainty), age bias, and just as much variations of outcome as any other profession. CPAs are the same way. If you like engineering or accounting type work, then one of those may very well be the best path, but people who say one profession is universally better than another are mostly just engaging in grass is greener fantasies.

Practically my whole family is in engineering and a few in CPA/actuary/CFA, etc. I should have just done that IMO. I also did STEM undergrad already (although not as useful STEM), so it wouldn't have been a big change.

I was an idiot to go to law school. And I definitely wouldn't have done med school either, if I could have a do over in life. I think doing a professional degree with the high cost of education and huge opportunity cost in time, etc. is pretty stupid these days.

My biggest regret in life so far is going to grad school - what a waste of time and money and youth. I will never get my youth back.

It sounds like law was the wrong career path for you. It happens. People have different strengths and different things they enjoy. Some people are also just unlucky with where they end up.

Yeah, I'm looking to make the change now. It should have been telling when my favorite classes I took in law school were accounting and finance.....

To what? I hate biglaw and law in general like most lawyers and want out too. The JD has become a stain, though, so making a move is more difficult than in the past. Also, I agree with you about accounting, non-banking finance, and tech. The vast majority of my friends in those fields enjoy their jobs. The only friend group that is almost universally miserable is the lawyers.

To the dude with the grandpa flying up mountains into his 80s, did he spend his 20s through 60s desk-ridden and sedentary 12-16 hours per day? Honest question.

[tyroneslothrop1]

I'm a guy, and I suppose afflicted with "toxic masculinity," so I wouldn't actually go for it, but nursing is a good career. I know several nurses and they have it fucking made. Make over a 100K and work like 4 10 hours shifts a week. And its impossible to take the work home with you. You clock out and you done until the next shift.

[nealric]

Engineering > law or medicine

The hours/school debt in law and medicine are both awful. Simple as that.
Engineering is the sweet spot, especially with a masters. You get funded via a co-op or research gig during school so no debt. Starting salaries in the 80-100 range. Great work hours and insane demand, constant calls from headhunters waiting to poach you right off the bat. If you can math, then become an engineer.

Yes, this many times over. I should have done engineering (I did quant anyway and am good at math) or copped a CPA license.

I'm thinking of going back to do engineering after law....

I'm friends with a lot of engineers. They have their own trials and tribulations. They have to deal with bigcorp layoffs (or startup uncertainty), age bias, and just as much variations of outcome as any other profession. CPAs are the same way. If you like engineering or accounting type work, then one of those may very well be the best path, but people who say one profession is universally better than another are mostly just engaging in grass is greener fantasies.

Practically my whole family is in engineering and a few in CPA/actuary/CFA, etc. I should have just done that IMO. I also did STEM undergrad already (although not as useful STEM), so it wouldn't have been a big change.

I was an idiot to go to law school. And I definitely wouldn't have done med school either, if I could have a do over in life. I think doing a professional degree with the high cost of education and huge opportunity cost in time, etc. is pretty stupid these days.

My biggest regret in life so far is going to grad school - what a waste of time and money and youth. I will never get my youth back.

It sounds like law was the wrong career path for you. It happens. People have different strengths and different things they enjoy. Some people are also just unlucky with where they end up.

Yeah, I'm looking to make the change now. It should have been telling when my favorite classes I took in law school were accounting and finance.....

To what? I hate biglaw and law in general like most lawyers and want out too. The JD has become a stain, though, so making a move is more difficult than in the past. Also, I agree with you about accounting, non-banking finance, and tech. The vast majority of my friends in those fields enjoy their jobs. The only friend group that is almost universally miserable is the lawyers.

To the dude with the grandpa flying up mountains into his 80s, did he spend his 20s through 60s desk-ridden and sedentary 12-16 hours per day? Honest question.

He wasn't particularly active until he had his heart attack in his mid 50s. That was his "come to Jesus" moment where he got serious about getting healthy. Besides, very few people maintain hours like that for their whole careers. Even most biglaw partners tone it down a bit from constant 12-16 hour days, and most people leave biglaw for more sane jobs after a few years of grinding.