What the hell is going on Forum

[Anonymous User]

From what I see, the big players (v15 as a general proxy) have been digging deeper. Im not too sure what has been going on in the lower ranked firms that still had substantial classes sizes. I somehow received more callbacks from firms that were above my grade range while striking out on a bunch of firms that I thought I was shoe in.

[Anonymous User]

I accepted a pre-OCI offer at a V10 after doing early interviewing this summer. Repeatedly heard from partners that firms were supremely aggressive in pre-OCI recruiting because they're all in a self-inflicted rat race of who can get candidates to accept first. They said that the problem over the past two years has been that candidates aren't necessarily accepting before OCI, and I'm guessing that firms don't want to over-offer in case their original offerees decide to accept. Personally, I know that my firm held a full interview schedule during OCI but I honestly have only heard of one person getting a callback. Not trying to be all doom and gloom, but people hoarding pre-OCI offers + still going through the process may want to start thinking about declining and opening up spots for their peers...

[Anonymous User]

people hoarding pre-OCI offers + still going through the process may want to start thinking about declining and opening up spots for their peers...

I think this has a lot to do with why things are moving more slowly right now, as opposed to some of the deeper structural issues y'all are getting me worried about.

I can't fault someone for holding onto an offer when they think there's a realistic chance they could end up there this summer, but I'm not sure you can justify holding onto more than 3 even if you're trying to split.

[Anonymous User]

I accepted a pre-OCI offer at a V10 after doing early interviewing this summer. Repeatedly heard from partners that firms were supremely aggressive in pre-OCI recruiting because they're all in a self-inflicted rat race of who can get candidates to accept first. They said that the problem over the past two years has been that candidates aren't necessarily accepting before OCI, and I'm guessing that firms don't want to over-offer in case their original offerees decide to accept. Personally, I know that my firm held a full interview schedule during OCI but I honestly have only heard of one person getting a callback. Not trying to be all doom and gloom, but people hoarding pre-OCI offers + still going through the process may want to start thinking about declining and opening up spots for their peers...

[Anonymous User]

I posted this in another thread but it works here too.

I think at least for DC the callbacks have been to a smaller group of people (at PVD) because of the volume of pre-oci offers. There has never been a year where so many firms have put out so many offers before oci. The career people at my school also agree. There are just less offers open right now than in any other year.

Why do Duke people keep trying to make PVD a thing? PVD is not a thing.

[Anonymous User]

I posted this in another thread but it works here too.

I think at least for DC the callbacks have been to a smaller group of people (at PVD) because of the volume of pre-oci offers. There has never been a year where so many firms have put out so many offers before oci. The career people at my school also agree. There are just less offers open right now than in any other year.

Why do Duke people keep trying to make PVD a thing? PVD is not a thing.

Well I'm not at Duke so whatever but okay I'll bite. Wasn't the ranking penn uva/Duke/Berkeley tied afterwards? Hence pvd which I picked up from someone else on this website. Whatever I'm down dropping Duke from that.

[Anonymous User]

I posted this in another thread but it works here too.

I think at least for DC the callbacks have been to a smaller group of people (at PVD) because of the volume of pre-oci offers. There has never been a year where so many firms have put out so many offers before oci. The career people at my school also agree. There are just less offers open right now than in any other year.

Why do Duke people keep trying to make PVD a thing? PVD is not a thing.

Well I'm not at Duke so whatever but okay I'll bite. Wasn't the ranking penn uva/Duke/Berkeley tied afterwards? Hence pvd which I picked up from someone else on this website. Whatever I'm down dropping Duke from that.

Lol I'm just messing. The rankings are generally BS, but to the extent there are sub-tiers, I've only ever seen MVPB.

[bwh8813]

Honestly, it wouldn't surprise me if a lot of firms move to smaller summer classes with 3L hiring in specific practice areas to fill in the gaps. This puts the firms less at risk, and with the number of law grads, the firms can still probably find good candidates 3L year.

I mass-mailed during 3L last year and was explicitly told by four V30 firms that I had CBs with, and ultimately offers from, that they were doing just this. Small sample-size, but I was a little surprised because what seemed like a greater interest in 3L hiring was contrary to what I'd been lead to believe.

Good luck to you all. It could also be that firms are also slowing the CB process to not have too many offers outstanding at a time.

[WinSome]

Honestly, it wouldn't surprise me if a lot of firms move to smaller summer classes with 3L hiring in specific practice areas to fill in the gaps. This puts the firms less at risk, and with the number of law grads, the firms can still probably find good candidates 3L year.

I mass-mailed during 3L last year and was explicitly told by four V30 firms that I had CBs with, and ultimately offers from, that they were doing just this. Small sample-size, but I was a little surprised because what seemed like a greater interest in 3L hiring was contrary to what I'd been lead to believe.

Good luck to you all. It could also be that firms are also slowing the CB process to not have too many offers outstanding at a time.

Yeah. I was also hired as a 3L last year after striking out 2L and know of a couple other 3L hires last year.

[RaceJudicata]

Optimistic view: The folks w/ a lot of callbacks will get offers and will have to decline them --> those declined offers may result in some late call backs.

[Anonymous User]

OCI is a huge shit show at my school. We had two kids transfer out, but the school let 20 kids in. Last LST report gave my school around a 40% BL+FC, but the only kids I see at OCI are the same 30 kids (little over 10% of the class) with a good 10 being transfers. I expect some mad complaining soon.

These numbers sound like a WUSTL, Emory, or ND...I wonder if the transfers are succeeding because they are coming home/bidding on their home markets (e.g. St. Louis, Atlanta, Close by Midwest). Ties matter BIG TIME IMO outside of basically just NYC.

[Anonymous User]

Personally at my school the Career office is killing people. Some people with top grades took 30+ screeners thru programs, later decided they didn't want some of the lower ranked firms, but couldn't give up their interview slots b/c they weren't allowed so they had to go through 5-10 interviews with offices they will never accept but were callbacked and will prolly be offered from.

[Anonymous User]

it felt like 1L summers were up in my secondary tx market but idk if that's really true. im pretty confident that sidley dallas has made return offers to 3 1L summers. it's a small office so thats a big percentage of their class

1L summers had to be up at the regional flagship T1 school I went to before I transferred. It's in a fairly big legal market. A decent amount of the class had 1L SAs that are sometimes thought of as "unicorn" on this board.

[Anonymous User]

it felt like 1L summers were up in my secondary tx market but idk if that's really true. im pretty confident that sidley dallas has made return offers to 3 1L summers. it's a small office so thats a big percentage of their class

1L summers had to be up at the regional flagship T1 school I went to before I transferred. It's in a fairly big legal market. A decent amount of the class had 1L SAs that are sometimes thought of as "unicorn" on this board.

This, a surprising number of 1ls were working at firm at my T25 this summer...at least 1/5 of the class it seemed.

[Anonymous User]

Personally at my school the Career office is killing people. Some people with top grades took 30+ screeners thru programs, later decided they didn't want some of the lower ranked firms, but couldn't give up their interview slots b/c they weren't allowed so they had to go through 5-10 interviews with offices they will never accept but were callbacked and will prolly be offered from.

This. I don't understand the rationale the Career Office has with OCI. They seem intent on telling the class X% doesn't get jobs through OCI and that's OK!!

I think some schools could change a 40-50% of the class getting jobs through OCI to 60-70% (or more), if they matched people a little bit better to grade cut-offs/ties. Having someone who is intent on practicing in Chicago, from CHI but having a screener in Kansas City because they rightfully bid everything is kind of lame. Esp. if they have like 15-20 CHI screeners and they may want to give up a KC screener.

Then it seems like it's forbidden/discouraged passively aggressively by Career Services for someone who makes a grade cutoff at a firm and may have some ties to go around OCI and contact the employer directly if not selected. This is esp. the case if a big firm is coming to campus and someone is interested in a secondary market office, while the firm is primarily interviewing for NYC/CHI/LA etc... This might be a successful method honestly and secondary offices generally have lower grade cutoffs.

I don't really even consider myself someone hurt by OCI the way it is, but some of the class could definitely be helped out by changing stuff around.

[Anonymous User]

I posted this in another thread but it works here too.

I think at least for DC the callbacks have been to a smaller group of people (at PVD) because of the volume of pre-oci offers. There has never been a year where so many firms have put out so many offers before oci. The career people at my school also agree. There are just less offers open right now than in any other year.

Why do Duke people keep trying to make PVD a thing? PVD is not a thing.

From someone at Duke, I think it's because our employment numbers/placement look a lot more similar to Michigan/UVA than Georgetown. Duke also bounces in and out of the T10 depending on the year. The tiers are stupid, but I honestly don't know where to place my own school

[Anonymous User]

it felt like 1L summers were up in my secondary tx market but idk if that's really true. im pretty confident that sidley dallas has made return offers to 3 1L summers. it's a small office so thats a big percentage of their class

1L summers had to be up at the regional flagship T1 school I went to before I transferred. It's in a fairly big legal market. A decent amount of the class had 1L SAs that are sometimes thought of as "unicorn" on this board.

This, a surprising number of 1ls were working at firm at my T25 this summer...at least 1/5 of the class it seemed.

In a decent economy, why wouldn't firms offer big time on 1Ls. Esp. if you're not V50 firms. The firms essentially:

1. Grab the students with the best grades.
2. Over-pull their firm "prestige" for candiates b/c it's hard for a 1L to turn down a paycheck.
3. Better train their new FT associates if they keep them for two summers. (in terms of culture, relationships, work norms).
4. Potentially create some loyalty/bonds that will keep the "shining stars" from trying to trade up firms during 2L OCI.
5. 1Ls who are good legal writers are probably just as useful as 2L for litigation/most SA assignments. Do some research via Westlaw and type a memo.

I'm not seeing a ton of downsides besides SA's bolting for greener pastures and of course the salary aspect. Honestly, I bet some firms could offer 1L SA's like 75% of a 2L SA salary and they'd still get great candidates if that's a concern.

[Anonymous User]

I agree things have looked more shitshowy than usual at OCI.

-Maybe firms made too many pre-oci offers?
-Brexit?
-180K?
-Maybe this was the class that got into law school with the lowest LSAT, GPA average, work-experience, personality in the last decade and are therefore not desirable to law firms in general. Maybe schools are finally paying for their blind acceptances purely based on numbers.

Who knows?

[jbagelboy]

-Maybe this was the class that got into law school with the lowest LSAT, GPA average, work-experience, personality in the last decade and are therefore not desirable to law firms in general. Maybe schools are finally paying for their blind acceptances purely based on numbers.

is this true?

[Nebby]

-Maybe this was the class that got into law school with the lowest LSAT, GPA average, work-experience, personality in the last decade and are therefore not desirable to law firms in general. Maybe schools are finally paying for their blind acceptances purely based on numbers.

is this true?

I don't think so but obviously this anon has other personal issues to work out

[oblig.lawl.ref]

My feeling is (a) duke is not a peer school with M/V/P/B in the historical rankings (if you look back that is) and we should stop doing PVD and (b) corporate work has actually been slower than it was in the years prior, especially so in TX and SV but also elsewhere (though I think it may be picking back up). Those two things may lead to a dip in recruiting. Idk how lit has been doing but my understanding is it's kinda been deflating since like 2011 or something, same with BK. I'm pretty sure I heard law firm revenues were down in the first halfish of the year, so maybe they're reacting to that slightly.

Just as an anecdote I'm at a CA firm with large class sizes and we did very little pre-oci-ing. Most of our oci-ing has come in the regular time. Understand it seems many of the V15s went a different route.

[malibustacy]

-Maybe this was the class that got into law school with the lowest LSAT, GPA average, work-experience, personality in the last decade and are therefore not desirable to law firms in general. Maybe schools are finally paying for their blind acceptances purely based on numbers.

is this true?

I don't think so but obviously this anon has other personal issues to work out

Think what you want, this is as low LSAT/GPA numbers have been in years. Student quality has correspondingly fell over that time. Not so dramatically in the T14 necessarily, but significantly in lower ranked schools.

Even look at T14 GULC as an example.
http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/gulc/2015/

They've let in every warm body with a 167+ this past year. To compensate, they've shored up the class with a slightly higher GPA median. Personally I've seen people admitted from barely accredited undergraduate institutions that give out A+'s like candy.

When 95% of admissions so acutely is based off a 100 question test and inflated GPAs from poppycock institutions, you're gonna get plenty of bad apples no self-respecting law firm is going to pay $180,000 to.

[Toni V]

For those concerned about the recent lockstep raises. Is this a big deal for a V50? 600 associates making an extra $20K at a firm with $1B income = 1.2% added expense.

[oblig.lawl.ref]

-Maybe this was the class that got into law school with the lowest LSAT, GPA average, work-experience, personality in the last decade and are therefore not desirable to law firms in general. Maybe schools are finally paying for their blind acceptances purely based on numbers.

is this true?

I don't think so but obviously this anon has other personal issues to work out

Think what you want, this is as low LSAT/GPA numbers have been in years. Student quality has correspondingly fell over that time. Not so dramatically in the T14 necessarily, but significantly in lower ranked schools.

Even look at T14 GULC as an example.
http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/gulc/2015/

They've let in every warm body with a 167+ this past year. To compensate, they've shored up the class with a slightly higher GPA median. Personally I've seen people admitted from barely accredited undergraduate institutions that give out A+'s like candy.

When 95% of admissions so acutely is based off a 100 question test and inflated GPAs from poppycock institutions, you're gonna get plenty of bad apples no self-respecting law firm is going to pay $180,000 to.

But more importantly, I seriously doubt firms and their hiring and managing committees are currently discussing this and seriously making decisions based on it.

[Anonymous User]

Yea this oci season seems fucked m compared to the past 2 yrs

Wait, how so? Are there less offers this year?

Idk I probably spoke too soon cause there's another month and a half of solid recruiting left but from my observations the struggle is real at a bunch of schools

Seconding. I've got a bunch of friends all throughout the T14 and it's pretty feast-or-famine, it sounds like.

+1. all of my friends either have 8+ CBs or none. It's kind of ridiculous.

This is the same thing that's happening to everyone I know and I'm at Harvard. This is insane.