Foreign Law Degree + US LLM (T15-20 Top 5%) = BigLaw w/o JD? Forum

[AnonCounsel]

Backed out. Scared of the ignorance amongst JDs.

[willmarriesann]

lol. buddy.

sorry but i hope you know that LLMs get a grade boost right at almost all the law schools...

and.. if you didn't make it at the top 3 llms.. i'm sorry bro..

You don't even need LSAT scores to get in to LLMs.

Not to be harsh but I'm just telling you so you know.

user outed for anon abuse

[Anonymous User]

lol. buddy.

sorry but i hope you know that LLMs get a grade boost right at almost all the law schools...

and.. if you didn't make it at the top 3 llms.. i'm sorry bro..

You don't even need LSAT scores to get in to LLMs.

Not to be harsh but I'm just telling you so you know.

[Anonymous User]

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[mrs.miawallace]

If you are taking 1L classes, I believe LLM are ranked among LLMs. It's simply not right for LLMs to curve among the JDs, I believe in some schools and some classes (stanford corp. a long time ago), a profession gave masters an extra hour for the exam, which was scolded and pushed back by the school and students. "beating 95% of the JD student" really might be in your head-especially when you said you are T20-30, if your school takes a big LLM class, there is no chance you are in the JD curve. It's like putting the 300m racers and 1500mm racers together- i understand the analogy here might come off as condescending, my point being those are two different programs.

I've never seen a foriegn LLM get NYC biglaw unless you are in tax, or you had great pull in your legal career already in your country- in any event, this kind of employment prospect depends on luck, rather than your credentials.

[A. Nony Mouse]

Since schools generally publish grade distributions for each course, I would imagine the OP has perfectly sound information about where they fell in their classes.

Sorry, OP, I don't have any info about whether you would get biglaw.

[mrs.miawallace]

Since schools generally publish grade distributions for each course, I would imagine the OP has perfectly sound information about where they fell in their classes.

Sorry, OP, I don't have any info about whether you would get biglaw.

yo schools generally publish grade distribution for each course? wow

[A. Nony Mouse]

Since schools generally publish grade distributions for each course, I would imagine the OP has perfectly sound information about where they fell in their classes.

Sorry, OP, I don't have any info about whether you would get biglaw.

yo schools generally publish grade distribution for each course? wow

Well, mine did, anyway - I'm pretty sure it's not unusual.

[Anonymous User]

If you are taking 1L classes, I believe LLM are ranked among LLMs. It's simply not right for LLMs to curve among the JDs, I believe in some schools and some classes (stanford corp. a long time ago), a profession gave masters an extra hour for the exam, which was scolded and pushed back by the school and students. "beating 95% of the JD student" really might be in your head-especially when you said you are T20-30, if your school takes a big LLM class, there is no chance you are in the JD curve. It's like putting the 300m racers and 1500mm racers together- i understand the analogy here might come off as condescending, my point being those are two different programs.

I've never seen a foriegn LLM get NYC biglaw unless you are in tax, or you had great pull in your legal career already in your country- in any event, this kind of employment prospect depends on luck, rather than your credentials.

.

[Anonymous User]

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[Anonymous User]

Since schools generally publish grade distributions for each course, I would imagine the OP has perfectly sound information about where they fell in their classes.

Sorry, OP, I don't have any info about whether you would get biglaw.

Thank you. You are amongst the majority of JDs who understand. Sorry if any offence was called in setting straight the minority of JDs in the other posts. You find those people in every country.

[Anonymous User]

If you are taking 1L classes, I believe LLM are ranked among LLMs. It's simply not right for LLMs to curve among the JDs, I believe in some schools and some classes (stanford corp. a long time ago), a profession gave masters an extra hour for the exam, which was scolded and pushed back by the school and students. "beating 95% of the JD student" really might be in your head-especially when you said you are T20-30, if your school takes a big LLM class, there is no chance you are in the JD curve. It's like putting the 300m racers and 1500mm racers together- i understand the analogy here might come off as condescending, my point being those are two different programs.

I've never seen a foriegn LLM get NYC biglaw unless you are in tax, or you had great pull in your legal career already in your country- in any event, this kind of employment prospect depends on luck, rather than your credentials.

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[ClubberLang]

Op, the only bubble that is going to burst is yours when you don't get biglaw. You sound like a jerk.

[Anonymous User]

Op, the only bubble that is going to burst is yours when you don't get biglaw. You sound like a jerk.

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[LaLiLuLeLo]

Ah yes, everyone else is wrong, not OP.

[Anonymous User]

Ah yes, everyone else is wrong, not OP.

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[ClubberLang]

Ah yes, everyone else is wrong, not OP.

I am not saying I will not get BigLaw. Simply stating that LLMs can (amazingly so) beat JDs. The horror.

Non-americans beating Americans? Can it be?

This forum is full of Trump supporters. God help you all.

I'm not sure our country can take all the beatings we're getting from foreign LLM students. Please stop the bleeding and return home.

[Anonymous User]

Ah yes, everyone else is wrong, not OP.

I am not saying I will not get BigLaw. Simply stating that LLMs can (amazingly so) beat JDs. The horror.

Non-americans beating Americans? Can it be?

This forum is full of Trump supporters. God help you all.

I'm not sure our country can take all the beatings we're getting from foreign LLM students. Please stop the bleeding and return home.

Please never leave the US. You won't be able to cope.

[Anonymous User]

BA/JDs and LLB/LLMs (foreign) are different skill sets/backgrounds. Don't get too caught up in comparing the two.

BA/JDs are usually only fluent in English and are only familiar/specialized in US law.

LLB/LLMS (foreign) are usually fluent in more than one language and familiar with more than one legal system, yet not as specialized in US law.
(Such individuals specialize in the legal system of their home country, but have some knowledge/exposure to US law)

Both skill-sets have different strengths/weaknesses in different markets.

In the US, the JDs tend to be the big bros; outside of the US, the LLB/LLMs tend to be the big bros.

Of course, based on the particular individual, these tendencies can vary.

In any case, we are all bros, and alum of the same institutions, so we can share respect and work together. Keep the peace, bros~

GL on your job search OP, and don't let the opinions on TLS solely decide the course of action you take.

[A. Nony Mouse]

Op, the only bubble that is going to burst is yours when you don't get biglaw. You sound like a jerk.

To be fair, they asked a perfectly reasonable question and gave their stats as people here do all the time, and people immediately jumped in with LLM HAHAHAHAHA, so it's not undeserved.

[LaLiLuLeLo]

Op, the only bubble that is going to burst is yours when you don't get biglaw. You sound like a jerk.

To be fair, they asked a perfectly reasonable question and gave their stats as people here do all the time, and people immediately jumped in with LLM HAHAHAHAHA, so it's not undeserved.

True, but OP also dialed it up to 10 right away. Kind of odd to bash American JDs as arrogant (future colleagues, after all) and label everyone as Trump supporters. With that mentality I have no idea why you'd even want to work in US biglaw.

[Anonymous User]

BA/JDs and LLB/LLMs (foreign) are different skill sets/backgrounds. Don't get too caught up in comparing the two.

BA/JDs are usually only fluent in English and are only familiar/specialized in US law.

LLB/LLMS (foreign) are usually fluent in more than one language and familiar with more than one legal system, yet not as specialized in US law.
(Such individuals specialize in the legal system of their home country, but have some knowledge/exposure to US law)

Both skill-sets have different strengths/weaknesses in different markets.

In the US, the JDs tend to be the big bros; outside of the US, the LLB/LLMs tend to be the big bros.

Of course, based on the particular individual, these tendencies can vary.

In any case, we are all bros, and alum of the same institutions, so we can share respect and work together. Keep the peace, bros~

GL on your job search OP, and don't let the opinions on TLS solely decide the course of action you take.

All true, except LLB = BA, and LLB also = JD.

[JoeySkoko]

for what its worth ... and i've just stumbled onto this thread in a distraction from my bar study hell, i'm a foreign LLM who is just finished his year LLM. I am starting at "Big Law" in litigation here in NYC in September.

So it does / can happen. Really easy if you're M&A / Corporate, harder if you are like me and do patent / IP lit. But possible.

and, fyi i was graded on a curve with the JDs (all 2nd and 3rd year subjects). T6.

[Anonymous User]

OP:

It is true that at many schools, LLMs are graded on a curve along with the JD students. Specifically, at CLS/NYU, I know this to be the case. However, the intensity and brutality of the curve at the most prestigious law schools is vastly different in 1L versus in 2L and 3L. There are quite a few people at the most reputable law firms who did not graduate with any honors notation (e.g., top 40% at HLS; top 25% at NYU) but presumably had extremely strong resumes post 1L in order to get hired. This lack of honors at graduation reveals that they didn't do anything to fight for the best grades during 2L and 3L. Firms understand this and give minimal care to 2L and 3L grades.

Let me give you an example of the converse: I had good grades post 1L, but I didn't have excellent grades that would land me a firm like WLRK. After 2L and 3L, however, my grades were in range for WLRK. And you know what WLRK says when I send them my resume? They won't even take a peek at my resume because the 2L and 3L grades are essentially meaningless to them since the curve is compromised. Getting an A in a non-core 1L class on the forced JD curve doesn't impress anyone.

The JDs at every school are graded on a forced 1L curve. At the top schools, the class is composed of people who got a top 1-2% score on an exam taken by ambitious, college-educated Americans purusing higher study in law.* The exam is four hours long with just a 10 minute break, requires no substantive knowledge of law, and tests for analytical capacity and reading comprehension on a level unheard of in Western Europe. Moreover, American students often graduated from prestigious undergraduate programs and often are indebting themselves to the tune of $300,000 to attend law school. These students are motivated and 1L is a battle to the death for them. For 95% of private-sector hiring decisions out of law school, 1L is all that matters.

As a final note, there are NO LLMs allowed to take 1L classes, lest their presence compromise the integrity of the curve. The thing common to every law school in America is that 1L classes are on a separate curve from the LLM students, even in the off chance that they are allowed to sit in on the classes and are graded in them. Often the actual curve is a different one altogether than for 2L and 3L.

Hope that helps.

* Note how this is in contradistinction to the system in, for example, the United Kingdom. Admission to to the undergraduate programs at Oxbridge/LSE is generally much less competitive than for Ivy and Ivy-caliber schools. (There are limited exceptions to this.) Moreover, standardized test scores evaluated by admissions committees in the UK are only done by subject; as such, A-levels and GCSEs are much more akin to AP exams than anything American kids have to go through. You can debate the utility of standardized tests that test for sheer brainpower and ability to work under severely time pressured conditions all you want — and such debates are regularly had in the US — but studies do indicate that they are the most reliable thing we have to go by in determining future success.

[AnonCounsel]

OP:

It is true that at many schools, LLMs are graded on a curve along with the JD students. Specifically, at CLS/NYU, I know this to be the case. However, the intensity and brutality of the curve at the most prestigious law schools is vastly different in 1L versus in 2L and 3L. There are quite a few people at the most reputable law firms who did not graduate with any honors notation (e.g., top 40% at HLS; top 25% at NYU) but presumably had extremely strong resumes post 1L in order to get hired. This lack of honors at graduation reveals that they didn't do anything to fight for the best grades during 2L and 3L. Firms understand this and don't care about 2L and 3L grades.

Let me give you an example of the converse: I had good grades post 1L, but I didn't have excellent grades that would land me a firm like WLRK. After 2L and 3L, however, my grades were in range for WLRK. And you know what WLRK says when I send them my resume? They won't even take a peek at my resume because the 2L and 3L grades are essentially meaningless.

The JDs at every school are graded on a forced 1L curve. At the top schools, the class is composed of people who got a top 1-2% score on an exam taken by ambitious, college-educated Americans purusing higher study in law. They often graduated from prestigious undergraduate programs and often are indebting themselves to the tune of $300,000. These students are motivated and 1L is a battle to the death for them. For 98% of hiring decisions in the United States, 1L is more or less all that matters. Oh, and there are NO LLMs allowed to take these classes, lest it would compromise the integrity of the curve. The thing common to every law school in America is that 1L classes are on a separate curve from the LLM students Often it is a different curve altogether than for 2L and 3L.

Hope that helps.

.