3L OCI Thread. Forum

[Anonymous User]

I think the #1 biggest concern for firms that are interviewing 3Ls who summered elsewhere is whether the person was no-offered. I did quite a few callbacks and it came up in almost every interview. Having it on my resume did two things: (1) it addressed the elephant in the room when the firm was deciding whether to interview me based on my resume/transcript; and (2) it let the interviewer say "so I see you got an offer to return, what prompted you to look around?" rather than "so did you get an offer to return (skeptically)?" Basically, it helped me start the interviews off on the right foot.

Hope that helps.

What if someone did FedGov for a summer? Most FedGov agencies/depts will hire 2L summer interns but basically require 5+ years out for "entry level" positions, outside of the few who do Honors.

1. If my school & 2L grades are such that, on those bases alone, I won't be laughed out of the room, should I write in cover letters to HR/emails to alumni partners that "[current summer employer] doesn't hire straight out of law school" in order to preempt the concern that I'm looking because my current summer employer won't hire me for an entry-level position?

2. Quite the contrary, if my current supervisors have commended the job I've done, would you suggest I somehow ask my ex-biglaw supervisors to recommend me to their former biglaw colleagues?

[Anonymous User]

I think the #1 biggest concern for firms that are interviewing 3Ls who summered elsewhere is whether the person was no-offered. I did quite a few callbacks and it came up in almost every interview. Having it on my resume did two things: (1) it addressed the elephant in the room when the firm was deciding whether to interview me based on my resume/transcript; and (2) it let the interviewer say "so I see you got an offer to return, what prompted you to look around?" rather than "so did you get an offer to return (skeptically)?" Basically, it helped me start the interviews off on the right foot.

Hope that helps.

What if someone did FedGov for a summer? Most FedGov agencies/depts will hire 2L summer interns but basically require 5+ years out for "entry level" positions, outside of the few who do Honors.

1. If my school & 2L grades are such that, on those bases alone, I won't be laughed out of the room, should I write in cover letters to HR/emails to alumni partners that "[current summer employer] doesn't hire straight out of law school" in order to preempt the concern that I'm looking because my current summer employer won't hire me for an entry-level position?

2. Quite the contrary, if my current supervisors have commended the job I've done, would you suggest I somehow ask my ex-biglaw supervisors to recommend me to their former biglaw colleagues?

By "no offer-ed," I mean the person was a summer associate another big law firm that traditionally gives most/all of its SAs post-grad offers, and did not receive one. Firms view this as a red flag, because it means the other firm worked with the person and passed. (But on the other hand, if the person was an SA and got an offer, it's viewed as a huge plus because they've been "pre-vetted" by the other firm).

You won't be viewed the same. Firms know Fed gov usually doesn't hire out of law school, so they won't hold it against you. So, do not mention this in your cover letter.

Edit: In regard to #2, just ask them to serve as a reference and have a list of your references ready in case firms ask (they probably won't). Anything else would be weird and unhelpful. However, if any of your co-workers have worked at a specific firm your targeting, and they left on good terms, having them forward your materials to someone they know there could be a huge boost for you. I got most of my 3L callbacks by having my friends who summered at firms forward my stuff to their firm's recruiter, along with a short recommendation (i.e. "I think he/she would be a great fit here").

[Anonymous User]

You won't be viewed the same. Firms know Fed gov usually doesn't hire out of law school, so they won't hold it against you. So, do not mention this in your cover letter.

Edit: In regard to #2, just ask them to serve as a reference and have a list of your references ready in case firms ask (they probably won't). Anything else would be weird and unhelpful. However, if any of your co-workers have worked at a specific firm your targeting, and they left on good terms, having them forward your materials to someone they know there could be a huge boost for you. I got most of my 3L callbacks by having my friends who summered at firms forward my stuff to their firm's recruiter, along with a short recommendation (i.e. "I think he/she would be a great fit here").

Thanks. Well in the not so distant past, the Feds did hire out of LS. Can I really count on some HR person, who'll do the initial resume screen, to know that as a rule Feds don't hire straight out?

#2:

Anything else would be weird and unhelpful. However, if any of your co-workers have worked at a specific firm your targeting, and they left on good terms, having them forward your materials to someone they know there

The bolded is basically what I'm thinking of asking my supervisors, who were V10 associates about a decade ago. Even if none of their contemporaries are still at those firms, they're still alums of my school (one of the ones that's commonly chided as a biglaw factory). As such, they might know alums at those firms.

Of course, I also know classmates/friends who are currently 2LSAs at those firms, but my job predicament isn't one of "I'm already in a good place," so I don't want to embarrass myself or them if my intern supervisors, who already know about my situation, can pass on my materials to the same effect (or better) than if I had asked one of 100+ 2LSAs.

[Anonymous User]

nvm

[meat tornado]

Can someone with concrete 3L OCI data points PM me?

[Anonymous User]

You won't be viewed the same. Firms know Fed gov usually doesn't hire out of law school, so they won't hold it against you. So, do not mention this in your cover letter.

Edit: In regard to #2, just ask them to serve as a reference and have a list of your references ready in case firms ask (they probably won't). Anything else would be weird and unhelpful. However, if any of your co-workers have worked at a specific firm your targeting, and they left on good terms, having them forward your materials to someone they know there could be a huge boost for you. I got most of my 3L callbacks by having my friends who summered at firms forward my stuff to their firm's recruiter, along with a short recommendation (i.e. "I think he/she would be a great fit here").

Thanks. Well in the not so distant past, the Feds did hire out of LS. Can I really count on some HR person, who'll do the initial resume screen, to know that as a rule Feds don't hire straight out?

#2:

Anything else would be weird and unhelpful. However, if any of your co-workers have worked at a specific firm your targeting, and they left on good terms, having them forward your materials to someone they know there

The bolded is basically what I'm thinking of asking my supervisors, who were V10 associates about a decade ago. Even if none of their contemporaries are still at those firms, they're still alums of my school (one of the ones that's commonly chided as a biglaw factory). As such, they might know alums at those firms.

Of course, I also know classmates/friends who are currently 2LSAs at those firms, but my job predicament isn't one of "I'm already in a good place," so I don't want to embarrass myself or them if my intern supervisors, who already know about my situation, can pass on my materials to the same effect (or better) than if I had asked one of 100+ 2LSAs.

Can you really rely on "some HR person?" Umm.... yes. That "HR person" is a full-time professional legal recruiter, whose entire job is to pull desirable candidates's resumes/transcripts from a bottomless pile, and hand them to the firm's hiring committee. Their job performance is evaluated on their ability to do this - they know what they're doing. The hiring committee, which consists of partners & associates, is the one that actually decides who to interview.

Look, here's the rough 3L hiring pecking order for big firms - there are ways to give yourself a boost (i.e. connections), but I think this generally holds true pretty much everywhere:

Had a Biglaw SA & got offer ("pre-vetted") >>>>>>>>>> No Biglaw SA ("question mark") >>>>>>>>> Had Biglaw SA but got no-offered ("red flag")

With regard to #2: Have your friends who SA'd at firms forward your materials to the recruiter. The reason for this is that they will personally know the recruiter, which will have a much bigger impact. Recruiting cares WAY more about using personal connections to find someone who "fits" because they and the hiring committee will judge your potential ability based on your stats (whether that makes sense is a different conversation). To be frank, they aren't going to give much credence to the evaluation of your summer supervisor unless they know that person.

[Anonymous User]

Second the above - as someone without biglaw during 2L, mass-mailing via friends/connections made all the difference.

[Anonymous User]

1. Would HR really "know" or value the opinion of one of 100+ 2LSAs who might only know the 3L applicant from nights out on the town?

2. Wouldn't going through friends require outting yourself as someone who couldn't cut it, which is obv something that I'd rather keep to myself until it's resolved?

3. Say I bite the bullet and decide to fess up to friends. Wouldn't they be more concerned with locking down their own FT offers than with helping a friend whom they (may have) held in high esteem only to see that image shattered?

4. Basically, I'm thinking that my summer supervisors can attest to culture fit, ability to handle a suit & tie business, work products etc. My friends who are currently 2LSAs at those firms may know what came out of truth-or-dare sessions and how many drinks I can hold down, but not my work product, work ethic, etc.

Is it as easy as asking them to FWD: my resume to HR? That's the trick?

To be frank, they aren't going to give much credence to the evaluation of your summer supervisor unless they know that person.

I get that, but it's not like my summer supervisors are ambulance chasers. They were "alums" of these biglaw firms, which isn't nothing, at least insofar as the firms' talk about how much they care about their alumni is more than fluff.

[Anonymous User]

Has anyone heard back from Kirkland Chicago?

[Anonymous User]

Silence here from Kirkland. Sent my materials early July.

[Anonymous User]

Silence here from Kirkland. Sent my materials early July.

Mid-July here, also radio silence

[Anonymous User]

Firm doesn't give offers for a few weeks. Do I indicate that on the resume or no?

[Anonymous User]

1. Would HR really "know" or value the opinion of one of 100+ 2LSAs who might only know the 3L applicant from nights out on the town?

2. Wouldn't going through friends require outting yourself as someone who couldn't cut it, which is obv something that I'd rather keep to myself until it's resolved?

3. Say I bite the bullet and decide to fess up to friends. Wouldn't they be more concerned with locking down their own FT offers than with helping a friend whom they (may have) held in high esteem only to see that image shattered?

4. Basically, I'm thinking that my summer supervisors can attest to culture fit, ability to handle a suit & tie business, work products etc. My friends who are currently 2LSAs at those firms may know what came out of truth-or-dare sessions and how many drinks I can hold down, but not my work product, work ethic, etc.

Is it as easy as asking them to FWD: my resume to HR? That's the trick?

To be frank, they aren't going to give much credence to the evaluation of your summer supervisor unless they know that person.

I get that, but it's not like my summer supervisors are ambulance chasers. They were "alums" of these biglaw firms, which isn't nothing, at least insofar as the firms' talk about how much they care about their alumni is more than fluff.

Wow, this response is pretty revealing. I'm trying to help you, but it appears that you'll continue to stubbornly assert your own view and are just looking for validation. I'm not going to give it to you, and at this point, I'm kinda losing patience for you so this will be my last reply.

1. HR will trust the opinion of their SAs, because the SAs are the type of people the firm is looking for (that's why they were hired), will be the ones who will have to work with you, and are best placed to comment on whether you'd fit in because they know you on a personal level (i.e. from drinking with you). They aren't using the SA's opinions to determine your competence - that's what your stats are for. The SAs are commenting on whether your personality fits in with the firm culture.

2. You've got serious insecurity issues here and I don't know what else to tell you that I haven't already. Your friends who were SAs are your single best bet at getting an interview. If they are actually your friends, they already know you didn't have an SA (unless you lied to them). Everyone knows fed gov doesn't hire straight out of law school, except in very rare circumstances. It's presumed. Asking your friends to forward your stuff will not cause them to think you "couldn't cut it."

3. Let your friends be the judge of whether they are willing to vouch for you. Unless you are truly an asshole, it really won't reflect badly on them if you don't end up getting hired. If you do get hired, no one will remember who recommended you if you turn out to be a fuck up.

4. As I said before, the firms are looking for whether you'd fit in, which is what an SA recommendation speaks to. In other words, whether or not you're an asshole (and how many drinks you can hold down). A good recommendation regarding your "work product" from a supervisor won't save you from poor stats. Seriously, they aren't going to judge your potential competence as a firm lawyer based on the 10 weeks you spent at a government job. Sorry. However, a good recommendation from an SA will get your name pulled out of the pile of randos and get your stats actually looked at.

5. Yes, you just ask them to forward your stuff to the recruiter. You can also be a human, and ask them about their experience. Ya know, like "hey how was your summer at X firm? Wow that sounds great! I'm looking around right now - would you mind passing my stuff along to recruiting?"

[Anonymous User]

Should I wait until I finish my summer to send my resume, or do it now? I am worried that HR will contact my current firm and it will be awkward and will hurt my chance to get an offer.

[Anonymous User]

How long are people making their cover letters? In email or out? I've asked a few friends to send a recommendation to their recruiting department.

[Anonymous User]

for those looking to move, how do you reach out to potential firms? presumably you don't just ask your contacts/alums for jobs, but do you ask to be put in contact with a recruiter? whether the firm is hiring in that office/practice group? how does the initial reach out change for firms you received offers from through OCI?

[Anonymous User]

Any movement on Kirkland Chi or Skadden NYC?

[Anonymous User]

Any other firms looking?

[Anonymous User]

I received a post-grad offer from my 2L SA firm. How should I indicate this on my resume (if I should at all)?

I'm the anon from above who "traded up" as a 3L and talked about the offer timelines. Here's what I did, which I think worked really well:

Update your resume with your summer firm and include specific descriptions of what you actually did during the summer (i.e. "drafted X, performed due diligence for Y, etc."). Below the description of what you did, include a separate bullet point that says "received an offer to return." This will also help you spin your story about why you're looking around from before the interview even starts (i.e. really enjoyed Y and Z tasks and working for X type clients, so am looking around to see if maybe I can find somewhere that will maximize my chances to do that).

I think the #1 biggest concern for firms that are interviewing 3Ls who summered elsewhere is whether the person was no-offered. I did quite a few callbacks and it came up in almost every interview. Having it on my resume did two things: (1) it addressed the elephant in the room when the firm was deciding whether to interview me based on my resume/transcript; and (2) it let the interviewer say "so I see you got an offer to return, what prompted you to look around?" rather than "so did you get an offer to return (skeptically)?" Basically, it helped me start the interviews off on the right foot.

Hope that helps.

This is all great advice, thanks a lot.

[Anonymous User]

My firm won't tell us if we got offers for 1-2 weeks. Career services said to hold off on sending 3L apps until I have an offer, but will waiting until mid-August hurt me? Also, will having a 2L offer help someone with mediocre grades (like .03 below median at a mid-lower T14)?

[Anonymous User]

Wanted to confirm whether it's ok to email the hiring partner with recruiting cc'd?

[Anonymous User]

You won't be viewed the same. Firms know Fed gov usually doesn't hire out of law school, so they won't hold it against you. So, do not mention this in your cover letter.

The bolded was not my experience. It's probably true that firms do not view "strike outs" the same as "no offers." However, every firm I interviewed with asked me why I chose to work at an agency over the summer instead of a firm (and in some cases, grilled me on that "choice"). So you need to have a strong answer for that question during the interview, if applicable.

[Anonymous User]

You won't be viewed the same. Firms know Fed gov usually doesn't hire out of law school, so they won't hold it against you. So, do not mention this in your cover letter.

The bolded was not my experience. It's probably true that firms do not view "strike outs" the same as "no offers." However, every firm I interviewed with asked me why I chose to work at an agency over the summer instead of a firm (and in some cases, grilled me on that "choice"). So you need to have a strong answer for that question during the interview, if applicable.

Any tips on how to handle that question? How did things turn out for you?

[Anonymous User]

Covington ding this morning

[Anonymous User]

Covington ding this morning

City? Was it a Symplicity posting or a mass-mail?