Law Clerk, how bad is this? Forum

[Anonymous User]

Currently a 3L Law Clerk for a mid-sized firm in CA. I've been working here part time about 4 months, and hope to stay on as an Associate once I graduate. I'm assigned to a practice group that I really like the subject matter of (litigation). However, it seems that the mid-level associate who leads the group does not like me. We had a rocky start. I turned an assignment a little past the deadline. (He flipped, and I said that I was sorry and tried to prove myself afterwards). Things seemed to improve, and we even went out to lunch a few times.

About 2 weeks ago, I accidentally sent a memo to a client without the attorney signing off on the final version. He had reviewed the draft and complemented that it was really good, but marked up a few things for me to further research. I thought that meant that I could add in the missing information and send it to the client. Apparently he wanted to see the final version before it was sent. He flipped out.

Things have been super awkward between us that last 2 weeks, and I am trying to do the best job that I can. I only work part time, so the last time I was in the office was on Tuesday. The case manager talked to me Tuesday afternoon and told me that I will be assigned to a different team effective immediately. I am working tomorrow, and it will be my first day back in the office as well as my first day in the new practice group.

How bad is this situation? Can I fix this and repair my reputation at the firm?

[reasonable_man]

They transferred you - they didn't fire you. So that's a good thing. Attorneys expect to have to train younger attorneys. Its part of the job. But these are a bit worse than just careless mistakes. They are overt acts - which, frankly, were dumb. A few rules going forward:

- Only send something out after you confirm that it is ready to be sent out.
- If an assignment is going to be turned in late, discuss it ahead of time with the supervising attorney.
- Understand how little you know at this point and that sending something out without it being looked at a final time (as a law clerk) is really not good form.

At some point, not your first day back. You should seek out the Senior associate and apologize to him about what went down. Explain that it was a stupid thing for you to do and that you're a bit embarrassed about it because its not something you would normally do. Explain to him/her that you very much enjoyed and valued the time working with him and that you hope to have the chance to do so again in the future.

You're being reassigned for the purposes of being given a second chance. Really tread carefully, and be sure to fully understand the scope of each assignment and whether you should be the sending something out.

[Anonymous User]

im going to be honest with you. you did make some bad mistakes as a law clerk. there aren't too many deal breaking mistakes you can make as a law clerk because you don't really sign any court documents or advise clients.

but sending ANYTHING to real clients without attorney approval is absolutely a no no. also being late on assignment without notice ahead of time is also a no no. short of physically abusing someone at your firm i cannot imagine making worse work-related mistakes as a law clerk. these are clear acts of incompetence. i say this because i had been a law clerk at a shitty firm for a year and i've seen some shit.

i would also ask if this job is really something you want because it's hard to picture someone who is enthusiastic about his work making these kinds of mistakes. On a brighter side, the attorney clearly doesn't have the power or authority to fire you because he simply requested to have you work in another department. you are done with this particular attorney. just don't do this again and do your absolute best in your new department. after things settle down, you can try to apologize and make amends with this attorney if he's in the mood. but right now, i am pretty sure he doesn't want to see you.

[Anonymous User]

Original OP here. Thank you for the advise. I am worried that I have ruined my reputation at the firm, and will not get an offer. All the associates talk to each other. It's midlaw not biglaw, so all the associates know each other from the different departments.

I thought that being a Law Clerk would be getting training to be a lawyer, and thought that I had the competence (from having a BA and a MA from an Ivy league) to make edits to a reviewed memo and then send it to the client. I honestly did not think that the attorney had to review it again. He already looked at the first draft and complimented that it was really good -- with only a few edits and points for further research. Otherwise, what is the point of my role? I would feel like a paralegal or secretary, and not actually a Law Clerk training to be an associate.

[reasonable_man]

Original OP here. Thank you for the advise. I am worried that I have ruined my reputation at the firm, and will not get an offer. All the associates talk to each other. It's midlaw not biglaw, so all the associates know each other from the different departments.

I thought that being a Law Clerk would be getting training to be a lawyer, and thought that I had the competence (from having a BA and a MA from an Ivy league) to make edits to a reviewed memo and then send it to the client. I honestly did not think that the attorney had to review it again. He already looked at the first draft and complimented that it was really good -- with only a few edits and points for further research. Otherwise, what is the point of my role? I would feel like a paralegal or secretary, and not actually a Law Clerk training to be an associate.

I was a law clerk for much of law school. You rank below a secretary and a paralegal in the order of importance. Your Ivy league undergrad and Masters degree (much like your time in law school) mean absolutely shit - 3 in the real world. The legal profession is driven by experience, of which you have very little. I sort of gave you the benefit of the doubt in my advice above. But your follow up statements make it obvious that you are arrogant to a fault. Sending out work product without checking before sending it out is arrogant. Thinking that your timeline is the correct timeline, as opposed to the timeline set by the associate is arrogant. Thinking that your Ivy League credentials mean anything in the scheme of working at your law firm is arrogant.

Your reputation at your firm is most likely that of an arrogant person that thinks he knows best. I'd work on fixing that fast or start looking for a new job.

Above all else - realize something very important. You don't know anything yet. Nothing. Not a damn thing. Check with someone before taking a piss from now on. Believe me - that's better than what you've done so far.

[Arbinshire]

Gold. Absolute Gold.

[LaLiLuLeLo]

This is probably the quickest my opinion of an OP has done a 180. This has to be a flame.

[reasonable_man]

This is probably the quickest my opinion of an OP has done a 180. This has to be a flame.

I was kind of thinking that myself... If a flame - the execution is very well done. Trace-hints of narcissism / arrogance in the original opp, followed up by pure douchebaggery, but not in a combative way.

Op, if this is a flame - seriously - well done.

[lavarman84]

Original OP here. Thank you for the advise. I am worried that I have ruined my reputation at the firm, and will not get an offer. All the associates talk to each other. It's midlaw not biglaw, so all the associates know each other from the different departments.

I thought that being a Law Clerk would be getting training to be a lawyer, and thought that I had the competence (from having a BA and a MA from an Ivy league) to make edits to a reviewed memo and then send it to the client. I honestly did not think that the attorney had to review it again. He already looked at the first draft and complimented that it was really good -- with only a few edits and points for further research. Otherwise, what is the point of my role? I would feel like a paralegal or secretary, and not actually a Law Clerk training to be an associate.

You have to be trolling. Then again, maybe it comes off as trolling because it's such an accurate depiction of the arrogance you see from many people who went to Ivies.

You're not an attorney. You're lucky if they give you any client contact. You certainly aren't in the position to send things to clients without asking.

Plus, keep in mind that "really good" might mean "really good for a law clerk" not "so good that I am going to send this to the client without significant changes."

[reasonable_man]

Plus, keep in mind that "really good" might mean "really good for a law clerk" not "so good that I am going to send this to the client without significant changes."

Especially this... I have trained probably a dozen young clerks/associates over the years. I'm always careful to judge them based on their level of experience. And an outstanding job on an assignment by a law clerk, most like requires significant work before its ready to go out. I am always sure to give the final version (with redlines) to the younger associate/Law clerk, as a learning tool. But a "Great Job!" by a law clerk is generally not something that is ready to be sent to a client. It just means I don't have to start from square one when reviewing it.

[Anonymous User]

Original OP here. Thank you for the advise. I am worried that I have ruined my reputation at the firm, and will not get an offer. All the associates talk to each other. It's midlaw not biglaw, so all the associates know each other from the different departments.

I thought that being a Law Clerk would be getting training to be a lawyer, and thought that I had the competence (from having a BA and a MA from an Ivy league) to make edits to a reviewed memo and then send it to the client. I honestly did not think that the attorney had to review it again. He already looked at the first draft and complimented that it was really good -- with only a few edits and points for further research. Otherwise, what is the point of my role? I would feel like a paralegal or secretary, and not actually a Law Clerk training to be an associate.

i think you have a fundamental misunderstanding about what a law clerk is. Your job is to help your lawyer and in the process learn what you can, not take matters into your own hands and be your own lawyer. That memo you sent out is the reputation of your supervising attorney. Whether that memo was good or not is pointless. The problem is that you ignored your place and submitted that memo without his approval. Law clerks simply cannot operate like this.

Edit: I think we all just got low-lifed

[GoneSouth]

Original OP here. Thank you for the advise. I am worried that I have ruined my reputation at the firm, and will not get an offer. All the associates talk to each other. It's midlaw not biglaw, so all the associates know each other from the different departments.

I thought that being a Law Clerk would be getting training to be a lawyer, and thought that I had the competence (from having a BA and a MA from an Ivy league) to make edits to a reviewed memo and then send it to the client. I honestly did not think that the attorney had to review it again. He already looked at the first draft and complimented that it was really good -- with only a few edits and points for further research. Otherwise, what is the point of my role? I would feel like a paralegal or secretary, and not actually a Law Clerk training to be an associate.

I can't imagine why they would want to look over your work before it gets sent to a client

[Anonymous User]

Original OP here. Sorry, I didn't mean to come off as arrogant. I really thought it was fine to send the memo after the revisions because that draft was reviewed by the attorney once before. I did not think a second review was necessary because I thought the edits were pretty minor. The supervising associate flipped, and said that I need to have everything checked first before communicating with a client directly. When he was chewing me out, he brought up an incident that happened when I first started, which I thought we already resolved and moved past. Previously, I had sent a firm-created FAQ to a client. I noticed that some of the FAQ questions did not flow well in a easy-to-understand order (won't give an example because I don't want to be outed), but lets just say it was not easy to follow. I did not change any content, but I did re-arrange the FAQ questions before sending to the client. When the attorney found out, I had to have a meeting with him and the managing partner to discuss what happened. I honestly did not think this would have been a problem because I didn't change the content, only reorganize for flow. They said everything has to be reviewed by an attorney first, and I apologized and thought we moved on. I didn't think he would bring it up again.

According to everyone here, apparently my actions came off as ballsy, and I may have overstepped. I'm going to avoid that associate for a while for things to cool down, then apologize and maybe get him a Starbucks gift card or something.

Paralegals and secretaries are support staff, so I have always felt that Law Clerks outrank them. Law Clerks are in law school training to be associates and, at least at my mid-law firm, they have offices whereas the paras/secretaries sit in cubicles. Apparently that was the wrong assumption to make. Sorry.

Starting the new practice group today, hope the bridges have not been burned. Thanks for the help -- I'm going to double check my work plus make sure the new supervisor signs off on everything moving forward.

[edwardt1988]

Original OP here. Sorry, I didn't mean to come off as arrogant. I really thought it was fine to send the memo after the revisions because that draft was reviewed by the attorney once before. I did not think a second review was necessary because I though the edits were pretty minor. The supervising associate flipped, and said that I need to have everything checked first before communicating with a client directly. When he was chewing me out, he brought up an incident that happened when I first started, which I thought we already resolved and moved passed. Previously, I had sent a firm-created FAQ to a client. I noticed that some of the FAQ questions did not flow well in a easy-to-understand order (won't give an example because I don't want to be outed), but lets just say it was not easy to follow. I did not change any content, but I did re-arrange the FAQ questions before sending to the client. When the attorney found out, I had to have a meeting with him and the managing partner to discuss what happened. I honestly did not think this would have been a problem because I didn't change the content, only reorganize for flow. They said everything has to be reviewed by an attorney first, and I apologized and thought we moved on. I didn't think he would bring it up again.

According to everyone here, apparently my actions came off as ballsy, and I may have overstepped. I'm going to avoid that associate for a while for things to cool down, then apologize and maybe get him a Starbucks gift card or something.

Paralegals and secretaries are support staff, so I have always felt that Law Clerks outrank them. Law Clerks are in law school training to be associates and, at least at my mid-law firm, they have offices whereas the paras/secretaries sit in cubicles. Apparently that was the wrong assumption to make. Sorry.

Starting the new practice group today, hope the bridges have not been burned. Thanks for the help -- I'm going to double check my work plus make sure the new supervisor signs off on everything moving forward.

You can't be real

[incongruousmouse]

moved passed.

I understand why the partner wants to review your work.

[reasonable_man]

Original OP here. Sorry, I didn't mean to come off as arrogant. I really thought it was fine to send the memo after the revisions because that draft was reviewed by the attorney once before. I did not think a second review was necessary because I though the edits were pretty minor. The supervising associate flipped, and said that I need to have everything checked first before communicating with a client directly. When he was chewing me out, he brought up an incident that happened when I first started, which I thought we already resolved and moved passed. Previously, I had sent a firm-created FAQ to a client. I noticed that some of the FAQ questions did not flow well in a easy-to-understand order (won't give an example because I don't want to be outed), but lets just say it was not easy to follow. I did not change any content, but I did re-arrange the FAQ questions before sending to the client. When the attorney found out, I had to have a meeting with him and the managing partner to discuss what happened. I honestly did not think this would have been a problem because I didn't change the content, only reorganize for flow. They said everything has to be reviewed by an attorney first, and I apologized and thought we moved on. I didn't think he would bring it up again.

According to everyone here, apparently my actions came off as ballsy, and I may have overstepped. I'm going to avoid that associate for a while for things to cool down, then apologize and maybe get him a Starbucks gift card or something.

Paralegals and secretaries are support staff, so I have always felt that Law Clerks outrank them. Law Clerks are in law school training to be associates and, at least at my mid-law firm, they have offices whereas the paras/secretaries sit in cubicles. Apparently that was the wrong assumption to make. Sorry.

Starting the new practice group today, hope the bridges have not been burned. Thanks for the help -- I'm going to double check my work plus make sure the new supervisor signs off on everything moving forward.

To be honest. My firm would have fired you for both of these transgressions. This is the second time you've sent out work without review or permission to do so. There isn't a single partner in my firm that would stand for that.

A really good secretary that works for a partner with any juice potentially has more pull than a Jr. Associate. And for the record, as a law clerk, you should be learning from secretaries and paralegals (as well as attorneys).

[Anonymous User]

Original OP here.

1. I did not change any content of the FAQ, only reorganized the order of the questions.

2. The memo was reviewed by the attorney once before, so it's not like I just did my own thing and turned a draft document over to the client.

But I see your points reasonable_man. I see that I may have come off as arrogant, and I'm going to chalk this up as a learning experience. Obviously I'm not taking this matter lightly, otherwise I wouldn't be asking for advice here. I have been stressing out about this since Tuesday when I found out about the relocation to a new department, and barely slept last night. I'm up already, and it's barely 5am here in CA.

Not to mitigate the situation, but I did J-MA, and straight to JD. I have not had a lot of professional experience, so this is a huge learning curve for me.

[BaiAilian2013]

Original OP here. Sorry, I didn't mean to come off as arrogant. I really thought it was fine to send the memo after the revisions because that draft was reviewed by the attorney once before. I did not think a second review was necessary because I thought the edits were pretty minor. The supervising associate flipped, and said that I need to have everything checked first before communicating with a client directly. When he was chewing me out, he brought up an incident that happened when I first started, which I thought we already resolved and moved past. Previously, I had sent a firm-created FAQ to a client. I noticed that some of the FAQ questions did not flow well in a easy-to-understand order (won't give an example because I don't want to be outed), but lets just say it was not easy to follow. I did not change any content, but I did re-arrange the FAQ questions before sending to the client. When the attorney found out, I had to have a meeting with him and the managing partner to discuss what happened. I honestly did not think this would have been a problem because I didn't change the content, only reorganize for flow. They said everything has to be reviewed by an attorney first, and I apologized and thought we moved on. I didn't think he would bring it up again.

According to everyone here, apparently my actions came off as ballsy, and I may have overstepped. I'm going to avoid that associate for a while for things to cool down, then apologize and maybe get him a Starbucks gift card or something.

Paralegals and secretaries are support staff, so I have always felt that Law Clerks outrank them. Law Clerks are in law school training to be associates and, at least at my mid-law firm, they have offices whereas the paras/secretaries sit in cubicles. Apparently that was the wrong assumption to make. Sorry.

Starting the new practice group today, hope the bridges have not been burned. Thanks for the help -- I'm going to double check my work plus make sure the new supervisor signs off on everything moving forward.

To be clear, he brought it up again because you made the exact same mistake again. It sounds like you are still trying to justify your actions, which is probably why you didn't internalize the feedback the first time. Take this criticism seriously and actually learn from it this time or you are truly done at this firm.

And no Starbucks gift card. I can't articulate quite why, but no no no don't do that.

[pancakes3]

moved passed.

I understand why the partner wants to review your work.

Original OP here. Thank you for the advise.

[pancakes3]

OP, you don't "come off" as arrogant. you *are* arrogant. hth.

and yes, we understand what you did. rearranging is still not allowed. you don't GET client interaction. you are not a lawyer. if you're clerking at a barber shop, you don't get to cut hair. you don't get to even rearrange hair. the barber does. hth too.

[Anonymous User]

OP here.

Ok, got it. Based on unanimous consensus, I can see that I may have overstepped. Going to be more mindful moving forward and try to fix this.

pancakes 3, give me a break! Obviously, I am more mindful of grammar and spelling when submitting legal work in a professional setting, versus when posting anonymously on an online forum. Pointing out my mistakes in previous posts was not necessary or helpful.

[mvp99]

Every time you send something to a client, it's the attorney's ass on the line. You know that the attorney is responsible for everyone that works for the client? She/he can't make excuses like you. The LEAST you can do is ask first whether you can send out work product. I wouldn't because it's a waste of time, there's a presumption that you can't and you'll know if when you can send something out because he'll ask you to do it.

edit: But OP beyond being mindful, change your whole attitude which kept you from realizing you were making a mistake. Your mistake is pretty damn obvious. Good luck.

[baal hadad]

I refuse to believe this is real

[reasonable_man]

To be clear, he brought it up again because you made the exact same mistake again. It sounds like you are still trying to justify your actions, which is probably why you didn't internalize the feedback the first time. Take this criticism seriously and actually learn from it this time or you are truly done at this firm.

And no Starbucks gift card. I can't articulate quite why, but no no no don't do that.

Exactly this. I only went nuclear on you because it is so painfully obvious that you're not internalizing what was being said here and trying to continue to justify your actions. I had a junior associate (1st of 2nd year) do this to me once. He came to me, I re-worked the brief on a motion he was working on, etc. and he then disregarded the changes. The brief went out without my changes. His version was awful. The partner on the case confronted him and asked who looked at the brief before it went out. He told him that I had reviewed it. The partner came to my office - furious - asking how I could have let the brief go out that way. IT took me a few minutes to realize he didn't make my changes.. When I explained that to the partner - he lost his shit and that associate nearly lost his job... What bothered the partner more than anything was not the fact that the brief was awful. It was that the junior associate ignored the chain of command. The system cannot function without structure. The Junior associates report up the chain to the seniors and the seniors determine what level of involvement is needed from the partner for a particular task. When that breaks down - things go terribly wrong. As a junior associate or law clerk, you literally don't know what you don't know yet. You need years of experience before you're ready to be sending things out on your own.

Every time you send something to a client, it's the attorney's ass on the line. You know that the attorney is responsible for everyone that works for the client? She/he can't make excuses like you. The LEAST you can do is ask first whether you can send out work product. I wouldn't because it's a waste of time, there's a presumption that you can't and you'll know if when you can send something out because he'll ask you to do it.

edit: But OP beyond being mindful, change your whole attitude which kept you from realizing you were making a mistake. Your mistake is pretty damn obvious. Good luck.

This too.

[A. Nony Mouse]

I've been out of law school 5 years and in my current job almost 3, and the paralegals where I work are still more important than I am.