Ok to bring up hours? Forum

[Anonymous User]

I'm a junior corporate associate at an east coast V15 firm potentially looking to break into a difficult market (e.g., NorCal) in the near future for personal reasons. Would it be ok to mention that my hours are in the top 10% of my class year at my free market firm?

[rpupkin]

No.

If someone asks you about your hours, go ahead and tell them how much you've billed. But under no circumstances should you suggest that you're "in the top 10% of your class" for hours—or anything else—at your law firm.

[Anonymous User]

No.

If someone asks you about your hours, go ahead and tell them how much you've billed. But under no circumstances should you suggest that you're "in the top 10% of your class" for hours—or anything else—at your law firm.

Why not? Especially if that's what I was explicitly told (not guessing here)? That happened because of a combination of luck (meeting supportive seniors) and hard work (the purpose of which was to break into a specific tough market all along for personal reasons). This seems to be a lot more helpful for firms evaluating me and humble compared to people who put Magna at HLS or 3.96 GPA at Columbia UG on their resumes.

[Hutz_and_Goodman]

People who talk about their hours like this are annoying to be around. It's difficult to imagine me not thinking that someone who said he's in the top 10% of hours is a tool. In interviews you want to come off as someone who works hard but also who people want to work with.

[kcdc1]

Working a lot of hours is not an accomplishment. Acting like it is will annoy people around you.

[Anonymous User]

People who talk about their hours like this are annoying to be around. It's difficult to imagine me not thinking that someone who said he's in the top 10% of hours is a tool. In interviews you want to come off as someone who works hard but also who people want to work with.

How is this less acceptable than putting Magna from HLS or 3.96 UG GPA in Econ from Columbia on your resume? Is indicating that you work hard that much worse than bragging about how smart you are? Based on what I've seen, people want to work with those who work hard, are responsive and get stuff done. Yes, many hard workers brag about working nights and weekends. All associates, probably partners too, think those people are tools. Others work hard for specific reasons not related to for the sake of working hard or boosting ego.

How else do you indicate to prospective employers that you work hard?

[Anonymous User]

Working a lot of hours is not an accomplishment. Acting like it is will annoy people around you.

I agree, especially since the highest biller has the honor of receiving the lowest wage/hour. All I care about is what hiring partners (the only people to whom I might tell) will think. To all my peers, I'm just another junior in the middle of the pack.

[ek5dn]

People who talk about their hours like this are annoying to be around. It's difficult to imagine me not thinking that someone who said he's in the top 10% of hours is a tool. In interviews you want to come off as someone who works hard but also who people want to work with.

How is this less acceptable than putting Magna from HLS or 3.96 UG GPA in Econ from Columbia on your resume? Is indicating that you work hard that much worse than bragging about how smart you are? Based on what I've seen, people want to work with those who work hard, are responsive and get stuff done. Yes, many hard workers brag about working nights and weekends. All associates, probably partners too, think those people are tools. Others work hard for specific reasons not related to for the sake of working hard or boosting ego.

How else do you indicate to prospective employers that you work hard?

Quality - not quantity. If you can list notable projects/cases/deals yo've pulled off, let that speak for itself about how many hours you had to put in. Frankly, it's more impressive if you accomplish more in less time than if you just put in a lot of hours and have less to show for it

[jkpolk]

People who talk about their hours like this are annoying to be around. It's difficult to imagine me not thinking that someone who said he's in the top 10% of hours is a tool. In interviews you want to come off as someone who works hard but also who people want to work with.

How is this less acceptable than putting Magna from HLS or 3.96 UG GPA in Econ from Columbia on your resume? Is indicating that you work hard that much worse than bragging about how smart you are? Based on what I've seen, people want to work with those who work hard, are responsive and get stuff done. Yes, many hard workers brag about working nights and weekends. All associates, probably partners too, think those people are tools. Others work hard for specific reasons not related to for the sake of working hard or boosting ego.

How else do you indicate to prospective employers that you work hard?

No one cares if you "work hard". People care about your experience. Hours =/= experience.

[Anonymous User]

People who talk about their hours like this are annoying to be around. It's difficult to imagine me not thinking that someone who said he's in the top 10% of hours is a tool. In interviews you want to come off as someone who works hard but also who people want to work with.

How is this less acceptable than putting Magna from HLS or 3.96 UG GPA in Econ from Columbia on your resume? Is indicating that you work hard that much worse than bragging about how smart you are? Based on what I've seen, people want to work with those who work hard, are responsive and get stuff done. Yes, many hard workers brag about working nights and weekends. All associates, probably partners too, think those people are tools. Others work hard for specific reasons not related to for the sake of working hard or boosting ego.

How else do you indicate to prospective employers that you work hard?

No one cares if you "work hard". People care about your experience. Hours =/= experience.

At V15 free markets, number of hours often indicates experience and quality of work (again not guessing here), especially this year when corporate work is harder to come by. Plus, there's limited space on an one-page resume.

[Anonymous User]

Clearly, you've already made up your mind to bring up hours, so instead of justifying your reasons to us, you might as well stop wasting everyone's time lol not trying to be rude or anything, but why ask if you're not going to listen?

[dixiecupdrinking]

No one will be impressed. Your job is not like law school. There is no magna cum laude for second year associates. The point is not to churn a ton of hours, it's to do as much work as is necessary to get the job done right. You seem hellbent on including this, so go ahead, but it indicates a lack of judgment.

[kcdc1]

How else do you indicate to prospective employers that you work hard?

Working hard is assumed. It's a baseline expectation that doesn't separate you from anyone else in the field -- or countless people outside the field for that matter. From a hiring perspective, what matters are your skills and experience. Grinding lots of hours on menial tasks demonstrates neither.

Additionally, acting like hours alone should impress will be off-putting to the people making the hiring decision. Partners and associates will be rightfully focused on results and keeping clients happy, and in order to serve those objectives, working long hours will often be necessary. But long hours are not an end to themselves -- most people would rather spend time with their families or pursue interests than grind away at work. Acting like you're superior due to your hours total suggests misplaced priorities that would make you unpleasant to work with.

[GoneSouth]

No.

If someone asks you about your hours, go ahead and tell them how much you've billed. But under no circumstances should you suggest that you're "in the top 10% of your class" for hours—or anything else—at your law firm.

Why not? Especially if that's what I was explicitly told (not guessing here)? That happened because of a combination of luck (meeting supportive seniors) and hard work (the purpose of which was to break into a specific tough market all along for personal reasons). This seems to be a lot more helpful for firms evaluating me and humble compared to people who put Magna at HLS or 3.96 GPA at Columbia UG on their resumes.

Why did you come on here to ask a question but then fight back when somebody gives you an answer? If you already know what you want to do, do it.

[Anonymous User]

If by hard to crack place you mean Wachtell and by personal reasons you mean to make a lot of money, could be helpful to bring up hours. Doesn't sound like you're exceptional enough though (that is top 10% at GDC might not make the cut though, need to be highest at V5).

http://www.gq.com/story/mr-miss-universe-jeff-lee

[Nebby]

People who talk about their hours like this are annoying to be around. It's difficult to imagine me not thinking that someone who said he's in the top 10% of hours is a tool. In interviews you want to come off as someone who works hard but also who people want to work with.

How is this less acceptable than putting Magna from HLS or 3.96 UG GPA in Econ from Columbia on your resume? Is indicating that you work hard that much worse than bragging about how smart you are? Based on what I've seen, people want to work with those who work hard, are responsive and get stuff done. Yes, many hard workers brag about working nights and weekends. All associates, probably partners too, think those people are tools. Others work hard for specific reasons not related to for the sake of working hard or boosting ego.

How else do you indicate to prospective employers that you work hard?

Just do it you weirdo, since it's clear you made up your mind before you even posted the OP. Why even ask if you're unwilling to digest opinions divergent from yours?

[FSK]

Sounds like biglaw is for you my friend.

[Anonymous User]

Don't bring this up explicitly. List your deals (anonymize if you have to) and be prepared to talk in detail about your role on each of them. If you can do that, people will know you billed a lot of hours and you won't run the risk of causing an immediate negative reaction like you are getting ITT. A lot of people do not like people who brag about hours.

It really isn't like law school grades. Firms don't have "hours cutoffs" for laterals like they do for GPA.

[jkpolk]

People who talk about their hours like this are annoying to be around. It's difficult to imagine me not thinking that someone who said he's in the top 10% of hours is a tool. In interviews you want to come off as someone who works hard but also who people want to work with.

How is this less acceptable than putting Magna from HLS or 3.96 UG GPA in Econ from Columbia on your resume? Is indicating that you work hard that much worse than bragging about how smart you are? Based on what I've seen, people want to work with those who work hard, are responsive and get stuff done. Yes, many hard workers brag about working nights and weekends. All associates, probably partners too, think those people are tools. Others work hard for specific reasons not related to for the sake of working hard or boosting ego.

How else do you indicate to prospective employers that you work hard?

No one cares if you "work hard". People care about your experience. Hours =/= experience.

At V15 free markets, number of hours often indicates experience and quality of work (again not guessing here), especially this year when corporate work is harder to come by. Plus, there's limited space on an one-page resume.

I love this. "Thing A is often a proxy for Thing B. People care about Thing B. Therefore, I'll tell them about Thing A." Also a helpful tip, at this point your resume should be entirely deal experience with two lines at the bottom with UG and LS.

[rpupkin]

No.

If someone asks you about your hours, go ahead and tell them how much you've billed. But under no circumstances should you suggest that you're "in the top 10% of your class" for hours—or anything else—at your law firm.

Why not? Especially if that's what I was explicitly told (not guessing here)? That happened because of a combination of luck (meeting supportive seniors) and hard work (the purpose of which was to break into a specific tough market all along for personal reasons). This seems to be a lot more helpful for firms evaluating me and humble compared to people who put Magna at HLS or 3.96 GPA at Columbia UG on their resumes.

There's a lot wrong here. First, your last sentence is incorrect: when evaluating a junior associate, a high law school GPA or class rank is more relevant than the "rank" of your hours billed. If a first-year associate is billing a ton of hours, I don't assume that the first-year is doing high quality work. I just assume they happened to get staffed on a couple of busy cases/matters. For all I know, the high billing volume could be due to massive inefficiency. In my experience, there isn't much correlation between first-year billing quantity and associate quality.

Look, dude, I work in one of the two markets you mentioned. If a prospective lateral bragged during an interview that they were in "the top 10% in hours in my class" as a junior associate, it would be fatal to their chances. It would make you seem weirdly competitive and unlikable. But it sounds like you really want to mention your hours "rank" for some reason, so go ahead. No one is stopping you.

[rpupkin]

I love this. "Thing A is often a proxy for Thing B. People care about Thing B. Therefore, I'll tell them about Thing A." Also a helpful tip, at this point your resume should be entirely deal experience with two lines at the bottom withUG and LS.

This is poor advice for a junior associate.

[Redfactor]

Yes, many hard workers brag about working nights and weekends. All associates, probably partners too, think those people are tools.

How is this different?

accidental anon

redfactor

[KaNa1986]

People tend not to care about hours alone. As mentioned before, treating hours as the end-all shows poor judgement. However, if you're the top billing junior at Kirkland, worked on 20 different projects in one year, worked mostly with seniors and partners, then mentioning you're hours could be ok. However, if you're that kind of person, you probably don't need to mention your hours anyway (and you better really like practicing law).

[wons]

.

[gregfootball2001]

At V15 free markets, number of hours often indicates experience and quality of work (again not guessing here), especially this year when corporate work is harder to come by. Plus, there's limited space on an one-page resume.

If this is true, then putting your experience should help indicate your hours. It also comes with the added benefit of not sounding like a douche.